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Thread: Do you believe the Christmas story?

  1. #41
    Diocle's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Do you believe the Christmas story?

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    No you can pick another winter holiday. The Lenaia for example (considering how cavalier the Athenians were with adjusting there sacred calendar each year). I can happily celebrate the first new wine vintages and binge watch/read political satire and the best dramas I can find and respect a source of Western civilization that is in no way bible based. See don't think its a binary choice the new testament or hanging entrails in trees.
    Of course, you're right, but there are those two millenia on which we can't close our eyes, ears and mouth! More than Bible, I'm speaking of Europe, traditions and history, actually Christmas is all this and much more. I love wine but .. the 'Vino Novello' is a bit small and reductive as a reference.

    Do you understand that, when I think about Christmas, I see Karl Der Grosse "during the Christmas Mass of December 25th 800, in the Basilica of Saint Peter, crowned Roman Emperor", I can listen La Chanson de Roland "Carles li reis, nostre emperere magnes set anz tuz pleins ad estet en Espaigne: ..", and then the Otah of Strasbourg between his sons “Pro Deo amur et pro christian poblo et nostro commun saluament, d'ist di en auant, in quant Deus sauir et podir me dunat ..",, I see his granddad, Karl Martell on the battlefield of Tours "Firmly they stood, one close to another, forming as it were a bulwark of ice; .." stopping the infamous Saracens once for all?
    When I think about Christmas, I think about Saint Benedict of Nursia, scion of the ancient Roman family of the Anicii, and I see first House of the Benedectine Order, the Abbey of Montecassino built during the VI century, close to the ancient Roman city of Casinum; I see thousands curches, towns, villages, castles, endless wars, endless ruins, endless artworks, texts, musical pages of sublime beauty, and I see endless men and women building our Western History, day by day, with pain and sacrifice, in the name of Jesus Christ, their history is also my history as man and citizen, and at the same time it's a collective history of the West which is also, not only, but mainly, a Christian History.

    Now that we have won and the whole world has taken the shape our politicians, merchants, bankers, soldiers have decided, should we forget Constantine's Dream and the true meaning of his choice, removing Jesus Christ and the Holy Cross, from Christmasday? No, I won't ever do this! Not me, Domine!


  2. #42
    basics's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Do you believe the Christmas story?

    Happy Christmas everyone! No arguing, no fighting, just enjoy the day.

  3. #43
    MaximiIian's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Do you believe the Christmas story?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Of course, you're right, but there are those two millenia on which we can't close our eyes, ears and mouth! More than Bible, I'm speaking of Europe, traditions and history, actually Christmas is all this and much more...
    Ignoring the white nationalism inherent to such Eurocentrism...you realize that not everyone of European heritage is Christian, or wants to celebrate Christian things, right? Even if one is celebrating European history and heritage, some view Christianity as a problematic imposition, one that destroyed or warped the indigenous cultures of pre-Christian Europe.

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    Default Re: Do you believe the Christmas story?

    Maximilian,

    Of course it is a problematic imposition, one that goes all the way back to the fall of Adam, because no-one wants to be held responsible for their own situation before God. That's what makes Christmas ever so special in that God came to dwell amongst us so that in time He could take away the problem that man has with God. Jesus solved that at the cross to cover all time as we know it. There has never been, nor can there ever be anyone calling themselves god to compare with Him. It's never been a question of numbers rather a question of personally knowing Him and the promises He brings with that.

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    Default Re: Do you believe the Christmas story?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaximiIian View Post
    Ignoring the white nationalism inherent to such Eurocentrism...you realize that not everyone of European heritage is Christian, or wants to celebrate Christian things, right? Even if one is celebrating European history and heritage, some view Christianity as a problematic imposition, one that destroyed or warped the indigenous cultures of pre-Christian Europe.
    Eurocentrism maybe, but White nationalism what? White Nationalism is just in your mind, not in my post for sure.

    The ancient non-Christian European religions historically died one or two centuries before the fall of the Pars Occidentis, the new Germanic invaders in the fifth and sixth centuries were all Christians of Arian rite. Atheism was not existent in Europe during the Middle Age with perhaps the exclusion of some extremist heretical sects like the Anabaptists (also them part of Christian history); all the Universities, starting from the first Alma Mater of Bononia, were Christian Universities, all the cultural production at least up to XVIII century was a Christian production; the whole European philosopy, was Christian philosophy for great part of its history. Even the elaboration of anti-Christian doctrines took place in Christian environment; all the new reformed Churches were mainly Christian sects, founded by heretic Domenican friars, like Luther and Calvin. There was not even one European State that was not a Christian State, even the colonies in America, Africa and Asia, were strictly Christian colonies, ruled by Christian elites and defended by Christian soldiers. So I don't see how would it be possible saying that in European History there was something non-Christian or Anti-Christian.

    If this is the White Suprematism, or White Nationalism you was referring to, well, let me say loud and clear that rarely I've read something more stupid, wrong and misplaced.

  6. #46
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    Default Re: Do you believe the Christmas story?

    The ancient non-Christian European religions historically died one or two centuries before the fall of the Pars Occidentis
    Suppressed you mean?

    the new Germanic invaders in the fifth and sixth centuries were all Christians of Arian rite
    You are ignoring Angles, Saxons, Danes etc. Huns?

    Alma Mater of Bononia, were Christian Universities
    Sorta following the suppression of alternatives

    all the cultural production at least up to XVIII century was a Christian production
    Was there choice? How does that work ? Is Shakespeare a christian cultural production. It was produced by Christians I suppose but the form was pagan Greek in origin and clearly refined in Athens so I'm confused.

    the whole European philosopy, was Christian philosophy for great part of its history.
    Kinda easy to be so when the Emperor and then the Pope suppress any alternative.

    Even the elaboration of anti-Christian doctrines took place in Christian environment
    Of course that is just a mirror image of the elaboration of early christian doctrine and why is swallowed so much neo-platonic thought.

    even the colonies in America, Africa and Asia, were strictly Christian colonies, ruled by Christian elites and defended by Christian soldiers.
    Well the locals were not given a vote...

    So I don't see how would it be possible saying that in European History there was something non-Christian or Anti-Christian.
    That would require you to start the clock on European at say sometime around the 12th century and of course be using a different calendar, alphabet, loose a lot of you language, days of the week, etc.
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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  7. #47
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    Default Re: Do you believe the Christmas story?

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Suppressed you mean?
    Suppressed, erased, exterminated, annihilated, absorbed, deleted, killed, Puff! ..vaporized! Use the verb you prefer, I could not care less.

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394
    You are ignoring Angles, Saxons, Danes etc. Huns?
    Angles, Saxons, Danes, etc.. all good Christians! Just a few years after they placed their dirty ass on Romano-British lands they all became fervent Christians, we know their history because Christian monks have decided it was worth writing it down. Huns? Can you describe Huns' religion? I can't! We just know it was some sort of shamanic religion about which we know nothing because they were not used to write down their belief, so it's hard for us even trying to reconstuct it.

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394
    Sorta following the suppression of alternatives
    You talk of alternatives, can you quote one of them in Europe during the tenth century? Cathars maybe? But Cathars were just Christian Manichaean.

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394
    Was there choice? How does that work ?
    There was no choice and then? What does it mean? The possiblity of choice was given us from the Christian religious world once the Reform took place and once Christian intellectuals paid at the cost of their own life the successful struggle for religious freedom. We may say that in Europe even trying to fight the Christianism was actually a Christian battle.

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394
    Is Shakespeare a christian cultural production. It was produced by Christians I suppose but the form was pagan Greek in origin and clearly refined in Athens so I'm confused.
    OMG! Why are you confused? Did the Tragedies of Shakespeare refer to an ancient Greek theatrical form? Yes, of course, and then? Everything from the Greek-Roman world came to us from Byzantine and Catholic works of transcription of ancient sources (papyrus or scrolls), but this just proves that what I'm saying is true.

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394
    Kinda easy to be so when the Emperor and then the Pope suppress any alternative.
    Easy? What do you mean? I don't think that for the Dominican monk Luther, it was that easy criticizing the Church of Rome, as I don't think that for Giordano Bruno it was an easy task being burnt alive to defend his moral freedom, even if he was a Dominican monk! Nor it was easy for Galileo, teaching Phisics at Padua, defending his scientific views against the Church! It was not easy fighting for freedom, but those who fought that battle for us, were all Christians.

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394
    Of course that is just a mirror image of the elaboration of early christian doctrine and why is swallowed so much neo-platonic thought.
    Can you quote even one single case of non Chrstian doctrine in Medieval Europe (Apart the Jewish world, which was anyway related to the same book, the Holy Bible I mean)?

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394
    Well the locals were not given a vote...
    Yes, and then?

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394
    That would require you to start the clock on European at say sometime around the 12th century and of course be using a different calendar, alphabet, loose a lot of you language, days of the week, etc.
    Do you think that in 12th century, in Europe there was some viable alternative to Christianism? Which one, please?

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    Default Re: Do you believe the Christmas story?

    Happy New Year guys!

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    Default Re: Do you believe the Christmas story?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Happy New Year guys!
    Happy New Year basics and you all guys!

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    Default Re: Do you believe the Christmas story?

    Are you happy because you're one year closer to death and meetup with Jesus?

    #CookieJustice #IGod

  11. #51

    Default Re: Do you believe the Christmas story?

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Suppressed you mean?
    Suppressed by whom? When many of the peoples of Europe coverted, the Roman Empire was long gone, and outside of Italy, the popes only had power after the people converted in the first place, and relied on local princes and rulers for any physical force. The Church nor the pope had any armies outside of Italy for most of Europe, except for the odd military monastic order, which were had the odd chapter house here and there except for Eastern Europe, and the militant orders only indirectly reported to the Church.


    You are ignoring Angles, Saxons, Danes etc. Huns?
    The Huns we're not a Germanic invaders. I suggest you study more history.

    And pagan German tribes like Angles voluntarily coverted to Christianity it was not forcibly imposed on them.


    Sorta following the suppression of alternatives
    The Lithuanian didn't convert until the 13th century, and acked any university or any scholar. The lack of scholar in pagan Europe was not becausw they were being supressed as you claim. The Anglo-Saxons produced no scholars while they were pagans, and it was not because all the pagan scholars were all being supressed as you assert. Yet a hundred years after they converted the Anglo-Saxons produced one the leading scholars in Europe, Bede. The former pagans took the lead in the re,-establishment of learning in Europe with scholars like Alcuin.


    Was there choice? How does that work ? Is Shakespeare a christian cultural production. It was produced by Christians I suppose but the form was pagan Greek in origin and clearly refined in Athens so I'm confused.
    Yes you are confused, since you think scholars like Bede and Alcuin were pagans, and the pagan Anglo Saxons were full of scholars and philosophers when they were pagan.

    English theater evovled out of Christian mystery play traditions as much as it did out of Greek ones.


    Kinda easy to be so when the Emperor and then the Pope suppress any alternative.
    There were no Emperors supressing learning in pagan Lithuania, Poland, or the the pagan Anglo Saxon's or Norse, yet they did not produce any great scholars of note. You assertion that the long gone Roman Emperors were suppressing learning among the pagans peoples of Europe well beyond the borders of the Roman Parts Empire at its height is not supported by the facts. Nor were the popes suppressing learning on the pre Christian Irish as you also claim, yet the pre Christian Irish contributed nothing to the rest of Europe's intellectual life.


    Of course that is just a mirror image of the elaboration of early christian doctrine and why is swallowed so much neo-platonic thought.
    The pagan Greeks never came up with the modern university system, where students and teachers freely traveled between institutions of learning.


    Well the locals were not given a vote...
    The local were not given the vote under the Roman empire either.


    That would require you to start the clock on European at say sometime around the 12th century and of course be using a different calendar, alphabet, loose a lot of you language, days of the week, etc.
    Where did you learn o should I say not learn history? Europe was using the Julian calendar before the 12 the century and the Gregorian calenda wasn't invented until later. Except for some additional letters, the alphabet is the sam one that was used before the 12th century in Europe, and the script we use today was largely devised by Alcuin in the 9th century so I don't know where you claims come from, not from history books or at least good ones.

  12. #52
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    Default Do you believe the Christmas story?

    Suppressed by whom? When many of the peoples of Europe coverted, the Roman Empire was long gone, and outside of Italy, the popes only had power after the people converted in the first place, and relied on local princes and rulers for any physical force. The Church nor the pope had any armies outside of Italy for most of Europe, except for the odd military monastic order, which were had the odd chapter house here and there except for Eastern Europe, and the militant orders only indirectly reported to the Church.
    And the Cathars just gave up? Northern Crusades?

    The Huns we're not a Germanic invaders. I suggest you study more history.

    And pagan German tribes like Angles voluntarily converted to Christianity it was not forcibly imposed on them.
    Yes I know Huns are not Germans... As to the voluntary part kinda moot after your king decides.

    The Lithuanian didn't convert until the 13th century, and acked any university or any scholar. The lack of scholar in pagan Europe was not becausw they were being supressed as you claim. The Anglo-Saxons produced no scholars while they were pagans, and it was not because all the pagan scholars were all being supressed as you assert. Yet a hundred years after they converted the Anglo-Saxons produced one the leading scholars in Europe, Bede. The former pagans took the lead in the re,-establishment of learning in Europe with scholars like Alcuin.
    re establishment - from what exactly - hmm, not christian scholars...

    English theater evovled out of Christian mystery play traditions as much as it did out of Greek ones.

    Wow surprise a drama that developed in the 5th century by Christians living in a world soaked with drama... What a novel concept it must be based on the OT somewhere?

    The local were not given the vote under the Roman empire either.
    They were more or less until Christianity got the upper hand

    Where did you learn o should I say not learn history? Europe was using the Julian calendar before the 12 the century and the Gregorian calenda wasn't invented until later. Except for some additional letters, the alphabet is the sam one that was used before the 12th century in Europe, and the script we use today was largely devised by Alcuin in the 9th century so I don't know where you claims come from, not from history books or at least good ones.
    Julian calendar not christian - Gregorian only a modest corrective.
    Basic Alphabet Greek and than Latin not Christian
    Months and days not Christian
    Old Roman cursive escapes you?
    My point was criticizing Diocle's attempt to make western civilization synonymous with Christianity.
    Last edited by conon394; January 01, 2019 at 01:05 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  13. #53
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    Default Re: Do you believe the Christmas story?

    Quote Originally Posted by AqD View Post
    Are you happy because you're one year closer to death and meetup with Jesus?
    AqD,

    Yes, I am happy that one day I will be with Him yet sad that yesterday I heard that my older brother has terminal cancer and to my knowledge him and all his family are no more than nominal Christians. Combine that with me going in for another bladder scan to make sure my cancer has still gone is I guess just another day in the life of basics. So, when I wish everyone a happy new year I mean happy in every sense.

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    All this Christian vs pagan talk is fun, but it misses the point. A Greek who becomes a Christian doesn't magically stop being a Greek, he's simply liberated from the clutches of whatever false religion he adhered to. Christian missionaries and scholars typically have a high regard for non-Christian peoples, sans all the immorality. Remember that Christianity came not to replace or defeat the world's peoples, but to redeem them.

    "If you are willing to spare any pagans from your punishment, my Christ,
    May you choose Plato and Plutarch for my sake.
    For both clung closely in word and in deed to your laws.
    If they did not know that you are Lord of all,
    Through which you are willing to save all men for nothing in return." - John Mauropous, 11th-century scholar and bishop of Euchaita
    Saint Peter Claver, S.J. was a Spanish Jesuit priest and missionary born in Verdú (Catalonia, Spain) who, due to his life and work, became the patron saint of slaves, the Republic of Colombia, and ministry to African Americans. During the 40 years of his ministry in the New Kingdom of Granada, it is estimated he personally baptized around 300,000 people (in groups of 10) and heard the confessions of over 5,000 slaves per year. He is also patron saint for seafarers. He is considered a heroic example of what should be the Christian praxis of love and of the exercise of human rights.[2]

    Claver volunteered for the Spanish colonies and was sent to the New Kingdom of Granada, where he arrived in the port city of Cartagena in 1610.[5] Required to spend six years studying theology before being ordained a priest, he lived in Jesuit houses at Tunja and Bogotá. During those preparatory years, he was deeply disturbed by the harsh treatment and living conditions of the black slaves who were brought from Africa.

    Cartagena was a slave-trading hub and 10,000 slaves poured into the port yearly, crossing the Atlantic from West Africa under conditions so foul that an estimated one-third died in transit. Although the slave trade was condemned by Pope Paul III and Urban VIII had issued a papal decree prohibiting slavery,[6] (later called "supreme villainy" by Pope Pius IX), it was a lucrative business and continued to flourish.[5]

    Claver's predecessor in his eventual lifelong mission, Father Alonso de Sandoval, S.J., was his mentor and inspiration.[5] Sandoval devoted himself to serving the slaves for 40 years before Claver arrived to continue his work. Sandoval attempted to learn about their customs and languages; he was so successful that, when he returned to Seville, he wrote a book in 1627 about the nature, customs, rites and beliefs of the Africans. Sandoval found Claver an apt pupil. When he was solemnly professed in 1622, Claver signed his final profession document in Latin as: Petrus Claver, aethiopum semper servus (Peter Claver, servant of the Ethiopians [i.e. Africans] forever).


    The Triumph Of Christianity Over Paganism:

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  15. #55

    Default Re: Do you believe the Christmas story?

    Ie: the beliefs are still there.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
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  16. #56

    Default Re: Do you believe the Christmas story?

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    And the Cathars just gave up? Northern Crusades?
    Cathars we're not pagans. Northern Crusades were political expansion under the guise of religion, not unusua.ans covered only a small.part of Europe. The fact remains most of Europe was not converted by force as you seem to think.


    Yes I know Huns are not Germans... As to the voluntary part kinda moot after your king decides.
    Early German king's did not have much power, they were like warleaders, and most could not force people to adopt views and religions they opposed. When the Old English of Northrumbi converted, the king called in his conselors to asked their view, and it was on their advice the king adopted Christianity. These German king's we're not like Oriental despots.


    re establishment - from what exactly - hmm, not christian scholars...
    And expanded the boundaries far beyond what the pagans every achieved, both physically and.mentally.

    Wow surprise a drama that developed in the 5th century by Christians living in a world soaked with drama... What a novel concept it must be based on the OT somewhere?
    The Christian Mystery plays arose later than the 5th century, High Middle Ages. And why should the Mystery Plays be derived from the OT, since Christians also had the NT? And why can't the originals ns of the plays be based on earlier pagan European traditions not founded on classical Europe? The Christians freely and admittedly borrowed from non Christian sources, what is wrong with that?


    They were more or less until Christianity got the upper hand
    The ancient pagan Roman Empire was not a democracy nor did they hold elections as you claim. You are mistaken that the Roman Empire held local.elections.


    Julian calendar not christian - Gregorian only a modest corrective.
    Basic Alphabet Greek and than Latin not Christian
    Months and days not Christian
    The fact there are 7 days in the week is from Jewish influence. The original Roman calendar had kalends, nones, and idea. Although the Romans had adopted the 7 day week long before the rise of Christianity. I was mistaken on that.

    And Julian calendar was just a correction to an older calendar not invented by Julius Caesar either. The Gregorian calendar is far more accurate and not nearly as far out of sync with the he actual seasons as the Julius calendar. But it was Christians who spread the use of the Julius calendar far beyond the borders of the Roman empire, and their Gregorian calendar throughout the world. Ancient Roman influence throughout the world today was directly due to Christianity.
    Without Christianity, the Romans would have been no more influential today worldwide than yesterday ancient Assyrians.



    Old Roman cursive escapes you?
    My point was criticizing Diocle's attempt to make western civilization synonymous with Christianity.
    Most of Europe was outside the influence of Roman civilization before converting to Christianity. While a major part of western civilization is derived from the ancient Roman and Greeks, an equally important part comes from Christianity, and had it not been for Christian Christianity, the Greoc-Roman influence would have been restricted to a small fraction of Europe, and would not have had the worldwide influence it does. It was the conversion to Christianity that brought Greek and Roman civilizations to to the unconquered Gremans, Celts, and Slavs. Western Civilization has several sources, not just the Greeks and Romans. We may admire the storiea of Athena and the ancient Greek and Roman gods, but we do not worship them.

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    Default Re: Do you believe the Christmas story?

    Isn't it no surprise that despite any debating about who and what came first second or last the power of Almighty God through His Spirit has broken down and still breaks down any barriers to the Gospel of His son Jesus Christ. People are still being drawn to Him even at a time of immense educational qualities and discoveries and nothing or no-one can stop it. Oh plenty have tried and failed as Russia and China are now finding out not withstanding the underground churches in places like Iran and others.

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    Default Re: Do you believe the Christmas story?

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    The ancient pagan Roman Empire was not a democracy nor did they hold elections as you claim. You are mistaken that the Roman Empire held local elections.
    "Local" inasmuch as they were entirely municipal, yes they were local. Only the inhabitants of the city of Rome really did the voting for the various magistrates and priests, via the assemblies. And aside from the empire-wide offices, there were actual municipal offices that were elected by wards.
    Some cities under Roman control were largely allowed to carry on local traditions of governance-- Athens, for instance, saw democracy restored after a century and a half of Macedonian occupation, when it declared for Rome.

    We may admire the stories of Athena and the ancient Greek and Roman gods, but we do not worship them.
    Speak for yourself. I do worship them, and many others do as well. You'd have to be culturally blind to not know that Modern Paganism is a pretty widespread and rapidly-growing movement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MaximiIian View Post
    Speak for yourself. I do worship them, and many others do as well. You'd have to be culturally blind to not know that Modern Paganism is a pretty widespread and rapidly-growing movement.
    Isn't it just a subculture, though? I mean, do neopagans legitimately believe in these deities? How did they discover their existence? What reason do they have for worshiping them?
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    Default Re: Do you believe the Christmas story?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Legend View Post
    Isn't it just a subculture, though?
    Everything's a subculture. I don't know what this question is meant to imply. Something about the community's size? There are about as many Modern Pagans in the US as there are Jews, and it has been consistently one of the most rapidly-growing religions in the country since the 1990s. And it has considerable presence in the UK, Canada, Australia, and parts of Continental Europe.
    I would characterize Modern Paganism as being more cohesive as a social/cultural movement, than cohesive as a religious grouping, though. Mainly due to the sheer diversity of practices, beliefs, and traditions within the Pagan umbrella.

    I mean, do neopagans legitimately believe in these deities?
    A lot of them do, yes. Some don't, but some form of polytheism has always been the majority opinion.

    How did they discover their existence? What reason do they have for worshiping them?
    Both of these questions have the same answer: it varies, person-to-person, and tradition-to-tradition.

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