Do you believe the Christmas story?

[basics]

I remember one of the short conversations I had with my brother and him saying to let him and his family worship in their own way wondering who it was they did worship? Being brothers the conversation was not going very far but what saddened me most was that he never knew Jesus is God. When I mentioned that he quickly retorted what is written above. As he is now going into deep dementia as well as having terminal cancer what to do next is anyone's guess on how to get through to him as we have never been that close and as I went through another test the findings were that my cancer is back meaning another operation soon. So, I guess the best I can do is to write in detail the urgency of him and his family to get Jesus Christ to be their Lord and Saviour before it is too late for him at least.

[conon394]

Being brothers the conversation was not going very far but what saddened me most was that he never knew Jesus is God...So, I guess the best I can do is to write in detail the urgency of him and his family to get Jesus Christ to be their Lord and Saviour before it is too late for him at least.

I sorry for you that you have put yourself in a narrow place. Unlike CS Lewis you have opted for a narrow path. Perhaps correct, but it does leave you with a very narrow and vengeful god.

[Diocle]

Speak for yourself. I do worship them, and many others do as well. You'd have to be culturally blind to not know that Modern Paganism is a pretty widespread and rapidly-growing movement.

You can't believe in a religion you don't know, this is the point.

Greek-Roman (but also Germanic and Gallic) Paganism did not survive history, I mean that we don't know which were the religious and intellectual basis, the deep and complex roots and values of those ancient religions.
We don't know what actually happened during the Eleusinian Mysteries, we don't know what happened in Mithraeums, we don't know 'the mysteries of Isis and Osiris in Egypt, the Adoniac of Syrian cults, the Persian mysteries, and the Phrygian Cabeirian mysteries', we can't reconstuct the actual essence of ancient Paganism. Today, we can just stage an obscene parody, of absolute bad taste in perfect Hollywood style, trying to reconstruct a distorted (because for the large part, invented) image of rites and cerimonies, which once were real spiritual experiences for ancient Pagans, but today are just an obscene comedy badly acted by hippy groups.

We have to accept that history NEVER comes back on its steps, we have to accept that Pagaism died once for all at Samarra on 26 June 363 AD, and there is NOTHING we can do change this FACT, absolutely nothing, nothing at all.



" The one absolutely, the Intelligible, the ever Preexisting, comprehending all the universe together within the One
— nay, more, is not the whole world One living thing — all and everywhere full of life and soul, perfect and made up out of parts likewise perfect?
Now of this double unity the most perfect part (I mean of the Unity in the Intelligible World that comprehends all things in One,
and of the Unity encompassing the Sensible World, that brings together all things into a single and perfect nature)
is the perfection of the sovereign Sun, which is central and single, and placed in the middle of the intermediate Powers. "

'Oration upon the Sovereign Sun', by Flavius Claudius Iulianus Augustus,
calling for celebration of ceremonies of the Birth of Sol Invictus on 25 December (c. December 362).

[Aexodus]

Paganism actually survived in Lithuania well into the middle ages.

[Diocle]

Paganism actually survived in Lithuania well into the middle ages.

Yes, and then? Wtf did it change in Western history? 99,9999 .. % of European population hardly knew what Lithuania was and that it existed on earth face!

[TheLeft]

I guess I'm having trouble grasping this. Can you walk us through the math?

It's really quite simple. I believe forms of religion are nonsense, rubbish, spurious etc. Therefore Christmas, as a religious festival, means as much as any other religious shindig. Nothing.

It's all a fraud.

[basics]

It's really quite simple. I believe forms of religion are nonsense, rubbish, spurious etc. Therefore Christmas, as a religious festival, means as much as any other religious shindig. Nothing.

It's all a fraud.

TheLeft,

Well it's only a fraud if it can be proven that Jesus Christ never existed and I guess history proves He did. It never fails to amaze me how often leftists get things all wrong despite the history of the world that surrounds them.

[Prodromos]

The trouble with "antitheists" isn't that they are ignorant, it's just they know so much that isn't so. For an average antitheist, proper education should consist less in learning new things, and more in unlearning popular falsehoods and misconceptions about history and reality.

This is a very helpful site.

https://historyforatheists.com

I am an atheist, sceptic and rationalist who is a subscribing member of the Atheist Foundation of Australia and a former state president of the Australian Skeptics. I have contributed to many atheism and scepticism fora over the years and have a posting record as a rationalist that goes back to at least 1992. I have a Bachelors Degree with Honours in English and History and a research Masters Degree from the University of Tasmania, with a specialisation in historicist analysis of medieval literature.

As a rationalist, I believe strongly that people should do all they can to put emotion, wishful thinking and ideology aside when examining any subject and that they should acquaint themselves as thoroughly as possible with the relevant scholarship and take account of any consensus of experts in any field before taking a position. Which is why I began this blog in October 2015. After over ten years of seeing supposed “rationalists”, most of them with no background in or even knowledge of history, using patent pseudo history as the basis for arguments against and attacks on religion, I felt someone needed to start correcting the popular misconceptions about history which are rife among many vocal atheist activists. I also felt there needed to be some push-back by a fellow unbeliever against several fringe theories and hopelessly outdated ideas which have no credibility among professional scholars and specialists, but which seem to be accepted almost without question by many or even most anti-theistic atheists. “History for Atheists” has grown out of these convictions.

[TheLeft]

TheLeft,

Well it's only a fraud if it can be proven that Jesus Christ never existed and I guess history proves He did. It never fails to amaze me how often leftists get things all wrong despite the history of the world that surrounds them.

No. Surely the point is not whether Jesus existed, it's about whether you believe him to be the Son of God and have divine status. I'm surprised that I'm having to remind you of that.

[Sar1n]

TheLeft,

Well it's only a fraud if it can be proven that Jesus Christ never existed and I guess history proves He did. It never fails to amaze me how often leftists get things all wrong despite the history of the world that surrounds them.

Every religion is a fraud. It requests something from people on justification that cannot be proven and has neither internal logic nor actual logical connection to reality, on virtue of resting on inherently arbitrary, non-causal element, that is god(s).

[basics]

No. Surely the point is not whether Jesus existed, it's about whether you believe him to be the Son of God and have divine status. I'm surprised that I'm having to remind you of that.

TheLeft,

My friend, you said it was all fraud yet you admit that He did exist so how do you come to the conclusion that it's all fraud? I don't have to be reminded of Who He is as that is ingrained in my heart now although for forty odd years it wasn't. I was forty when put on my knees and converted reading, hearing and seeing for myself ever since just Who he is. So, where's your evidence that it is fraud?

[TheLeft]

TheLeft,

My friend, you said it was all fraud yet you admit that He did exist so how do you come to the conclusion that it's all fraud? I don't have to be reminded of Who He is as that is ingrained in my heart now although for forty odd years it wasn't. I was forty when put on my knees and converted reading, hearing and seeing for myself ever since just Who he is. So, where's your evidence that it is fraud?

I literally just said that it's irrelevant as to whether Jesus existed, it's about whether you believe him to be the Son of God and divine. Personally I don't. The only evidence for Jesus being divine is the Bible, which is a like saying the god Marduk must exist because of the Ancient Sumerian texts, and that Batman is real because of DC Comics.

[basics]

Every religion is a fraud. It requests something from people on justification that cannot be proven and has neither internal logic nor actual logical connection to reality, on virtue of resting on inherently arbitrary, non-causal element, that is god(s).

Sar1n,

Every religion cannot be a fraud if it exists. It can be fraudulent if it doesn't deliver what it preaches and Christianity has delivered that ever since the fall of man, why? Because Jesus Christ is God.

[Sar1n]

Sar1n,

Every religion cannot be a fraud if it exists. It can be fraudulent if it doesn't deliver what it preaches and Christianity has delivered that ever since the fall of man, why? Because Jesus Christ is God.

No. No religion ever delivered a proof. Show me some tangible, empirical proof, not a 2000 year old collection of stories, that someone, anyone ever went to heaven, or any other afterlife that all those religions claim.

[Noble Savage]

As an atheist I see your point but I think that what faith is all about. I know it sounds inconsistent as miracles that are described in the Bible are big and bold and could be attributed to a deity and nowadays "miracles" can be explained by science but the whole point of faith in my opinion is to believe something without tangible proof .
I envy those with faith . My wife finds comfort and joy in it .

[Prodromos]

As an atheist I see your point but I think that what faith is all about. I know it sounds inconsistent as miracles that are described in the Bible are big and bold and could be attributed to a deity and nowadays "miracles" can be explained by science but the whole point of faith in my opinion is to believe something without tangible proof .
I envy those with faith . My wife finds comfort and joy in it .

No that's not what faith means -- not in Christianity at least. Faith essentially means trust or belief based on evidence.

[Noble Savage]

No that's not what faith means -- not in Christianity at least. Faith essentially means trust or belief based on evidence.

Maybe you're right for most of Christianity but I really only have exposure from the U.K Baptist church of which my wife is a member.
Their "handbook" describes their faith as
"God's Word is our final authority and we recognize its sufficiency."
This seems to be a common belief from chapters all around the world .

[Prodromos]

Maybe you're right for most of Christianity but I really only have exposure from the U.K Baptist church of which my wife is a member.
Their "handbook" describes their faith as
"God's Word is our final authority and we recognize its sufficiency."
This seems to be a common belief from chapters all around the world .

That quote is a reference to the doctrine of Sola Scriptura, which states that scripture is the highest source of authority in doctrinal issues, but that doesn't mean it is the only source of belief in God. Look into natural theology, which provides arguments for God not based in divine revelation.

[Sar1n]

That quote is a reference to the doctrine of Sola Scriptura, which states that scripture is the highest source of authority in doctrinal issues, but that doesn't mean it is the only source of belief in God. Look into natural theology, which provides arguments for God not based in divine revelation.

I see you've edited your previous post just as I was about to bust your poor reading skills. Oh well, another time...

Frankly, I despise this so-called "natural theology". It is, in short, attempt to find a niche where a god of the gaps could be placed and appear, to a layman, stable, and then go through leaps of faith to turn this idea into their god. It's short sighted and problematic. Some of basic tenets of science are, nothing is sacred and no preconceptions. Everything can be subject of scientific research, and if there is not empirical data available, it can be shelved until there are any, but never to be a priori excluded from research. The core of natural theology is to find one of these, stuff some half-baked philosophy in and call it god, creating whole heap of preconceptions about it.

[Noble Savage]

I had heard of natural theology before but never really followed up my interest . Thank you for the link , I'll be interested to find out what my wife's minister thinks of it and read a bit more about it .
Thanks