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Thread: Alexandria and Memphis shouldn't be surrounded by a desert

  1. #1
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar I am your sovereign now
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    Icon9 Alexandria and Memphis shouldn't be surrounded by a desert

    Ever heard of the Nile River? No? Not really? Apparently.

    Why exactly are great Egyptian cities of the Ptolemaic Kingdom surrounded by desert? With only a few palm trees and bushes scattered here and there, barely enough for an oasis? Especially Alexandria, which existed not only in the Nile Delta region but along the shores of the Mediterranean and obviously would have lush green environs. The contemporary Republican era Romans even depicted Ptolemaic Egypt this way in the famous Nile Mosaic of Palestrina, made circa 100 BC.



    It reminds me of my US Marine Corps buddy who partook in the occupation of Iraq back in the Bush era of the 2000s. He's generally knowledgeable about things now, but back then he was just an ignorant kid and was surprised when he got to Iraq and saw a bunch of lush green landscapes and palm trees everywhere around Baghdad. He honestly swallowed the silly stereotypes about the Middle East being one gigantic desert inhabited by some lizards, a few camels here and there, some nomads. Apparently you guys slurp from the same cup.

    Might want to fix that in future iterations of the game, if only for the sake of historical accuracy, which you guys take seriously otherwise.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Alexandria and Memphis shouldn't be surrounded by a desert

    What would help us "the EB2 Team" are acedemic maps and studies (covering our timeframe) that investigate these geographic areas that you are concerned about.

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    Roma_Victrix's Avatar I am your sovereign now
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    Default Re: Alexandria and Memphis shouldn't be surrounded by a desert

    Quote Originally Posted by (:Baktra:) View Post
    What would help us "the EB2 Team" are acedemic maps and studies (covering our timeframe) that investigate these geographic areas that you are concerned about.
    While that would be cool and useful for geographic regions of Central Asia that aren't well known to a global audience, I'm talking about the Nile River in Egypt, which is one of the most well known regions on Earth. This is the sort of stuff you learn about in grade school. Making all of Egypt look like an endless desert would be like making Greece nothing but mountains, just mountains everywhere, nothing else but mountains, mountains, mountains, too steep even for a goat to trot along the edge of one. At least the stereotype of ancient Germania being a gigantic forest was somewhat true (minus the Iron Age village clearings and later Roman cities along the Rhine).

  4. #4

    Default Re: Alexandria and Memphis shouldn't be surrounded by a desert

    The dev team deserves better than having you here spouting nonsense and insulting them.

    If you have any specific concerns, then do post a screenshot of the area of Egypt that you think should be changed.

    And do post the sources that make you think the current representation is wrong. Baktra already told you to give links to sources like maps or geographical studies.

    Your buddy stay in Iraq doesn't qualify as a source, sorry.

  5. #5
    Lusitanio's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Alexandria and Memphis shouldn't be surrounded by a desert

    While I understand what you mean Roma_Victrix, there are certainly better ways to say it.
    In any case, in order to concept that region in the best historically accurate way, we always appreciate academic articles and studies covering that region on the correct time period so that we can try to better represent the area. I do express my utmost respect and admiration for the modders who work on the maps as I have had no luck figuring out how to work on it.

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    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Alexandria and Memphis shouldn't be surrounded by a desert

    Come on, Guys, don't take Roma_Victrix verbatim, he's using his flashy language, but he's got something in mind. Disregard his style, relax. He doesn't mean insulting anybody (iiuc). It's worth discussing, even if he might be wrong.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Alexandria and Memphis shouldn't be surrounded by a desert

    You’re bringing up a legitimate problem, but you could really use a bit more... tact.

  8. #8
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar I am your sovereign now
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    Default Re: Alexandria and Memphis shouldn't be surrounded by a desert

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellenikon View Post
    The dev team deserves better than having you here spouting nonsense and insulting them.

    If you have any specific concerns, then do post a screenshot of the area of Egypt that you think should be changed.

    And do post the sources that make you think the current representation is wrong. Baktra already told you to give links to sources like maps or geographical studies.

    Your buddy stay in Iraq doesn't qualify as a source, sorry.
    LOL. This reads like a parody of a reactionary response I would expect from a contrarian.

    I specifically said Alexandria and Memphis. Not sure how to get more specific than the exact sites of either those two cities, but while we're at it, Hibis located in "Oasis Megale" should, I don't know, include an actual green oasis of some kind? Not just another endless desert with two or three trees in the distance?

    You act as if you need some detailed academic tome in order to Google "Nile River Delta in Egypt". Here's one of the first results:



    Gee, I wonder why Roma_Victrix would insist that Alexandria should look significantly greener instead of a desert? Perhaps because it's surrounded by scenery like this, especially around Lake Mariout:




    Or just how things were historically, as the Nile Mosaic of Palestrina created by the Romans perfectly illustrates, with tons of wildlife, savannah swamplands, and farms:



    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    Come on, Guys, don't take Roma_Victrix verbatim, he's using his flashy language, but he's got something in mind. Disregard his style, relax. He doesn't mean insulting anybody (iiuc). It's worth discussing, even if he might be wrong.
    Wrong about what exactly? There's a reason why Egypt was desired by the Romans, it was an enormous breadbasket for the empire and you don't get all of that grain without farmland. It's not even exclusively about farmland, it's also about the flooded savannah marshlands of the Nile Delta. You see next to nothing of this in the game, not even in field battles along the Nile save a tiny stretch of green that realistically stretches out far wider than depicted in the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lusitanio View Post
    While I understand what you mean Roma_Victrix, there are certainly better ways to say it.
    In any case, in order to concept that region in the best historically accurate way, we always appreciate academic articles and studies covering that region on the correct time period so that we can try to better represent the area. I do express my utmost respect and admiration for the modders who work on the maps as I have had no luck figuring out how to work on it.
    Google is your friend. It too me less than a minute to find this: The Nile on Livius.org.

    It details not just what the ancient Greeks and Romans thought about the Nile, but even showcases tons of ancient artwork of Nile scenery and wildlife, since the Greeks and Romans were intrigued by creatures like Egyptian crocodiles, hippopotamuses, and cobras. As the article explains, soldiers of Alexander the Great even compared the Indus River in South Asia to the Nile on account of the crocodiles. Of course the article also explains what the native Egyptians thought about their own river, structuring their daily lives and yearly routines around its annual flooding.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Alexandria and Memphis shouldn't be surrounded by a desert

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    While that would be cool and useful for geographic regions of Central Asia that aren't well known to a global audience, I'm talking about the Nile River in Egypt, which is one of the most well known regions on Earth. This is the sort of stuff you learn about in grade school. Making all of Egypt look like an endless desert would be like making Greece nothing but mountains, just mountains everywhere, nothing else but mountains, mountains, mountains, too steep even for a goat to trot along the edge of one. At least the stereotype of ancient Germania being a gigantic forest was somewhat true (minus the Iron Age village clearings and later Roman cities along the Rhine).
    I am not in disagreement with you about there being limitations to the campaign map, but to correct these, it starts with academic geographic data and research.

    If there are areas of improvement, then fans are more than welcome to make comments. But the important thing to remember is that us Devs are pretty busy working on other aspects of the game, so if a fan has a particular vision for how they would like things to be, it will greatly increase the fan's chances of getting their wish by presenting their arguments backed up with excellent data and research

    PS. Google maps isnt always a perfect source, because its showing the modern geography, which in this case includes modern irrigation. And the Google Satellite image is just a snapshot for how that region looks on that particular day, not how it changes throughout the year.
    Last edited by (:Baktra:); March 31, 2021 at 11:16 PM.

  10. #10
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar I am your sovereign now
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    Default Re: Alexandria and Memphis shouldn't be surrounded by a desert

    Quote Originally Posted by (:Baktra:) View Post
    I am not in disagreement with you about there being limitations to the campaign map, but to correct these, it starts with academic geographic data and research.

    If there are areas of improvement, then fans are more than welcome to make comments. But the important thing to remember is that us Devs are pretty busy working on other aspects of the game, so if a fan has a particular vision for how they would like things to be, it will greatly increase the fan's chances of getting their wish by presenting their arguments backed up with excellent data and research

    PS. Google maps isnt always a perfect source, because its showing the modern geography, which in this case includes modern irrigation. And the Google Satellite image is just a snapshot for how that region looks on that particular day, not how it changes throughout the year.
    I understand that, but again, even this isn't some arcane stuff tucked away in the special collections archives of a university library somewhere, it's found in mainstream ancient Greek historiography and geography. It's mentioned repeatedly in that Livius.org link I already shared in my previous post. Putting aside the snippets provided in actual native Egyptian historical sources (i.e. chronicles but also poems, epistle letters, etc.) predating the more professional Greek-inspired historiographic work of Manetho, the contemporary Greek historians and geographers unsurprisingly made numerous comments about the Nile River and occasionally Egypt's wildlife, flora and fauna.

    For instance, the Greco-Roman geographer Strabo of the 1st century BC, relying largely on the esteemed 3rd century BC Ptolemaic geographer, astronomer and mathematician Eratosthenes, in this primary source document of the Geographica (Γεωγραφικά) provided by Tufts University (translated by H.C. Hamilton, Esq., W. Falconer, M.A., Ed). Strabo talks about the summer rains and flooding of the Nile, the various tributary rivers of the Nile that feed into it from lakes and mountains, and the various peoples populating the Nile in Egypt, Sudan (Nubia) and Ethiopia (Aksum, with the Blue Nile tributary). Strabo even explicitly contrasts Ethiopia with Egypt, saying the former has mostly barren soil leading to nomadism while the latter is incredibly fertile and hence cultivates a settled, civilized lifestyle for its inhabitants:

    Quote Originally Posted by From Strabo, Book XVII, Chapter 1
    The Nile produces some common effects in this and the contiguous tract of country, namely, that of the Ethiopians above it, in watering them at the time of its rise, and leaving those parts only habitable which have been covered by the inundation; it intersects the higher lands, and all the tract elevated above its current on both sides, which however are uninhabited and a desert, from an absolute want of water. But the Nile does not traverse the whole of Ethiopia, nor alone, nor in a straight line, nor a country which is well inhabited. But Egypt it traverses both alone and entirely, and in a straight line, from the lesser cataract above Syene and Elephantina, (which are the boundaries of Egypt and Ethiopia,) to the mouths by which it discharges itself into the sea. The Ethiopians at present lead for the most part a wandering life, and are destitute of the means of subsistence, on account of the barrenness of the soil, the disadvantages of climate, and their great distance from us.

    Now the contrary is the case with the Egyptians in all these respects. For they have lived from the first under a regular form of government, they were a people of civilized manners, and were settled in a well-known country; their institutions have been recorded and mentioned in terms of praise, for they seemed to have availed themselves of the fertility of their country in the best possible manner by the partition of it (and by the classification of persons) which they adopted, and by their general care.
    Ancient Greek literature is littered with stuff like this, but quite frankly you could simply just read Strabo (d. 24 AD) for a contemporary account of Egypt in the EBII timeline. Quite frankly I'm surprised I have to tell you any of this considering how you guys directly quote Strabo throughout your local descriptions of provinces that appear in the building browser. Perhaps this is a classic case of various team members not communicating with one another.

    Strabo surmises that geometry was first invented in Egypt due to the need to demarcate the boundaries of nomes and private properties that became hazy due to the enormous amount of flooding. He then remarks how this very same flooding has led to the wise use of irrigation with canals and embankments, allowing for cultivation of fruit and foodstuffs. He explicitly mentions how riverine crafts travel from island to island throughout the Nile River Delta region. Islands of the Delta aren't something you see on the battle map either, yet the feature prominently in the Roman mosaic from Italy depicting Ptolemaic Egypt that I've already shared above in the OP. Strabo even says that cities and villages built on high terrain are surrounded by water during the annual flooding, making them into islands as if they were in the middle of a sea. When the water subsides in the Delta region, Strabo explains that's when the floodplains are cultivated by farmers with ploughing and sowing.

    Strabo then explicitly says the country south of the Delta is irrigated in a similar way! However, he makes it clear that the Nile River south of the wide Delta region has a very limited amount of greenery on either side of the river (as opposed to the Delta, which turns into a sea of marshlands):

    Quote Originally Posted by From Strabo, Book XVII, Chapter 1
    The country above the Delta is irrigated in the same manner, except that the river flows in a straight line to the distance of about 4000 stadia in one channel, unless where some island intervenes, the most considerable of which comprises the Heracleiotic Nome; or, where it is diverted by a canal into a large lake, or a tract of country which it is capable of irrigating, as the lake Mœris and the Arsino´te Nome, or where the canals discharge themselves into the Mareotis.

    In short, Egypt, from the mountains of Ethiopia to the vertex of the Delta, is merely a river tract on each side of the Nile, and rarely if anywhere comprehends in one continued line a habitable territory of 300 stadia in breadth. It resembles, except the frequent diversions of its course, a bandage rolled out.
    If anything, the Nile River valley would have been even greener in antiquity, given these descriptions by Strabo, and the aerial photo above does that no justice since the modern Nile River has been slowly drying up. This is much like the Maghreb (Mauretania, Numidia, Carthage, western Libya), which in ancient times was lush and green, something you guys depict accurately in the game instead of how it looks today, largely deforested and barren with eroded soil. This is what makes Egypt so disappointing, since you show it as green on the campaign map like Maghreb, but only the latter looks correct on the battle map and Egypt looks like the middle of the Libyan Desert instead of the lush Nile where nearly all of its inhabitants lived in cities and farmlands.

    As for the main premise of the OP, which stresses that Alexandria and Memphis should be lush and green, here is how Strabo explicitly describes Alexandria, surrounded on all sides by water with the Mediterranean harbor and the lakes of the interior that produce a lush, swampy landscape:

    Quote Originally Posted by Strabo, Book XVII, Chapter 1
    The advantages of the city are of various kinds. The site is washed by two seas; on the north, by what is called the Egyptian Sea, and on the south, by the sea of the lake Mareia, which is also called Mareotis. This lake is filled by many canals from the Nile, both by those above and those at the sides, through which a greater quantity of merchandise is imported than by those communicating with the sea. Hence the harbour on the lake is richer than the maritime harbour. The exports by sea from Alexandreia exceed the imports. This any person may ascertain, either at Alexandreia or DicŠarchia, by watching the arrival and departure of the merchant vessels, and observing how much heavier or lighter their cargoes are when they depart or when they return.

    In addition to the wealth derived from merchandise landed at the harbours on each side, on the sea and on the lake, its fine air is worthy of remark: this results from the city being on two sides surrounded by water, and from the favourable effects of the rise of the Nile. For other cities, situated near lakes, have, during the heats of summer, a heavy and suffocating atmosphere, and lakes at their margins become swampy by the evaporation occasioned by the sun's heat. When a large quantity of moisture is exhaled from swamps, a noxious vapour rises, and is the cause of pestilential disorders. But at Alexandreia, at the beginning of summer, the Nile, being full, fills the lake also, and leaves no marshy matter which is likely to occasion malignant exhalations. At the same period, the Etesian winds blow from the north, over a large expanse of sea, and the Alexandrines in consequence pass their summer very pleasantly. [8]

    The shape of the site of the city is that of a chlamys or military cloak. The sides, which determine the length, are surrounded by water, and are about thirty stadia in extent; but the isthmuses, which determine the breadth of the sides, are each of seven or eight stadia, bounded on one side by the sea, and on the other by the lake. The whole city is intersected by roads for the passage of horsemen and chariots. Two of these are very broad, exceeding a plethrum in breadth, and cut one another at right angles. It contains also very beautiful public grounds and royal palaces, which occupy a fourth or even a third part of its whole extent. For as each of the kings was desirous of adding some embellishment to the places dedicated to the public use, so, besides the buildings already existing, each of them erected a building at his own expense; hence the expression of the poet may be here applied, “‘one after the other springs.’17” All the buildings are connected with one another and with the harbour, and those also which are beyond it.
    Need I say more? Alexandria was one of the most important cities of antiquity, the center of the Hellenistic Greek world after the decline of Classical Athens, and yet you guys depict it as a desert. LOL. No. False. Bad EBII! That's a bad EBII! Go to your room! Without supper! You're grounded, mister!

  11. #11
    Domaje's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Alexandria and Memphis shouldn't be surrounded by a desert

    Honestly this looks like a very minor and easy modification to do. Just to recolor some pixels on the settlement's location in the map_climates.tga file.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Alexandria and Memphis shouldn't be surrounded by a desert

    I specifically said Alexandria and Memphis. Not sure how to get more specific than the exact sites of either those two cities, but while we're at it, Hibis located in "Oasis Megale"
    You have yet to provide what has been asked.

    Show a ingame picture of what you think is wrong, specify the tile that is arid but should be something else.

    Then suggest some academic research that suggest that those areas were effectively more lush that they are depicted.

    All those ancient sources you linked say nothing about your claim. What does Strabo consider "the Nile"? The Nile isn't Egypt. The Fayum Oasis is already represented.

    Can YOU provide an answer to this question:
    - How many Km of green land extended from the river to the interior.
    - How large were the cultivable lands that surrounded alexandria and memphis.

    That is obviously a lot harder to come by, and yes it requires going to academic sources.

    Your whole premise is argued in the worst way imaginable, just saying general stuff and leaving all the burden of proof on the dev team to research it for you.

    If you want anything changed, then do your own work and suggest exactly why all those kilometers of land should be green and not arid. And a generic claim from a classical author "egypt is fertile and green" means nothing. It doesn't have physical boundaries. Doing a Ctrl+v about irrelevant stuff doesn't improve your point either.

    This is a waste of my time, I'm done talking with you.

  13. #13
    Morrowgan's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: Alexandria and Memphis shouldn't be surrounded by a desert

    Why do people on this forum always have to be so stuck up and salty? Especially since Roma_Victrix is citing primary sources which can be a basis for debate.
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  14. #14
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar I am your sovereign now
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    Default Re: Alexandria and Memphis shouldn't be surrounded by a desert

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellenikon View Post
    This is a waste of my time, I'm done talking with you.
    The exact km of green landscape? Are you joking? What ancient primary source was ever that thorough aside from rare ostraca/papyri dealing with the plotted boundaries of a farmer's private property? The vast majority of EBII terrain mapping is naturally guesswork based on vague statements in ancient primary sources, maybe some written reports of archaeology, and pretending otherwise is ludicrous. Even so, as you'll see below, Strabo was kind enough to give a general estimate measured in stadia for the breadth of habitable green space along the length of the Nile south of the Delta region.

    Strabo's description of Alexandria is more than sufficient for anyone with a functioning brain who has the editing skills to stick a lake next to it with some greenery at the very least, along with a Mediterranean shoreline and obviously some farms. Instead we have a giant desert with scattered shrubs, which is far less historically authentic than what I'm suggesting. Strabo said the environment around Alexandria was similar to a swamp, which is basically the opposite of a desert.

    In fact, his description of islands and inundated landscapes seems awfully similar to the depiction of the Nile Delta in the Roman mosaic I've already displayed in the OP. Are you suggesting the Romans are liars who deviously planned to deceive people thousands of years into the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morrowgan View Post
    Why do people on this forum always have to be so stuck up and salty? Especially since Roma_Victrix is citing primary sources which can be a basis for debate.
    Beats me. He came into this thread guns blazing from the very start and I honestly have no patience for his theatrics, getting defensive over the mildest sarcasm in the OP (which Jurand of Cracow correctly observed as my style of posting). Leads me to believe he actually did think the Nile River valley was a big ole desert and, with the passion of 10,000 burning suns, hates the fact that I educated him about something he doesn't know anything about.

    Also food for thought: Strabo clearly says that south of the Nile Delta virtually nobody lived beyond the long dual chain of mountains that flanked the lush green areas surrounding the riverbanks, meaning Memphis and other cities like it wouldn't have been far from the river itself and hence within "the habitable territory of 300 stadia in breadth" on either side of the river. Hellenikon is sitting here complaining that I didn't give exact kilometers of green territory when he just needs to convert stadia to kilometers.

    The answer: 300 stadia = 55.5 km.
    In other words, an enormous freaking amount of green territory around the river compared to what you see on the battle map.

    Since he is insistent on seeing the battle map, here's Memphis, which looks like a giant desert and should instead look like a green Nile floodplain, something he could have easily ascertained if he booted up the game and sent a spawned army there to view it during a test siege:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by Lifthrasir; April 01, 2021 at 08:16 AM. Reason: Personal ref. removed

  15. #15
    Lifthrasir's Avatar "Capre" Dunkerquois
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    Default Re: Alexandria and Memphis shouldn't be surrounded by a desert

    Gentlemen, this is a quick reminder that personal references aren't allowed here and that the debate has to stay civil and respectful as per the ToS. Further digression will be dealt accordingly.
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    Default Re: Alexandria and Memphis shouldn't be surrounded by a desert






    https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...fig3_260675687

    Something like these would be acceptable. I havent read these articles, but these maps provide the information that we need. Especially the last image I posted, I will need to read through that article, because it is concerning exactly what we are talking about.

    Edit:
    Better yet some maps depicting the evolution of the Nile Delta would be great.

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...7737911630659X

    This article has a good map.
    Last edited by (:Baktra:); April 01, 2021 at 09:08 AM.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Alexandria and Memphis shouldn't be surrounded by a desert

    I went into the game and checked, it's not as bad as I thought. Sure, Alexandria is slightly outside the green zone, but the rest looks OK to me. It's a smaller issue.

  18. #18
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Alexandria and Memphis shouldn't be surrounded by a desert

    Thanks, @Baktra, this is very informative. I personally haven't realised how big the Fayum lake was. Also thanks @RomaVictrix - much information in your materials (and I trust livus.org very much).
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    Lusitanio's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Alexandria and Memphis shouldn't be surrounded by a desert

    Thanks for making the post Roma_Victrix. I agree with you that it should be less desert and more vegetation.
    +1 rep from me

  20. #20
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar I am your sovereign now
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    Default Re: Alexandria and Memphis shouldn't be surrounded by a desert

    Quote Originally Posted by (:Baktra:) View Post





    https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...fig3_260675687

    Something like these would be acceptable. I havent read these articles, but these maps provide the information that we need. Especially the last image I posted, I will need to read through that article, because it is concerning exactly what we are talking about.

    Edit:
    Better yet some maps depicting the evolution of the Nile Delta would be great.

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...7737911630659X

    This article has a good map.
    Heh, topography sure is fun isn't it!

    Notice the discrepancy between maps #2 and #3 around Lake Mariout (Mareotis Lagoon). The second map, which includes place names and territories of classical antiquity, has the entire lake surrounded by inhabited lands like the rest of the Nile Delta shaded in the same way, whereas the third map, depicting modern terrain, has the lake bordered by a desert. This leads me to believe the desert has advanced towards the lake these past 2,000 years, because Strabo says nothing about a desert or an arid landscape at all, he says the lake region around Alexandria is basically a giant swamp where the air is humid (hence his pre-modern ideas about the spread of disease through noxious vapors in the air).

    Quote Originally Posted by Hirtius View Post
    I went into the game and checked, it's not as bad as I thought. Sure, Alexandria is slightly outside the green zone, but the rest looks OK to me. It's a smaller issue.
    Wrong. This is literally what Alexandria looks like in the game, again, a giant desert almost totally devoid of greenery save a few brushes or trees in the distance, almost as barren as the Gobi Desert, looks more like the Libyan Desert, certainly not a lake in sight, but if I remember correctly the Mediterranean Sea was at least in the distance:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    Thanks, @Baktra, this is very informative. I personally haven't realised how big the Fayum lake was. Also thanks @RomaVictrix - much information in your materials (and I trust livus.org very much).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lusitanio View Post
    Thanks for making the post Roma_Victrix. I agree with you that it should be less desert and more vegetation.
    +1 rep from me
    You're very welcome! Glad to be of service. We should all be thankful that Strabo's geography has survived, along with the musings of Eratosthenes that he preserved. I'd have to search more for detailed topographical maps like the ones Baktra shared.

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