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Thread: Discussion about future TW games, Medieval, Pike and Shot and Empire

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    TheRomanRuler's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Discussion about future TW games, Medieval, Pike and Shot and Empire

    So, Medieval 3 would be logical next game. However, Pikemen never really worked too well in Medieval 2. They were acceptable if crossbows could shoot over your pikemen, but any kind of pike and shot failed miserably and did not work at all. Pike and shot is incredibly complex formation, especially if supported by artillery. It really needs it's own game.


    Medieval 3 should be almost entirely traditional warfare, maybe even leave castles as kings (in other words, no siege cannons). Not sure when Medieval 3 should start, i would be fine with Fall of Rome, and it should end before gunpowder becomes too dominating - perhaps in 1400?
    Pike and Shot would be beginning of gunpowder era. It would start with mostly traditional armies, little before Ottomans blast their way into Constantinople. And have it end before proper line infantry was a thing. So at latest it would end in 1700, but even 1640s could be fine.
    Then Empire 3 would be all about line infantry. Arguably, line infantry started when tercios became more about firepower and became wider rectangles rather than sguares, so something like 1640s. But 1700s is good start date too. End it when line infantry was still main force in battlefield, so 1870s maybe? It certainly should not have machine guns, they need their own game and sguad based tactics which wont work in Total Wars.


    So, why would i want to remove gunpowder and pikemen from medieval 3 even when they excisted in real life? Because you end up with something like Medieval 2, where most of the game focuses on traditional warfare but then you also have some gunpowder units. No focus is put to them, so they are really unpleasant to use and annoying to end the game with Medieval is about traditional warfare. It should be crowned with Knights. Knights should be your reward in end game - not something you need to get rid of.
    Same with tercios. You work your entire game fighting with pike and shot formations, only for late game to be something entirely different...

    People don't play Medieval to play with gunpowder units. They play it to fight traditional war with knights in heavy armor. And people don't play Pike and Shot era games because they like line infantry. People play Empire for that. End game should be best time of the game, something that crowns the entire game and brings it to epic conclusion. Just like in end of Rome Total War you got Lorica Segmentata Legionnaries so many are fans of. That is your reward for building up your empire. That is what you have worked towards your entire game. You don't want them taken away from you with something completely different that might not even work well in that game because of how different it is (though this is not issue in Rome (1 or 2) TW, it was big issue in Medieval (2))

    So please, give us either games with certain theme that does not get broken in end game, or allow us to disable certain things both from campaign and multiplayer.



    About gatling guns in Fall of Samurai, they worked because you could get rid of them with your own artillery and they were so expensive. Something like that might be acceptable. But if you would make gatling guns cheaper, game would be too much about them and that would not work at all. But when they are this expensive, they are not really worth it. So just dont include them at all/give us option to get rid of them.


    And ironically, Medieval 2 Line infantry works a lot better than Pike and shot that preceded line infantry. Granted, line infantry is also closer to crossbowmen than tercio formations are. Just goes to show how important it is to make game that entirely focuses on pike and shot warfare, there is that much work to be done, it is that big challenge.

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    HigoChumbo's Avatar Definitely not Jom.
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    Default Re: Discussion about future TW games, Medieval, Pike and Shot and Empire

    Why is Medieval 3 the next logical game? Seeing that the two last titles have been Warhammer and China, doesn't look like CA is going by "logic"

    Pike and Shot would be beginning of gunpowder era. It would start with mostly traditional armies, little before Ottomans blast their way into Constantinople. And have it end before proper line infantry was a thing. So at latest it would end in 1700
    This is my dream TW game (stretching it to 1715 to include the whole reign of Louis XIV and a major conflict like the War of Spanish Succession), so I'm totally fine with CA leaving that period out of Medieval game (though I'd rather have them do that instead of Medieval next, I see no point on doing sequels when there are still amazing major settings to explore).


    In any case, even if they extended Medieval 3 until the late 15th century, you should be fine if they stick to an accurate representation of history, since it wasn't until the late 15th century and early 16th century when gunpowder weapons started to become widespread in the battlefield, so they could still include gunpowder in the late game of Medieval 3 in the form of just artillery and maybe a few niche, small hand-gunner units, similar to how they might implement Byzantine flamethrowers a few centuries earlier.



    And yes, I agree, I'd hate a lazy Pike&Shot implementation with line infantry combat instead of proper tercio implementation, so I'm happy to wait until they nail it (and make a brand new game... every single game since Empire has been an iterative...)


    And ironically, Medieval 2 Line infantry works a lot better than Pike and shot that preceded line infantry. Granted, line infantry is also closer to crossbowmen than tercio formations are. Just goes to show how important it is to make game that entirely focuses on pike and shot warfare, there is that much work to be done, it is that big challenge.
    They just have to make arquebusiers/musketeers powerful but very slow to reload so that they still need the protection of the pike block between salvo and salvo, just like their real counterparts.

    The transition to line infantry was only possible because firearms got better and they could reload faster (and well, also bayonets).

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    Daruwind's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Discussion about future TW games, Medieval, Pike and Shot and Empire

    Next "logical" can be Empire 2. Empire with Rome 2 is only title breaking 3M sales and we havenīt really any proper gunpowder mostly oriented game in long time...

    I would honestly prefer Empire 2 or Victoria or something along that line. Basically 1700-1850(1900) period. Global scale like Empire with multiple theatres but this time no special resource theatre, just allowing conquering all coastal regions. My biggest wish is for true deep water naval warfare. Except Empire, all other games like Napoleon,Shogun 2 even Rome 2,Attila are shallow/coastal battles. You are floating around landmass..

    Some kind of mechanics that would determine minor/major powers even according to in-game events. During time we will get different conflicts which all major powers would try to utilize to boost dominace over trade etc..basically having proxy wars like American Civil War, Crymean War, Boshin war...

    So basically even pike and shot style of game. Actually I liked how in early Empire we have some completely useless pike units, which I used multiple time to capture Lisabon very very very early. I love defending fort breaches with those yummy pikes.

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    Default Re: Discussion about future TW games, Medieval, Pike and Shot and Empire

    I played Medieval 3, it is Stunning. I found great Medieval fantasy, best combat mechanics and you gives really impact full customization options and has a amazing multiplayer experience but it could be great if there is availability of clan support and it would be more grateful if i can play it in offline mode too.. Graphics are good and audio too.

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    Default Re: Discussion about future TW games, Medieval, Pike and Shot and Empire

    Will not spend any Money before they fix the Bugs in MTW2 or Empire - beside this Rome 2 was a total fiasco on his Release and now we all know how they just joined on this Feminisim Bandwagon ruining it more.

    If we look on their current last Releases all of those is just also an Bandwagon, some Series appears like Game of Thrones style an we got beside Fantasy 2 "Historical" Games - one is Thrones of Britannia (Vikings and The Last Kingdom BS) and then we got those crypto-fantasy-History of Three Kingdoms.

    I donīt really think that Old Total War Veterans are playing that or will - rather People who are hyped joined it and will leave it on the next Hype - then we will see if CA Suffers or not.

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    Default Re: Discussion about future TW games, Medieval, Pike and Shot and Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by Daruwind View Post
    Next "logical" can be Empire 2.
    Can be? It should be Empire 2 TW, if CA wants to follow their version (M2TW, S2TW,R2TW) concept of a specific game. But did CA do that no they did not, instead they released Warhammer II.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    Will not spend any Money before they fix the Bugs in MTW2 or Empire - beside this Rome 2 was a total fiasco
    Agreed. I stop wasting my money to buy a buggy game after I bought R2TW Collectors Edition for a lot of money.
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    Daruwind's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Discussion about future TW games, Medieval, Pike and Shot and Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    Will not spend any Money before they fix the Bugs in MTW2 or Empire - beside this Rome 2 was a total fiasco on his Release and now we all know how they just joined on this Feminisim Bandwagon ruining it more.

    If we look on their current last Releases all of those is just also an Bandwagon, some Series appears like Game of Thrones style an we got beside Fantasy 2 "Historical" Games - one is Thrones of Britannia (Vikings and The Last Kingdom BS) and then we got those crypto-fantasy-History of Three Kingdoms.

    I donīt really think that Old Total War Veterans are playing that or will - rather People who are hyped joined it and will leave it on the next Hype - then we will see if CA Suffers or not.
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonardo View Post
    Agreed. I stop wasting my money to buy a buggy game after I bought R2TW Collectors Edition for a lot of money.
    1) MTW2, Empire are done. You wonīt get fixes without new content. Convince CA to produce new expansion,than maybe. R2 got a lot fixes lately due to new content.
    2) Feminism bandwagon was thing for 3 days and nothing serious. WH/R2 sales are okey so where is the problem here?
    3) Wh is pretty damn hit. It is probably best decision CA have done in the last few years. Gameīs offer alot and with all the FLCs/DLCs, other TWs may stand in awe.
    4) ToB is actually very good game. Only problem is the price and

    but ultimately suit yourself both of you. If you are not into fantasy, if you are fed up with TWs, move to other games or wait for sales. Nobody gonna force you to play TWs. But it looks like a lot people have fun in Wh

    Quote Originally Posted by Leonardo View Post
    Can be? It should be Empire 2 TW, if CA wants to follow their version (M2TW, S2TW,R2TW) concept of a specific game. But did CA do that no they did not, instead they released Warhammer II.
    Well this would expect rigid system without any change, development. I can name a few points which are simply not sticking into any such schema 1) returning to R2 with new content 2) ToB 3) going fantasy with Wh(s) and semi-fantasy with 3K. These points proves that CA understand that any fixed schema like Rome / Medieval / Shogun or even Empire will be sooner or later boring. Change is life. Stagnation is death. If you don't evolve, you die.

    Even if players are happy with product (still cannot understand EA and their yearly fifa,madden...) some external conditions will change from time to time. Creation of Steam, lootboxes and their potencial banning, evolution of content from large expansions into smaller DLCs.....

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    Huberto's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Discussion about future TW games, Medieval, Pike and Shot and Empire

    Funny how a discussion about future historical settings turned into something about how many copies Warhammer sold, how great fantasy is and how it's actually the future, and if you don't like it you should skip Total War.

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    Daruwind's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Discussion about future TW games, Medieval, Pike and Shot and Empire

    Huberto as is bringing into discussion bugs of Empire or Med2. Not relevant for future game.

    It is not about copies. Nor does the current situation predict future. I was merely stating fact that idea of making TW Wh was great one right one for CA. Of course no TW is perfect one for each player. There is big bunch of fantasy nerds never going to play history title and as well large portion of history fans despiting anything with pointy ears.

    Simply looking at recent historical titles:
    Rome 2 - great sales but for long time it was about bad PR, dreams not coming real and DLC spam and mojority of sales is probably still due to pre-orders.
    Attila - suffered due to Rome 2 poor performance
    ToB - they fixed performance but people still not buy it because it looks weak in comparison with Wh and 3K.
    3K - strong in asia but lot people from history fan club are worried about Romance mode and that it is more fantasy than history.

    Do you see the pattern? While fantasy guys are simply happy and playing, a lot history guys are not. Still is leading back to history period/focus of the game. Can CA make such period like pike and shot interesting for enough people? What I see with recent experimentation from CA (R2 DLCs, ToB, 3K), they are looking on possible new ways how to work with TW series because producing game after game is not possible. But i would not worry about next fantasy games. One of the most important aspect today is strong IP..Warcraft, Tolkien, Witcher....majority of popular fantasy settings is off limit for CA and creating new one is big risk. You are loosing that insta hype as if you put somewhere Arthas or Gandalf. Actually that is reason for Warhammer TW, it is well known.

    Now does it say anything for future pike/shot,med3,empire games? Probably yes. Renessaince, 30-years war are simply not so well known. Napoleon, exploration/colonialism yes. The gameīs main idea must be something simple, well known like Rome, Shogun, Medieval and at the same time except Medieval the others were published recently. And Empire of course which would with gunpowder offer something different from melee oriented games....I would put my bet on Empire 2 / Victoria but I was also saying in the past that we will get more likely Empire 2 than 3K and well here we are....

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    Default Re: Discussion about future TW games, Medieval, Pike and Shot and Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by Daruwind View Post
    Huberto as is bringing into discussion bugs of Empire or Med2. Not relevant for future game.

    It is not about copies. Nor does the current situation predict future.
    It is relevant for future games as long CA still use the Warscape engine.
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    Evan MF's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Discussion about future TW games, Medieval, Pike and Shot and Empire

    Total War: Victoria, with a day one US Civil War DLC, would be the most commercially successful option while still being a new time period. It would sell like hotcakes on both sides of the Atlantic much like Empire did.

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    Default Re: Discussion about future TW games, Medieval, Pike and Shot and Empire

    This is my opinion, however, strongly biased, explaining which historical Total War game would be great to be the next (after Three Kingdoms): A Total War based on 17th century warfare. If we carefully study the "state-of-the-art" and the achievements of the Total War saga, I can see a positive evolution in combat animations, both for melee combat and gunpowder, so why not combining melee combat with gunpowder in the same engine? It would not be difficult to adjust the ranges, efficiency and reload times of 17th century fire weapons. The only drawback would be the complicated infantry and cavalry formations of this period but we do have more than enough information, manuals, treatises about Pike & Shot tactics. This period -17th century- is probably the most fascinating military period of history due to the amount of wars and battles as well as the variety of factions, uniforms, politics, economy, religion, ... 17th century has everything to offer. Probably the most fascinating feature would be the evolution of warfare that would be something different compared to other Total War titles: in land battles from arquebuses, compacted pikemen and arquebuses formations to muskets and line infantry formations, in the naval warfare from galleys and galleons to ships of the line. Also, the big importance of sieges in this period would make a Total War title as fascinating as the period itself is. Total War games has evolved greatly in the way the sieges are being performed (see videos of Three Kingdoms), so I think a Total War focused on siege warfare is possible at this moment. Also the variety of uniforms, units, factions and flags in this period are enough reasons to justify a Total War based on 17th century. This period features open field land battles, sieges land battles, naval battles between fleets, naval battles with fortifications. The map can be extended to America and India as well (Empire has done it before, so it would be easy to do)


    I would also be happy with a Total War focused on 19th century (after Napoleonic Wars) and even with a Total War based on American Civil War (this one is perfectly achievable by Creative Assembly because is fairly easy to do, even smaller companies have done it) but please no more Second World War games, I have more than enough of this war.


    There are many options I can think about for future Total War games of new eras "they haven't tackled yet" or only as an expansion: Ancient Warfare (Greeks, Persia, Egypt, Israel), Renaissance, 17th century, Victorian Era, First World War.

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    LestaT's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Discussion about future TW games, Medieval, Pike and Shot and Empire

    I watched the records mode for 3K gameplay and it bores me. 😁

    If the next game goes back to Europe then I would preferably hope for something like ancient greece era. I mean really ancient like in the age of Troy or something.

    I love history as much as anyone here, but restricting myself to recreate every inch of recorded history in my 40s now in a computer game isnt the same as when I was in my 20s.

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    AnthoniusII's Avatar XXI ARMORED BRIGADE
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    Default Re: Discussion about future TW games, Medieval, Pike and Shot and Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by LestaT View Post
    I watched the records mode for 3K gameplay and it bores me. 

    If the next game goes back to Europe then I would preferably hope for something like ancient greece era. I mean really ancient like in the age of Troy or something.

    I love history as much as anyone here, but restricting myself to recreate every inch of recorded history in my 40s now in a computer game isnt the same as when I was in my 20s.
    That is a good idea. Many superpowers were just before or the same era with the Troy Campaign. I would love to see those armors in games!
    HellenicArmors.

    Beware the use of those armors photos as reference ones NEED the writen permision of their creator.
    There are moments (in history), in which a nation owes,
    if it wants to be considered as a great one, to be able to fight.
    Even without hope of winning. Just because it has to.
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    Daruwind's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Discussion about future TW games, Medieval, Pike and Shot and Empire

    Ancient era is probably one part of human history that we can probably rule out as next tent-pole game. There are two common scenarios - Alexander/Diadochi and Collapse of Bronze Age, I can both of them see as possible Saga game #2. That is max of ancient world we will probably get in near future as Rome 2/Attila are not so old yet.

    Medieval 3 would be great candidate except small foot note that it is yet another hack and slash with melee weapons. Like Rome 2, Attila, 3K...I know Iīm simplifying things a lot here but just look at different unit types and fuction. If you compare it with Ancient era, 3K it is very much the same. For me, Med 3 requires deeper changes to TW formula which is something I can envision more easily for not the next title but that one after the next one.

    So Iīm also really hoping that next tent-pole game will be Empire 2/Victoria. Basically something between 1700-Napoleon or Napoleon-1860 (up to 1900 possibly). These time frames are offering different weaponry and tactics.

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    LestaT's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Discussion about future TW games, Medieval, Pike and Shot and Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    That is a good idea. Many superpowers were just before or the same era with the Troy Campaign. I would love to see those armors in games!
    HellenicArmors.

    Beware the use of those armors photos as reference ones NEED the writen permision of their creator.
    A SAGA game base on TW3K engine with all those heroes from Illiad. That will get my vote. 😁

  17. #17

    Default Re: Discussion about future TW games, Medieval, Pike and Shot and Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by Daruwind View Post
    So Iīm also really hoping that next tent-pole game will be Empire 2/Victoria. Basically something between 1700-Napoleon or Napoleon-1860 (up to 1900 possibly). These time frames are offering different weaponry and tactics.
    I second this. I would be even happy with Empire 2 Total War within the same time frame: 1700-1800, a polished Empire Total War with better sieges, bigger armies, better uniforms, better graphics. A Total War set in later 19th century would also be very interesting, considering colonial wars, evolution in weapons and formations, but I don't know how Creative Assembly would manage it, stand-alone/separated campaigns in Europe/India/South Africa/Sudan? I think it would be possible since Creative Assembly tried something similar with Shogun 2 Fall of the Samurai.

    The problem I see is that Total War historical games are focusing in medieval/ancient periods with melee combat. Ancient era or something related with Medieval Ages is more likely to be a next Total War.

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    Daruwind's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Discussion about future TW games, Medieval, Pike and Shot and Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by Incendio View Post
    The problem I see is that Total War historical games are focusing in medieval/ancient periods with melee combat.
    This is main reason why Iīm hoping for gun-oriented title. With great simplification, except Empire/Napoleon/FotS and WH(s) now, the rest is hack and slash predominantly. And while I definitely wait for good melee oriented title, I would die for grant scale Empire2. After all Napoleon and FotS are just smaller due to their campaign map.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Discussion about future TW games, Medieval, Pike and Shot and Empire

    I also prefer the gun-oriented Total War games over ancient/medieval warfare. It would be great to have a similar game to Empire Total War but with larger armies. Hopefully one day we will be able to simulate battles with real scale armies, I can't even imagine how amazing would be to play big battles such the Fontenoy battle with 50000 soldiers per side and around 100 guns. Other games have achieved large armies with not so bad results, for example, Seven Years War, which is a game based on 18th century warfare made with very modest resources have good depictions of battles such as Leuthen (1757) being truly immersive for me, I can even have nightmares with the austrian army. Scourge of war Waterloo is the other game that allows to have nice big armies. Even in terms of Total War games, though I never tried, NTW 3.0 mod allows to have large armies as well.

  20. #20
    AnthoniusII's Avatar XXI ARMORED BRIGADE
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    Default Re: Discussion about future TW games, Medieval, Pike and Shot and Empire

    The problem with ETW style games is that cities can not be portayed properly to have a descent siege (like Viena's)...
    There are moments (in history), in which a nation owes,
    if it wants to be considered as a great one, to be able to fight.
    Even without hope of winning. Just because it has to.
    Greek War motto.
    XXI Armored Brigade. Proud that served in that unit in 1996!
    "Spartans do not ask how many (enemies are) but where they are"!
    XXI Armored Brigade's motto.
    The Greek Secret (or why they will fight again if it will be necessary or why they do not sell their history).


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