Announcement: Europa Barbarorum II 2.35 released!

[QuintusSertorius]

Excellent work and +1 rep for doing this! It was one of my major concerns in my latest Roman campaign that the Ptolemies were a little too weak, but now I think they will be much more stable and far abler to push back against invaders. By the time I broke my alliance and started a war against them in the late 2nd century BC, they were literally a one-settlement faction in the Siwa Oasis of the Egyptian-Libyan borderlands. It also wasn't just the Seleucids steamrolling them, it was the Sabaeans too!

The difference with AI-Ptolemaioi is that they won't have their heaviest Hellenistic recruitment pools in Egypt depleted, the way the player would.

For the player, there's something of a dichotomy. Pselkis is in an underdeveloped province on your southern-most border, with little to recommend it at the start. However, it's also the source of half the mining income for the entire faction, so it can't be ignored.

[Roma_Victrix]

The difference with AI-Ptolemaioi is that they won't have their heaviest Hellenistic recruitment pools in Egypt depleted, the way the player would.

That sounds fair, since an experienced human player can still crush the AI in most cases. I will certainly have to play as the Ptolemaioi sometime.

For the player, there's something of a dichotomy. Pselkis is in an underdeveloped province on your southern-most border, with little to recommend it at the start. However, it's also the source of half the mining income for the entire faction, so it can't be ignored.

Cool! I like how fortunes can fluctuate based on the ownership of this crucial settlement. Very interesting. It's certainly an incentive to hold onto it! It also means the AI Ptolemaioi won't go around steamrolling everyone if they lose it.

[Jervaj]

Update on the Ptolemaioi starting financial situation:

Attachment 357985

Those are the before and after pictures of the finance scroll. Changes are all to Egypt, rather than their wider holdings, incuding mines in Pselkis and Ptolemais-Theron (the latter doesn't make a big difference), and farming income boosts along the Nile.

Trade rights with Carthage, or peace with the Seleukids would cause the trade number to balloon. Not as precarious as before.

Nice. Its good that its based around Egypt. May be an interesting sucessor to play next iteration of the game specially if they get their mechanics expanded like the Seleucids.
I wonder though, how does the trade part work? Because you say it should also be a lot better if they make peace with the Seleucids/ get rights with Carthage. Why would it grow so much in those conditions despite the initial number been basically the same?

Pergamon doesn't have a relatively large Makedonian elite to draw from, like the major Successors. Most of their elites are Galatians and southern Anatolians. Arguably Pontos shouldn't have Hyperaspistai in that pool either, but for now they're there.

Im confused here about your answer. Hyperaspistai as I understand it based on the in game information are anatolian units, not makedonian (even if they may have makedonian influences), and in fact only Pontos gets them as a "core" unit. All the other helenistic factions that do get it (Pergamon included) do so as a regional only.

Given that the unit in theory hails from the are that is "homeland" of Pergamon it would make the most sense for them (if anyone at all should) to have it as part of their core roster.

I thought the lack of "Makedonian elites" was represented by the fact that they lacked Hypaspistai, Agema Phalangites and Peltastai Makedones, been the Heitaroi the only makedonian elite they had acess to.

[Sar1n]

Im confused here about your answer. Hyperaspistai as I understand it based on the in game information are anatolian units, not makedonian (even if they may have makedonian influences), and in fact only Pontos gets them as a "core" unit. All the other helenistic factions that do get it (Pergamon included) do so as a regional only.

Given that the unit in theory hails from the are that is "homeland" of Pergamon it would make the most sense for them (if anyone at all should) to have it as part of their core roster.

I thought the lack of "Makedonian elites" was represented by the fact that they lacked Hypaspistai, Agema Phalangites and Peltastai Makedones, been the Heitaroi the only makedonian elite they had acess to.

Same, I thought they're drawn from local elites-Greeks that settled Ionia centuries before and hellenized Anatolians, rather than Macedonian settlers.

[QuintusSertorius]

Im confused here about your answer. Hyperaspistai as I understand it based on the in game information are anatolian units, not makedonian (even if they may have makedonian influences), and in fact only Pontos gets them as a "core" unit. All the other helenistic factions that do get it (Pergamon included) do so as a regional only.

Given that the unit in theory hails from the are that is "homeland" of Pergamon it would make the most sense for them (if anyone at all should) to have it as part of their core roster.

I thought the lack of "Makedonian elites" was represented by the fact that they lacked Hypaspistai, Agema Phalangites and Peltastai Makedones, been the Heitaroi the only makedonian elite they had acess to.

Same, I thought they're drawn from local elites-Greeks that settled Ionia centuries before and hellenized Anatolians, rather than Macedonian settlers.

Hyperaspistai are a Greek unit that comes from the western coast, and yes they're supposed to be regional-only. It's more because of the shortage of anything else that fits the bill for an elite that Pontos have them.

Pergamon's elites are supposed to be Galatians and southern Anatolians, which Hyperaspistai aren't.

[Sar1n]

Hyperaspistai are a Greek unit that comes from the western coast, and yes they're supposed to be regional-only. It's more because of the shortage of anything else that fits the bill for an elite that Pontos have them.

Pergamon's elites are supposed to be Galatians and southern Anatolians, which Hyperaspistai aren't.

...Pontos has at least 7 elite or semi-elite types of troops from Basilike Patris, that's more than any other faction. Aswar i Khuweshwandan, scythed chariots, Peltastai Logades/Bosporitai Logades after reforms, Hyperaspistai/Thorakitai Epilektoi after reforms, Lydian Lancers if built in right settlement, Agema Phalangitai, Galatian Retainers and Hyperaspistai.
Compare with Pergamon who gets from their top goverment Hetairoi, Lydian Lancers, Galatian cavalry, Galatian Retainers, Galatian Colonists, Thorakitai Epilektoi and Phalangitai, it looks very much like Pergamon is just a Pontos' poor cousin when it comes to unit selection.

I'd suggest leaving Pontos with just Logades for elite swordsmen and giving Pergamon Hyperaspistai for keeps even after Thorakitai reforms. It makes IMO no sense that Pontos has both AP and non-AP elite swordsmen available, while Pergamon has none.

[QuintusSertorius]

...Pontos has at least 7 elite or semi-elite types of troops from Basilike Patris, that's more than any other faction. Aswar i Khuweshwandan, scythed chariots, Peltastai Logades/Bosporitai Logades after reforms, Hyperaspistai/Thorakitai Epilektoi after reforms, Lydian Lancers if built in right settlement, Agema Phalangitai, Galatian Retainers and Hyperaspistai.
Compare with Pergamon who gets from their top goverment Hetairoi, Lydian Lancers, Galatian cavalry, Galatian Retainers, Galatian Colonists, Thorakitai Epilektoi and Phalangitai, it looks very much like Pergamon is just a Pontos' poor cousin when it comes to unit selection.

I'd suggest leaving Pontos with just Logades for elite swordsmen and giving Pergamon Hyperaspistai for keeps even after Thorakitai reforms. It makes IMO no sense that Pontos has both AP and non-AP elite swordsmen available, while Pergamon has none.

The historians have already ruled out giving Pergamon Hyperaspistai in their elite pool; as I said it's much more likely Pontos will simply lose them and they'll revert to being the regional-only unit they're supposed to be.

[Sar1n]

The historians have already ruled out giving Pergamon Hyperaspistai in their elite pool; as I said it's much more likely Pontos will simply lose them and they'll revert to being the regional-only unit they're supposed to be.

That makes me sad:/ Hyperaspistai are beautiful and quite unique unit. You'll be reducing it virtually to oblivion by that.

Anyway...I feel like starting a new campaign, do you still need testers for something?

[QuintusSertorius]

That makes me sad:/ Hyperaspistai are beautiful and quite unique unit. You'll be reducing it virtually to oblivion by that.

Anyway...I feel like starting a new campaign, do you still need testers for something?

They're available from the polis in about four settlements forever, they're supposed to be a rare elite.

[Rad]

Anyway...I feel like starting a new campaign, do you still need testers for something?

Yeah, do you need testers?

[Sar1n]

They're available from the polis in about four settlements forever, they're supposed to be a rare elite.

Okay. I thought it'll be same as in 2.3/2.35, when they were available only from one settlement and only until Thorakitai reforms.

[QuintusSertorius]

Okay. I thought it'll be same as in 2.3/2.35, when they were available only from one settlement and only until Thorakitai reforms.

So they do, forgetting my own code. Yes, they disappear with the ThorakitaiReform, but are available in Mysia, Bithynia and Ionia.

[Jervaj]

Hyperaspistai are a Greek unit that comes from the western coast, and yes they're supposed to be regional-only. It's more because of the shortage of anything else that fits the bill for an elite that Pontos have them.

Pergamon's elites are supposed to be Galatians and southern Anatolians, which Hyperaspistai aren't.

Nice. That makes sense, so they are indeed a regional unit as they seemed like. Is just a filler case scenario.

Im wondering though seeing you mention it now, what are those southern Anatolians that are Pergamon's elites? They do get great access to galatians that become quite bulky, specially after armor upgrades, and the western anatolian regional elites like the discussed Hyperaspistai or the Peltastai Logades and then Heitaroi as a makedonian unit. Are those units you mention work in progress?

[QuintusSertorius]

Nice. That makes sense, so they are indeed a regional unit as they seemed like. Is just a filler case scenario.

Im wondering though seeing you mention it now, what are those southern Anatolians that are Pergamon's elites? They do get great access to galatians that become quite bulky, specially after armor upgrades, and the western anatolian regional elites like the discussed Hyperaspistai or the Peltastai Logades and then Heitaroi as a makedonian unit. Are those units you mention work in progress?

The only unit that really fits are the Hippomachoi. I can't remember if it's in 2.35 or not, but Hetairoi have been reduced to a single point pool for everyone, with another elite lancer unit alongside them. For Pergamon, that's the Lydians.

[QuintusSertorius]

A more detailed report from playtesting on the new Rebel script:

Ok, so I wasn't able to do the 100 turns as planned, mostly due to me being silly and updating the build during a test, so lesson learned there.

But, I was able to get 50 turns done. What I can say is that from what I can tell, the new rebel script operates very well. Every 4-5 turns I would end up having a stack somewhere in my domain, and it was pretty evenly spread. The old troublesome regions had more, but I didn't feel annoyed by them like I used to. They seemed more spread out, so when the time came to fight a stack in a troublesome region it didn't feel like a chore. Also, the new Raeti units look very nice, and it was nice to see the AI using them.

Strength wise, I think they are perfect. Not too strong, but not weak enough that they wouldn't seige a city with 4 units in it. I was pretty surprised that they attacked my cities as they did, and having a roving patrol was effective at cleaning house as needed. So all in all, the new rebels are an improvement over the old ones in:

1) Frequency, they occur often enough to slow me down but not enough to where I was annoyed.
2) Strength, they are stronger and more aggressive, which leads me to actually NEED to deal with them.
3) They aren't tricked by watchtowers, this was one of the most interesting things to me, they didn't sit on watchtowers like the old rebels did, maybe due to being properly led?
4) Dispersion, more frequent in the old troubled lands and less in the normal. I wish I took a screenshot to show how the AI was coping with it.

[Sar1n]

Ah, that is great. It'll require a change in my usual style, but it's going to be fun. Last time I had rebels sieging my towns was in Pontic campaign, by roaming Galatian stack. But usually, all that's needed is to grab a part of nearby town's garrisson and autoresolve it.

[Jervaj]

The only unit that really fits are the Hippomachoi. I can't remember if it's in 2.35 or not, but Hetairoi have been reduced to a single point pool for everyone, with another elite lancer unit alongside them. For Pergamon, that's the Lydians.

Yes. In this vesrion you also get them from the goverment building on top of the usual sources. Its actually the unit I had in mind but I guess I was a bit confused as I dont fully consider them an elite even if they are recruited from the top classes as I always see them as thesallins smaller brothers. Still a very solid cavalry unit I love to have access. I appreciate them a lot specially with the KH due to their good cavalry scarcity until the reforms kick in barring as you cant always have some thessalins at hand jeje.

Do you expect more anatolian untis in the near or distant future that may form part of Pergamon's factional recruitment?

[QuintusSertorius]

The only remaining Anatolian unit, barring a proper bodyguard for Pontos, is a late, shielded medium cavalry unit.

[NapoleonMaster]

Can we expect to have the new Pontic bodyguard in the next version?.

[QuintusSertorius]

Can we expect to have the new Pontic bodyguard in the next version?.

In the patch, no; no one is even working on it.

In 2.4, possibly. Some of the modelling team have said they'd like to get all the bodyguards done.