Page 5 of 8 FirstFirst 12345678 LastLast
Results 81 to 100 of 158

Thread: [Amendment(s)] Curial Overhaul Order 66

  1. #81
    Hader's Avatar Things are very seldom what they seem. In my experience, they’re usually a damn sight worse.
    Moderator Emeritus Administrator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    13,192
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: [Amendment(s)] Curial Overhaul Order 66

    Quote Originally Posted by Garbarsardar View Post
    I don't see any problem with the position of PP being permanent. Given the usual turnaround time in staff positions, permanent means about 6 months. The only position on the site that has (usually) longer tenure is the Tribunes. Given the high requirements for PP, do we really expect a huge influx of candidates?
    This is the initial thinking behind the decision for a permanent office. Though I am open to perhaps doing a 1 year term limit instead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Garbarsardar View Post
    As to the contentious issue of opening the Prothalamus, a probable compromise would be a provisional opening for,say, 6 months, and a final decision then, after evaluating the effects, impact, fallout, benefits etc.
    My issue with that is it doesn't feel like a compromise at all. That essentially relegates it to a trial period, a relatively short one I feel for such a potentially important change. I think it can give too much to the idea that "well, this is only temporary, so why take it as seriously?". It doesn't cement the change for anyone, citizens may too easily view it as not permanent so not worth taking fully seriously, and the non citizens that may participate in that short period may also not take it seriously since they know they face what is sure to be a very contentious review at that 6 month point.

    Or in short, I don't think that is going to give a fair assessment of the merit of opening the proth. If it isn't brought on as a permanent change, people may not treat it as such and we don't get an honest assessment of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katsumoto View Post
    I think a provisional opening of the Proth for 6 months would indeed be a good compromise. As for the rest of the proposal:

    1) I concur with the sentiment about Praefects judging both infractions and referrals - doesn't really sit right me. The whole set-up seems a bit complicated to be honest, I do think the Dual Consulship with one Consul serving as a moderator was a more elegant solution to the issue of Curial moderation.

    3) Doesn't make much sense to use Censor if that's not their job anymore. I would suggest renaming it, creating a new badge is not difficult.
    I intended for the role to also add something more to the Curia in the form of a curial officer position, and multiple ones at that. To add a pretty well defined role, one that deals with moderation in the broadest sense, and not tack that on to the Consul as an additional duty. I know StealhFox for instance prefers to not diminish the role of the Consul, and while this certainly does this to some degree, I'm in the camp of giving those few more offices for the curia and its citizens to fill and spread out that curial work some. Hopefully that can (along with other things) bring more people together in the curia and get the ball rolling on more things overall. We don't need CdeC levels in terms of how many citizens are actively in some sort of office, but a few more besides one Curator, two Censors and assistants I think it a necessary step if the Curia ever does want to expand and contribute more to the site overall. Piling more on the Consul is unfair and unnecessary, and while a dual Consulship can solve potential workload issues, I don't think it is going to do much in terms of actually expanding the role and using that to also expand what the Curia as a whole could eventually do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Katsumoto View Post
    3) Doesn't make much sense to use Censor if that's not their job anymore. I would suggest renaming it, creating a new badge is not difficult.
    I just felt it better to keep the name and office and badge and shift it into a role that still fits practically if not necessarily in the spirit of what it is named for. I wouldn't oppose a future change to the name and badge on those grounds if people want it to be more fitting, though I more find the important part of this one is shifting Consular assistants to an official group separate from the same as the Consul's now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Katsumoto View Post

    6) This role seems a bit unnecessary.

    In general I think this proposal is fine, but I do hope this wasn't intended as some revitalizing shock to the system that would fire up the Curia again, because I don't see much here that would really facilitate that.
    As has been said, and I have admitted, it is rough around the edges. It's a difficult thing to really get a handle on how it can truly be most beneficial to the Curia, Staff and the site, but I hope it to be a framework and springboard for ideas to actually expand it into something more meaningful later on. As it is now, it is pretty barebones and definitely not sustainable without revision and expansion in the future.


    Quote Originally Posted by Elfdude View Post
    I'm currently opposed due to the permanent appointment. While I don't think it's likely we'll have an influx of candidates nor do I think it's likely for someone to abuse their position I think you should write policy on guard for potential misuse not based on the presumption of maturity or goodwill. With this in mind I see the potential issues arising from the permanent appointment and the double judgement of the same case to be egregious. I don't mind the rest of the proposal.
    I'll be considering the term limit, probably of one year.

    I feel like not giving the praefect position jurisdiction over the referral process really defeats half the purpose of having the office. While I'm still behind having them primarily be moderators, even in the worst cases of the proth being open to all and citizens and non citizens getting infractions at alarming rates, that job split between three people will still not have much to do otherwise, and even feels wrong to put more of a tribunal process on the Consul and Censors still when there is an office of three people already in the business of ToS stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitai de Bodemloze View Post
    Why do you believe that opening up the Prothalamos is the best or only way forward? We have enough citizens, the problem is that most citizens don't want to come to the Curia. To use a poor analogy, opening up the Prothalamos is marketing to the wrong audience. We can already see that the problem we have is retaining active citizens and giving people useful and fun things to do here. If we don't solve that problem, then I don't see how opening up the Prothalamos is going to help. I have always said that the solution to our problems is additive, rather than subtractive; give citizens more things to do, not take things away from them. In the aftermath of such a decision, what incentive is there for citizens to come (or come back) to the Curia? What incentive do non-citizens even have to participate? If we can't encourage current citizens to come here now, then what makes you think non-citizens will be any different?
    Because in the past years I have not seen anything from the Curia that proves it's going to get much of anywhere without it.

    Opening the prothalamos is not meant to get those inactive citizens back of course, nor is it meant to devalue citizenship just for the hell of it. It's meant to be enough of a drastic change in an important aspect of the Curia to hopefully drive that change and meaningful future input.

    I'm not entirely for the idea of just giving citizens more to do as a solution to everything, or much at all, but can be to an extent in the right way. The Praefect position is something that is giving citizens more to do. The liaison position at first may not be much for citizens, but can be with the right direction in growing the idea.

    The incentive for citizens to come to the Curia doesn't change. The prothalamos does not change in function, only has more potential members coming to it to contribute to discussion. Citizens still hold the vote while members do not. And I do not expect it to open the floodgates and have a plethora of non citizens in here causing trouble (there would be curial moderation after all), but it breaks down any barriers between citizens and members as far as discussion goes, which I think is going to go a lot farther in getting the curia towards actually getting stuff done. Perhaps it may not, but I have not seen anything in the past years that is coming close and I feel this has a better chance at this point. Opening the proth, alongside the other changes in this proposal, is supposed to be the first big step in helping citizens and non citizens care about this place a bit more and perhaps start getting it to a place where that incentive to be and stay here is actually here.



    =====

    I will get back to replies after the last quoted tomorrow.

  2. #82
    Commissar Caligula_'s Avatar The Ecstasy of Potatoes
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    The alcoves in the Koningin Astridpark
    Posts
    5,876

    Default Re: [Amendment(s)] Curial Overhaul Order 66

    Well I mean there's a reason you're the guys with the red names... override the Curia and force it through



  3. #83
    ♔atthias♔'s Avatar dutch speaking
    Citizen

    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    France
    Posts
    4,059

    Default Re: [Amendment(s)] Curial Overhaul Order 66

    let only the consul be a morderator plus the perfects but there is no need for a primus perfect IMHO

    other than that I will gladly support it if that bit is solved for me because I think we need to try something new
    Rise of Mordor 3D Modelers Wanted
    Total War - Rise of Mordor
    Are you a 3D Environment and Character artist, or a Character Animator?

    If yes, then the Rise of Mordor team linked above is looking for you!
    Massive Overhaul Submod Units!
    D you want some units back in MOS 1.7? Install this mod http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...n-1-1-RELEASED
    It adds back units who were deleted from the campaign in MOS 1.7, namely the Winged Swordsmen, the Citadel Guard Archers and the Gondor Dismounted Bodyguard.

    Under the proud patronage of
    Frunk of the house of Siblesz

  4. #84
    Leonardo's Avatar Reborn Old Timer
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Southern Sweden
    Posts
    5,245

    Default Re: [Amendment(s)] Curial Overhaul Order 66

    I want to suggest a compromise and it is like this.

    1. Cut out the 6th suggestion in this proposal as it seems complicated, probably too complicated, and I even don't fully understand it.
    2. Let the Primus Praefect be in place for a year, but for two 6 months term with an election after 6 months then the new Primus Praefect will continue a second term.

    After a year evaluate the Primus Praefect position and make the necessary changes, should there be anything to alter.


    I agree with atthias, it's about time we try something new and different.
    Under patronage of General Brewster of the Imperial House of Hader.





    How to make Morrowind less buggy for new players - Of course every player may find it useful.

  5. #85

    Default Re: [Amendment(s)] Curial Overhaul Order 66

    I am not in agreement with the agreement of trying something different. The last time we did that is when the CdeC was removed. We spent years plugging the gaps of that decision and by the looks of it, we still are.

    The central premise f the proposal is that the Curia has been ripe with ToS violations, but there is no evidence that is the case. One could argue that the Curia had many disingenuous discussions, but enforcing the ToS is not going to enforce that. The untinted consequence of this proposal would put the Prefect has judge and jury of any staff referrals, which was precisely why we created the Censor positions in the first place. I do not feel we did anything different, but just going into circles.

    The other issue is opening up the Prothalomos. However, this ignores the underlining problem. We have active citizens who do not or no longer engage in any discussions, and in many cases, do not vote on any proposals. Many simply do not feel it is worth any time giving feedback or suggestions. Allowing non-citizens seems like the proverbial, avoiding the Christmas rush, by having "newer" member become frustrated sooner. In other words, it fails to address the cause, just the symptom.

    Then there is this...
    Opening the prothalamos is not meant to get those inactive citizens back of course, nor is it meant to devalue citizenship just for the hell of it. It's meant to be enough of a drastic change in an important aspect of the Curia to hopefully drive that change and meaningful future input./....he prothalamos does not change in function, only has more potential members coming to it to contribute to discussion.
    In the past, we had a forum for non-citizens. It was hardly ever used. We have the CCT, which is also hardly used. In fact, when I joined, it was more active. You know where those people are now? If you guessed, here in the Curia, then you are right.
    Again, what is the point of devaluing the very thing that makes this site unique and then gains nothing from it?

    If you want future input, then that is the question you need to start with to figure out the solution.

  6. #86
    Iskar's Avatar Insanity with Dignity
    Moderator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Frankfurt, München, somtimes my beloved Rhineland
    Posts
    6,395

    Default Re: [Amendment(s)] Curial Overhaul Order 66

    You keep talking of the supposed devaluation of the Curia and Citizenship as if they were equivalent. However, the vast majority of Citizens on this site does not care squat about the Curia at all and values their Citizenship nonetheless, just differently. It is only us twenty-something leftovers that would possibly tie our value of citizenship to the value of the Curia. You're going in circles running after your own tail and miss the rest of what is going on.
    Last edited by Iskar; December 28, 2018 at 05:45 AM.
    "Non i titoli illustrano gli uomini, ma gli uomini i titoli." - Niccolo Machiavelli, Discorsi
    "Du musst die Sterne und den Mond enthaupten, und am besten auch den Zar. Die Gestirne werden sich behaupten, aber wahrscheinlich nicht der Zar." - Einstürzende Neubauten, Weil, Weil, Weil

    On an eternal crusade for reason, logics, catholicism and chocolate. Mostly chocolate, though.

    I can heartily recommend the Italian Wars mod by Aneirin.
    In exile, but still under the patronage of the impeccable Aikanár, alongside Aneirin. Humble patron of Cyclops, Frunk and Abdülmecid I.

  7. #87

    Default Re: [Amendment(s)] Curial Overhaul Order 66

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    You keep talking of the supposed devaluation of the Curia and Citizenship as if they were equivalent. However, the vast majority of Citizens on this site does not care squat about the Curia at all and values their Citizenship nonetheless, just differently. It is only us twenty-something leftovers that would possibly tie our value of citizenship to the value of the Curia. You're going in circles running after your own tail and miss the rest of what is going on.
    The Curia is citizenship. The Curia is the collection of citizens. The Curia, the institution, is the means in which a citizen expresses their concerns and suggestions for the site. This perspective is based entirely on my research on the history of the site and comments made by citizens of this site.

    I do believe that certain members have a social idealism that is inconsistent with how this site would best function. I am, ironically, one of them, but probably for different reasons than anyone reading this now.

    I will not argue there is one way only. I teach students to consider new ideas and to be open-minded every day. I would be remiss to be any other way. There is more than one way to skin a cat. That being said, I have yet read any argument that is remotely convincing (the doing something different because it is a different argument) to adopt a different way.

  8. #88
    Leonardo's Avatar Reborn Old Timer
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Southern Sweden
    Posts
    5,245

    Default Re: [Amendment(s)] Curial Overhaul Order 66

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    The Curia is citizenship. The Curia is the collection of citizens. The Curia, the institution, is the means in which a citizen expresses their concerns and suggestions for the site. This perspective is based entirely on my research on the history of the site and comments made by citizens of this site.

    I do believe that certain members have a social idealism that is inconsistent with how this site would best function. I am, ironically, one of them, but probably for different reasons than anyone reading this now.

    I will not argue there is one way only. I teach students to consider new ideas and to be open-minded every day. I would be remiss to be any other way. There is more than one way to skin a cat. That being said, I have yet read any argument that is remotely convincing (the doing something different because it is a different argument) to adopt a different way.
    C'mon Pike, you cannot rely only to the history of TWC and the previous made suggestions for the site.

    Also, what you do in RL has nothing to do with what can happen on TWC and the current system in the Curia doesn't seem to work, so I say it's about time we try something new and doing that wouldn't hurt would it.
    Last edited by Leonardo; December 29, 2018 at 06:07 AM.
    Under patronage of General Brewster of the Imperial House of Hader.





    How to make Morrowind less buggy for new players - Of course every player may find it useful.

  9. #89
    Iskar's Avatar Insanity with Dignity
    Moderator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Frankfurt, München, somtimes my beloved Rhineland
    Posts
    6,395

    Default Re: [Amendment(s)] Curial Overhaul Order 66

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    The Curia is citizenship. The Curia is the collection of citizens. The Curia, the institution, is the means in which a citizen expresses their concerns and suggestions for the site. This perspective is based entirely on my research on the history of the site and comments made by citizens of this site.

    I do believe that certain members have a social idealism that is inconsistent with how this site would best function. I am, ironically, one of them, but probably for different reasons than anyone reading this now.

    I will not argue there is one way only. I teach students to consider new ideas and to be open-minded every day. I would be remiss to be any other way. There is more than one way to skin a cat. That being said, I have yet read any argument that is remotely convincing (the doing something different because it is a different argument) to adopt a different way.
    Repeating already addressed points - reference to "historical research" on the site - irrelevant statement about oneself - teaching reference.

    Thanks but no thanks. There is only so much bad debating one can take. I'll be back for the vote, consider my support for this unhindered by any future changes unless stated explicitly otherwise.
    "Non i titoli illustrano gli uomini, ma gli uomini i titoli." - Niccolo Machiavelli, Discorsi
    "Du musst die Sterne und den Mond enthaupten, und am besten auch den Zar. Die Gestirne werden sich behaupten, aber wahrscheinlich nicht der Zar." - Einstürzende Neubauten, Weil, Weil, Weil

    On an eternal crusade for reason, logics, catholicism and chocolate. Mostly chocolate, though.

    I can heartily recommend the Italian Wars mod by Aneirin.
    In exile, but still under the patronage of the impeccable Aikanár, alongside Aneirin. Humble patron of Cyclops, Frunk and Abdülmecid I.

  10. #90

    Default Re: [Amendment(s)] Curial Overhaul Order 66

    Quote Originally Posted by Leonardo View Post
    C'mon Pike, you cannot rely only to the history of TWC and the previous made suggestions for the site.
    Also, what you do in RL has nothing to do with what can happen on TWC and the current system in the Curia doesn't seem to work, so I say it's about time we try something new and doing that wouldn't hurt would it.
    The question that the current state is unworkable is an obvious conclusion. This site is failing because it has not evolved. It has not evolved because most (meaning citizens) care to offer suggestions. Moreover, the site has done little to be receptive to any suggestions or criticism. Trying "something" is an option, but that something actually needs to address the cause of the disease, not the symptoms.

    The internet is as much part of real life as anything else. It does not exist in a vacuum. An appeal to have an open mind is hardly limiting in any aspect of "life."

  11. #91
    Leonardo's Avatar Reborn Old Timer
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Southern Sweden
    Posts
    5,245

    Default Re: [Amendment(s)] Curial Overhaul Order 66

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    The question that the current state is unworkable is an obvious conclusion. This site is failing because it has not evolved. It has not evolved because most (meaning citizens) care to offer suggestions.
    I'm with Iskar here and this post hasn't convinced me one bit about how the Curia should actually work and keep talking about the same thing over and over again is a waste of time IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    Moreover, the site has done little to be receptive to any suggestions or criticism. Trying "something" is an option, but that something actually needs to address the cause of the disease, not the symptoms.
    I find that to be nothing than a contradiction, because the actual disease is what symptoms a thing has e.g decline of the site, non-members with a few citizens doesn't value citizenship anymore and that's the symptons of a disease.

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    The internet is as much part of real life as anything else. It does not exist in a vacuum. An appeal to have an open mind is hardly limiting in any aspect of "life."
    I concur to what Iskar said and I'll follow his example and that's stay out of the discussion until it gets moved to vote.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    Repeating already addressed points - reference to "historical research" on the site - irrelevant statement about oneself - teaching reference.

    Thanks but no thanks. There is only so much bad debating one can take. I'll be back for the vote, consider my support for this unhindered by any future changes unless stated explicitly otherwise.
    Under patronage of General Brewster of the Imperial House of Hader.





    How to make Morrowind less buggy for new players - Of course every player may find it useful.

  12. #92
    ♔Greek Strategos♔'s Avatar THE BEARDED MACE
    Artifex Moderator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Athens, Greece
    Posts
    11,588

    Default Re: [Amendment(s)] Curial Overhaul Order 66

    Quote Originally Posted by ♔atthias♔ View Post
    let only the consul be a morderator plus the perfects but there is no need for a primus perfect IMHO

    other than that I will gladly support it if that bit is solved for me because I think we need to try something new
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonardo View Post
    I want to suggest a compromise and it is like this.

    1. Cut out the 6th suggestion in this proposal as it seems complicated, probably too complicated, and I even don't fully understand it.
    2. Let the Primus Praefect be in place for a year, but for two 6 months term with an election after 6 months then the new Primus Praefect will continue a second term.

    After a year evaluate the Primus Praefect position and make the necessary changes, should there be anything to alter.

    I agree with atthias, it's about time we try something new and different.
    Plus one. I have checked most of the other replies and I think it's about time. Support!

  13. #93

    Default Re: [Amendment(s)] Curial Overhaul Order 66

    Quote Originally Posted by Leonardo View Post
    I'm with Iskar here and this post hasn't convinced me one bit about how the Curia should actually work and keep talking about the same thing over and over again is a waste of time IMO.
    That's what happens when people make repetitive points, it tends to become circular.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leonardo View Post
    I find that to be nothing than a contradiction, because the actual disease is what symptoms a thing has e.g decline of the site, non-members with a few citizens doesn't value citizenship anymore and that's the symptons of a disease.
    Here is another example; the site has failed to evolve and thus its usefulness in the community has waned. Forum Magnum and the Q&S forum which includes the CCT has rarely if ever provide any insight. If there is something, it is usually driven by citizens anyway. Now, here is the same thing over and over again; opening the Prothalomos will not magically produce interest over a community that has effectively given up providing any suggestions for the future of the site. Again, it is the symptom that is being dealt with, not the disease. The goal should be to promote community efficicacy.

  14. #94

    Default Re: [Amendment(s)] Curial Overhaul Order 66

    Item 4 is sacrilegious and would overturn a 15 year precedent. It would require a more pronounced decentralisation of power from executive to legislative to justify.

    I would oppose this.

    The rest I support.
    Well, if I, Belisarius, the Black Prince, and you all agree on something, I really don't think there can be any further discussion.
    - Simetrical 2009 in reply to Ferrets54

  15. #95
    Iskar's Avatar Insanity with Dignity
    Moderator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Frankfurt, München, somtimes my beloved Rhineland
    Posts
    6,395

    Default Re: [Amendment(s)] Curial Overhaul Order 66

    Quote Originally Posted by Belisarius View Post
    Item 4 is sacrilegious and would overturn a 15 year precedent. It would require a more pronounced decentralisation of power from executive to legislative to justify.

    I would oppose this.

    The rest I support.
    There is no legislative or executive structure on the site and the Curia has no power to shift around at all. All authority rests with the Administration at the behest of the site owner and any consideration of lofty "precedents" on "power" distribution between imaginary branches of a government that is not a government is chasing ghostly notions that may have meant something when it was still The Curia vs Ogre Net but are just empty shells by now.
    "Non i titoli illustrano gli uomini, ma gli uomini i titoli." - Niccolo Machiavelli, Discorsi
    "Du musst die Sterne und den Mond enthaupten, und am besten auch den Zar. Die Gestirne werden sich behaupten, aber wahrscheinlich nicht der Zar." - Einstürzende Neubauten, Weil, Weil, Weil

    On an eternal crusade for reason, logics, catholicism and chocolate. Mostly chocolate, though.

    I can heartily recommend the Italian Wars mod by Aneirin.
    In exile, but still under the patronage of the impeccable Aikanár, alongside Aneirin. Humble patron of Cyclops, Frunk and Abdülmecid I.

  16. #96

    Default Re: [Amendment(s)] Curial Overhaul Order 66

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    There is no legislative or executive structure on the site and the Curia has no power to shift around at all. All authority rests with the Administration at the behest of the site owner and any consideration of lofty "precedents" on "power" distribution between imaginary branches of a government that is not a government is chasing ghostly notions that may have meant something when it was still The Curia vs Ogre Net but are just empty shells by now.
    You are conflating different things. There was an administration when the site was owned by ogre.net. There was six-member administration that managed the site, thus the term "hex." The Curia was created by this administration.

    Ogre.net, Ian, Garb, and GED all have the same thing in common. The site owner and the Curia's relationship has always been the same, except, ironically, ogre.net probably gave more freedom for the administrators of the site to act more independently than Ian, garb, and GED.

    The original preamble
    This document exists to define the roles of the bodies that run and govern this site and community. The guiding principle of the site is to be that barring technical or fiscal obstacles, any considered mandate from the appropriate legislative body of contributing members will be implemented by the Administrators.
    Of course, the Curia shot itself when it changed it to this
    It is the goal of the Curia to foster all communities within the forums of Total War Center, and in this spirit the Curia serves as an advisory group to, and an awards committee for, the site.Within this document lie the principles of the Curia and of Citizenship. Footnotes expand upon the basic principles; whilst not crucial, they are included for administrative purposes.
    It certainly did itself nor the site any favors by changing it.

  17. #97

    Default Re: [Amendment(s)] Curial Overhaul Order 66

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    There is no legislative or executive structure on the site and the Curia has no power to shift around at all. All authority rests with the Administration at the behest of the site owner and any consideration of lofty "precedents" on "power" distribution between imaginary branches of a government that is not a government is chasing ghostly notions that may have meant something when it was still The Curia vs Ogre Net but are just empty shells by now.
    There is decentralisation of awards and community management, I said further decentralisation would be required. I didn't necessarily say it should be. I also like how people still think it was Orges who caused the strife, it was a faction of the community who used Ogre that caused all the trouble.
    Well, if I, Belisarius, the Black Prince, and you all agree on something, I really don't think there can be any further discussion.
    - Simetrical 2009 in reply to Ferrets54

  18. #98
    Flinn's Avatar His Dudeness of TWC
    Patrician Citizen Content Emeritus Administrator Emeritus Gaming Emeritus

    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Italy
    Posts
    20,306
    Blog Entries
    46

    Default Re: [Amendment(s)] Curial Overhaul Order 66

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    I'll be back for the vote, consider my support for this unhindered by any future changes unless stated explicitly otherwise.
    this is my stance as well, unless I'll state differently Hader's proposal has my full support, in all its istances
    Under the patronage of Finlander, patron of Lugotorix & Lifthrasir & joerock22 & Socrates1984 & Kilo11 & Vladyvid & Dick Cheney & phazer & Jake Armitage & webba 84 of the Imperial House of Hader

  19. #99
    Hader's Avatar Things are very seldom what they seem. In my experience, they’re usually a damn sight worse.
    Moderator Emeritus Administrator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    13,192
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: [Amendment(s)] Curial Overhaul Order 66

    Quote Originally Posted by ♔atthias♔ View Post
    let only the consul be a morderator plus the perfects but there is no need for a primus perfect IMHO

    other than that I will gladly support it if that bit is solved for me because I think we need to try something new
    Then who reviews a Consul's moderation actions should that come to referral? The three praefect positions are there mainly to maintain that balance like in the tribunal and triumvirate, and the emphasis on the primus praefect position is there to have some experience added to the position that would not be too fleeting or pointless. Simply cutting out the primus position I feel undercuts the reasons for having the office at all in that case.

    I had the thought after seeing the dual consulship proposal of something like that, with instead one Consul in the primus praefect spot, but then I feel the issues that causes with having what is essentially two consuls but one focuses on moderation and the other doesn't (and with no defined way of splitting duties) can cause more issues than this would in the case of curial infractions and staff referrals from them.

    If the curia in the future (assuming this passes) would wanted to make the position a Consul position, and do a dual consulship then, I wouldn't be entirely opposed to that, but I am still on the side of there needs to be the rank distinction between them to avoid more issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leonardo View Post
    I want to suggest a compromise and it is like this.

    1. Cut out the 6th suggestion in this proposal as it seems complicated, probably too complicated, and I even don't fully understand it.
    2. Let the Primus Praefect be in place for a year, but for two 6 months term with an election after 6 months then the new Primus Praefect will continue a second term.

    After a year evaluate the Primus Praefect position and make the necessary changes, should there be anything to alter.
    Item 6 I wouldn't call too complicated in its current state, though perhaps my explanation for it makes it seem so. It has potential to become pretty complex though, but as it stands is a fairly simple thing and definitely won't amount to much unless expanded upon in the future. If you don't understand part of it let me know what parts and maybe I can explain it differently.

    A ratification after 6 months may be alright, though I just feel unnecessary. I will be adding the 1 year term for the primus praefect in for sure though, beyond that I don't feel there is need to add more to that stipulation.

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    I am not in agreement with the agreement of trying something different. The last time we did that is when the CdeC was removed. We spent years plugging the gaps of that decision and by the looks of it, we still are.

    The central premise f the proposal is that the Curia has been ripe with ToS violations, but there is no evidence that is the case. One could argue that the Curia had many disingenuous discussions, but enforcing the ToS is not going to enforce that. The untinted consequence of this proposal would put the Prefect has judge and jury of any staff referrals, which was precisely why we created the Censor positions in the first place. I do not feel we did anything different, but just going into circles.

    The other issue is opening up the Prothalomos. However, this ignores the underlining problem. We have active citizens who do not or no longer engage in any discussions, and in many cases, do not vote on any proposals. Many simply do not feel it is worth any time giving feedback or suggestions. Allowing non-citizens seems like the proverbial, avoiding the Christmas rush, by having "newer" member become frustrated sooner. In other words, it fails to address the cause, just the symptom.

    Then there is this...


    In the past, we had a forum for non-citizens. It was hardly ever used. We have the CCT, which is also hardly used. In fact, when I joined, it was more active. You know where those people are now? If you guessed, here in the Curia, then you are right.
    Again, what is the point of devaluing the very thing that makes this site unique and then gains nothing from it?

    If you want future input, then that is the question you need to start with to figure out the solution.
    That is not the central premise of this proposal. I perhaps have worded it in such a way to make it seem like a bigger deal than it actually is, but it really isn't. But as I have said many times in this thread already, the praefect position in this proposal is meant to be more than just moderating the curia.

    And I have also said I don't expect the opening of the Proth to open the floodgates in any way and change a whole lot here. I expect a fair few people to begin partaking in the Proth regularly then, and perhaps some others less consistently. This is more so about breaking down the barrier that has existed, at one point in a good way, but now I think in quite a negative way; that is, the barrier between members and citizens and the illusion now that the CCT or the old experiment of the FM was a way to be taken seriously by citizens and the goings on in this Prothalamos and the Curia at large. Many people will probably feel differently than I do on that, but I feel we're going to go a longer way in better discussion here by simply breaking down that barrier and opening the Proth to all for just discussion than we are in trying to get more citizens patronized to get them in here. You want the latter to work well, and I would love for it to as well, but it simply is not and is showing no signs of improving enough in a relatively good amount of time to be worth the wait.

    It seems to me you keep grossly misinterpreting the uniqueness of the Curia to the TW community and internet at large. The Curia is but one unique thing about this site, and it only matters to a select few. No one is going around off TWC and praising the idea of our Curia and citizenship and how unique and awesome it is. The best thing I have seen people talk about TWC for is mods. Never heard the Curia mentioned once.

    I believe I have beaten these subjects to hell and back now, so unless we're getting anywhere new with discussion on them I'm done commenting on them in the same fashion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belisarius View Post
    Item 4 is sacrilegious and would overturn a 15 year precedent. It would require a more pronounced decentralisation of power from executive to legislative to justify.

    I would oppose this.

    The rest I support.
    Oh no not sacrilegious!

    So we should just keep it because hey good old times sake right?

    You seem to have just come back at quite the strange time into the Curia Bel, but even as your time back in Hex and Content, how much of what was done here did you feel mattered to the site and staff? (legit asking, not being facetious with it)

    I've been a citizen for nearly 13 years now, and been in staff for probably a bit longer by now. The past 5 years at least, perhaps more, I haven't felt any strong connection to my staff work in any capacity from the curia, nor vice versa in any way.

    If everyone only continues to oppose opening the Proth on the basis of devaluing citizenship (whether just their own or the concept at large of citizenship) and yet continues to find no way to make the Curia relevant, useful and a worthwhile endeavor again then I see no reason at all as to why I, as a staffer and especially Hexer, should give a single about anything that goes on here beyond the occasional awards.



    @All, I will later update the proposal for a 1 year term for the Primus Praefect. Some other things are still being looked at. But I don't anticipate many more changes, especially big ones, anymore. Unless there are more questions or compelling arguments of course...I do not at this point intend to take out Item 4 from this proposal.

  20. #100
    Leonardo's Avatar Reborn Old Timer
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Southern Sweden
    Posts
    5,245

    Default Re: [Amendment(s)] Curial Overhaul Order 66

    Quote Originally Posted by Hader View Post
    Item 6 I wouldn't call too complicated in its current state, though perhaps my explanation for it makes it seem so. It has potential to become pretty complex though, but as it stands is a fairly simple thing and definitely won't amount to much unless expanded upon in the future. If you don't understand part of it let me know what parts and maybe I can explain it differently.

    A ratification after 6 months may be alright, though I just feel unnecessary. I will be adding the 1 year term for the primus praefect in for sure though, beyond that I don't feel there is need to add more to that stipulation.
    Could we at least let Item 6 be postponed for a year at the same time let the Praefect position be in place for a year with an election after 6 months. After a year Item 6 can be implemented and the Praefect position can be extended to a whole year instead of 6 months. Just to give the citizens time to get used to the changes in the Curia, not mention non-citizens will have enough time to show us that open up Prothalamos was a good idea or not.
    Under patronage of General Brewster of the Imperial House of Hader.





    How to make Morrowind less buggy for new players - Of course every player may find it useful.

Page 5 of 8 FirstFirst 12345678 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •