Page 1 of 6 123456 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 106

Thread: Do you believe the Christmas story?

  1. #1
    basics's Avatar Praeses
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Scotland, UK.
    Posts
    9,313

    Default Do you believe the Christmas story?

    Once again Christmas approaches bringing with it a certain excitement that anyone can sense or experience. So, what does it do for you?

  2. #2
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Colfax WA, neat I have a barn and 49 acres - I have 2 horses, 15 chickens - but no more pigs
    Posts
    13,354

    Default Re: Do you believe the Christmas story?

    I do enjoy looking forward to the traditional European solstice based holiday, who would not. Time off to cook staggering complex meals that the workday does not allow or see friends and family, no nagging my kids about homework, time to put all those indoor projects avoided into action, set up a puzzle or complex board game. But to the title question as you might guess I'm going to take a pass on the literal reality of the Christmas story and of course the date is just an opportunist guess. But I got no problem with everyone enjoying the holiday to the maxim however they do it.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  3. #3
    Himster's Avatar Praeses
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Dublin, The Peoples Republic of Ireland
    Posts
    9,770

    Default Re: Do you believe the Christmas story?

    I believe in materialism, so I believe in the true meaning of Christmas: He who dies with the most toys wins.
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are so certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubts.
    -Betrand Russell

  4. #4
    Praefectus
    Citizen

    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    6,467

    Default Re: Do you believe the Christmas story?

    My missus and I are introducing our 4 year old to the story. We have a toy Jesus and Joseph on the mantle, with some cloths for desert and rivers and pastures, and each day they inch closer to Bethlehem from Nazareth. After the toys are inched a bit further to the right each day he gets to open a door on the advent calendar (always wanting to open more! restrain yourself, Cyclops jnr!). he will have a chance to become a person of faith, and I will show him other faiths too.

    The kids at his creche are being told about Santa, a lot of materialist nonsense. Its nice to share gifts but we go too far. He's ggetting in to that rubbish too "when will Santa be here?" he asks with an eye to getting gifts.

    I don't believe the "birth of Christ" narratives as given in the Gospels to be plain fact. I think they contradict one another and known historical facts.

    I don't think this means the early Christians and the evangelists were liars, I think they loved Jesus as their teacher and saw God in him, and included that in their various birth stories. The early church was scattered, and even form the start some believers were killed (by Pharisees like Saul-he was there when the protomartyr was stoned) or died in the terrible wars and persections so some stories may have only been partly remembered and the blanks filled in as best they could.

    Socially yes its a time for complicated meals and family.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  5. #5
    AqD's Avatar (>▂<)
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Home
    Posts
    10,152

    Default Re: Do you believe the Christmas story?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Once again Christmas approaches bringing with it a certain excitement that anyone can sense or experience. So, what does it do for you?
    Just a shopping day with beautiful lights everywhere. A empty shell some would call, but a happy one.

    Why do you even care? I still find it ridiculous that people tolerate having their life and values defined by other people or some old books.

    #CookieJustice #IGod

  6. #6
    basics's Avatar Praeses
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Scotland, UK.
    Posts
    9,313

    Default Re: Do you believe the Christmas story?

    Quote Originally Posted by AqD View Post
    Just a shopping day with beautiful lights everywhere. A empty shell some would call, but a happy one.

    Why do you even care? I still find it ridiculous that people tolerate having their life and values defined by other people or some old books.
    AqD,

    I care because we celebrate the birth of my Saviour and Lord at this time which anyone can enjoy. It seems to bring out the best in folks and that can only be a good thing.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Do you believe the Christmas story?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    AqD,

    I care because we celebrate the birth of my Saviour and Lord at this time which anyone can enjoy. It seems to bring out the best in folks and that can only be a good thing.
    Your saviour, not mine.

    Your god got nailed to a cross by the romans at the behest of his own people so that anyone, no matter how evil could go to heaven as long as they said sorry. Rape and murder a 6 year old? Sure, repent, say sorry and go to heaven.

    I'll stick with Odin thanks.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Do you believe the Christmas story?

    Quote Originally Posted by 95thrifleman View Post
    Your saviour, not mine.

    Your god got nailed to a cross by the romans at the behest of his own people so that anyone, no matter how evil could go to heaven as long as they said sorry. Rape and murder a 6 year old? Sure, repent, say sorry and go to heaven.

    I'll stick with Odin thanks.
    Not sure of the 6 year old and rape reference came from. Maybe confused with Muhammad. Scholars are not saying Mary was 6, that would be contrary to Jewish practice.


    And in England, it is Wodin, not Odin. Odin has his rape stories, such as the rape of Rinda.

    As to the story, I kind of like Death's defense of the belief in the tooth fairies and Hogwatch (Disc World's version of Christmas) in the "Hogfather". You have to believe in the little lies as practice for believing in the big lies like Justice, Mercy, Duty. When a character objects that things like Justice, Duty are not the same thing as believing in fairies and Hogwatch/Christmas, Death answers that if you were to ground up the entire universe you would not find an atom.of Justice or Mercy. Yet we believe in such things.
    Last edited by Common Soldier; December 09, 2018 at 11:43 PM.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Do you believe the Christmas story?

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    Not sure of the 6 year old and rape reference came from. Maybe confused with Muhammad. Scholars are not saying Mary was 6, that would be contrary to Jewish practice.


    Ans in England, it is Wodin, not Odin. Odialso has his rape stroies,.such as the rape of Rinda.

    As to the story, I kind of like.Death's defense of the belief in the tooth fairies and Hogwatch (Disc World's version of Christmas) in the "Hogfather". You have to believe in the little lies as practice for believing in the big lies like Justice, Mercy, Duty. When a character objects that things like Justice, Duty are not the same thing as believing in fairies and Hogwatch/Christmas, Death answers that if you were to ground up the entire universe you would not find an atom.of Justice or Mercy. Yet we believe in such things.
    It is Christian belief that all sin can be forgiven. In Christian belief, regardless of sect or denomination a man can rape and murder a 6 year old girl and still go to heaven if he repents and asks for god's forgiveness.

    You lot are obsessed with mohammed

  10. #10
    Protector Domesticus
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Posts
    4,696

    Default Re: Do you believe the Christmas story?

    Imagine thinking that repentance and forgiveness are bad things. The absolute state of nonbelievers...

    Believe me, you of all people wouldn't like a world with no repentance or forgiveness. Worry about yourself, buddy.

    Ignore List (to save time):

    Exarch

  11. #11

    Default Re: Do you believe the Christmas story?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Legend View Post
    Imagine thinking that repentance and forgiveness are bad things. The absolute state of nonbelievers...

    Believe me, you of all people wouldn't like a world with no repentance or forgiveness. Worry about yourself, buddy.

    You have your beliefs, I have mine.

    Difference being the rest of the world religions are not running around trying to tell everyone they are wrong, often violently, like christianity and islam.

  12. #12
    basics's Avatar Praeses
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Scotland, UK.
    Posts
    9,313

    Default Re: Do you believe the Christmas story?

    Quote Originally Posted by 95thrifleman View Post
    It is Christian belief that all sin can be forgiven. In Christian belief, regardless of sect or denomination a man can rape and murder a 6 year old girl and still go to heaven if he repents and asks for god's forgiveness.

    You lot are obsessed with mohammed
    95thrifleman,

    Nope, you've got things a little askew here. A person who kills or rapes can be forgiven providing they were in a state of unbelief but that will not be allowed for anyone who is born again, they will definitely be going into hell. The one sin that cannot be forgiven then is when the Holy Spirit reveals Jesus to anyone and they reject their calling. There is no league table of sin as one sin is as bad as another and so as all mankind was plunged into sin by Adam and sin can only be paid for in blood, it follows that the only blood capable of removing sin was the blood of Jesus Christ and delivered whilst the sinner was still alive. That is why anyone must be born again of the Spirit of God to be saved from their sin and able to enter God's Kingdom in due course. That's the great news that Christmas brings to all mankind.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Do you believe the Christmas story?

    I believe in the Winter Solstice.

    Christianity hijacked it for there own purposes.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
    -Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  14. #14
    Diocle's Avatar Comes Limitis
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Amon Amarth
    Posts
    12,589

    Default Re: Do you believe the Christmas story?

    I like Christmas because I like thinking and celebrating more than 2000 years of Western tradition, values, history and culture. A masterpiece built by generations of men of good will in the shadow of the cross.

    I don't like very much the son of Constantius Chlorus, indeed I hate him, and I would have been with Maxentius on the Milvian Bridge on 28 October 312, possibly one of the few exactly knowing for what we were fighting and about to die, but .. dammit, after two thousand years, I've to admit that Constantine the bastard did the right thing chosing the cross, the words "In hoc signo vices" were in fact absolutely true: we, the West, have won.

  15. #15
    basics's Avatar Praeses
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Scotland, UK.
    Posts
    9,313

    Default Re: Do you believe the Christmas story?

    It's funny but I still get a kick out of Christmas simply because it is based on a truth that Jesus was born if not on that specific day was born at all. Why even the Santa story is based on true facts that a rich man did give gifts to children just as the Wise men did for Jesus. So we've dressed that part up a little over the years only adds to the joy that kids build up as the great day approaches. I am still amazed when I ask the smallest toddlers who is coming soon and although none mention Jesus they all can say Santa. To me that is not a bad thing because as they grow they'll no doubt find out about the connection between St. Nicholas and Jesus. And, what makes it all the more uplifting is to hear the timeless carols and songs that stir memories of my own childhood.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Do you believe the Christmas story?

    In Sweden even the christians call it "Jul" and not "christmas" but as I myself quite recently have become more of a cultural pagan, one that is trying to find out how the original Jul was celebrated, I must say I like it more and more for every year I discover something new and wonderful about it.

    Sent from my MI MAX 2 using Tapatalk

  17. #17

    Default Re: Do you believe the Christmas story?

    As an Atheist, Christmas means less than nothing to me. It means as much to me as Eid or Diwali. It is now only a commercial festival to exploit simpletons into buying crap they don't need for people they don't like.

    I'm utterly sick of it already, so I'm really grateful I'm missing the whole thing this year by going on holiday to a non-Christian country.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Do you believe the Christmas story?

    Birth of Jesus is a mystical event, so there's nothing wrong with associating it to the Solstice.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

  19. #19

    Default Re: Do you believe the Christmas story?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeft View Post
    As an Atheist, Christmas means less than nothing to me. It means as much to me as Eid or Diwali.
    I guess I'm having trouble grasping this. Can you walk us through the math?
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  20. #20
    Protector Domesticus
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Posts
    4,696

    Default Re: Do you believe the Christmas story?

    Daily reminder that Santa is real.

    Family and background

    Accounts of Saint Nicholas's life agree on the essence of his story,[22] but modern historians disagree regarding how much of this story is actually rooted in historical fact.[22] Traditionally, Nicholas was born in the city of Patara (Lycia et Pamphylia), a port on the Mediterranean Sea,[23] in Asia Minor in the Roman Empire, to a wealthy family of Greek Christians.[22][24][25][26][27][23] According to some accounts, his parents were named Epiphanius (Ἐπιφάνιος, Epiphánios) and Johanna (Ἰωάννα, Iōánna),[28] but, according to others, they were named Theophanes (Θεοφάνης, Theophánēs) and Nonna (Νόννα, Nónna).[23] In some accounts, Nicholas's uncle was the bishop of the city of Myra, also in Lycia.[29] Recognizing his nephew's calling, Nicholas's uncle ordained him as a priest.[29]

    Generosity and travels

    After his parents died, Nicholas is said to have distributed their wealth to the poor.[21][29] In his most famous exploit,[30] which is first attested in Michael the Archimandrite's Life of Saint Nicholas, Nicholas heard of a devout man who once had been wealthy, but had lost all his money due to the "plotting and envy of Satan."[21][31] The man had three daughters, but could not afford a proper dowry for them.[31][21][29][d] This meant that they would remain unmarried and probably, in absence of any other possible employment, be forced to become prostitutes.[21][29][31] Hearing of the girls' plight, Nicholas decided to help them, but, being too modest to help the family in public (or to save them the humiliation of accepting charity), he went to the house under the cover of night and threw a purse filled with gold coins through the window opening into the house.[21][29] He did the same thing the next two nights,[21][29][33] giving the man a total of three bags of gold, one for each of his three daughters.[21][29][33]

    According to Michael the Archimandrite's version, on the third night, the father of the three girls stayed up and caught Saint Nicholas in the act of the charity.[21][29][34] The father fell on his knees, thanking him.[21][29][34] Nicholas ordered him not to tell anyone about the gift.[21][29][34] The scene of Nicholas's secret gift-giving is one of the most popular scenes in Christian devotional art, appearing in icons and frescoes from across Europe.[35] Although depictions vary depending on time and place,[35] Nicholas is often shown wearing a cowl while the daughters are typically shown in bed, dressed in their nightclothes.[35] Many renderings contain a cypress tree or a cross-shaped cupola.[35]

    The historicity of this incident is disputed.[21] Adam C. English argues for a historical kernel to the legend, noting the story's early attestation as well as the fact that no similar stories were told about any other Christian saints.[36] Jona Lendering, who also argues for the story's authenticity, notes that a similar story is told in Philostratus's Life of Apollonius of Tyana, in which Apollonius gives money to an impoverished father,[21] but states that Michael the Archimandrite's account is markedly different.[21] Philostratus never mentions the fate of the daughters and, in his story, Apollonius's generosity is purely motivated out of sympathy for the father;[21] in Michael the Archimandrite's account, however, Saint Nicholas is instead expressly stated to be motivated by a desire to save the daughters from being sold into prostitution.[21] He argues that this desire to help women is most characteristic of fourth-century Christianity, due to the prominent role women played in the early Christian movement,[21] rather than Greco-Roman paganism or the Christianity of Michael the Archimandrite's time in the ninth century, by which point the position of women had drastically declined.[21]
    Quote Originally Posted by basics
    And, what makes it all the more uplifting is to hear the timeless carols and songs that stir memories of my own childhood.
    These are the best ones.



    Last edited by Prodromos; December 11, 2018 at 07:16 AM.
    Ignore List (to save time):

    Exarch

Page 1 of 6 123456 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •