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Thread: About SUN expansion

  1. #1

    Default About SUN expansion

    When a play as Liu or Cao im noticing that Sun expand too fast . On turn 30 maybe on 35 it had conquered Moling, wu , Huiji and Linhai .My question is if this is planned to be like this ?

  2. #2
    Seether's Avatar RoTK Workhorse
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    Default Re: About SUN expansion

    How is that too fast? Sun Ce historically conquered all of that (except Linhai), and more, in only three years. 36 turns would be 3 years game time.
    Member of the Imperial House of Hader - Under the Benevolent Patronage of y2day
    A Wolf Among Sheep: A Rise of Three Kingdoms AAR

  3. #3

    Default Re: About SUN expansion

    I suppose the better thought is: Should the other factions stand a chance if not controlled by the player, and more to the point, should they stand a chance if they ARE controlled by the player. If a faction's only purpose is to be destroyed/subsumed, should it even be included as playable?

    Yes, by history, Sun Ce smacked all those little factions and that's how he became 'The Little Conqueror'. But a strength of things like Total War and Romance is also 'changing history' and 'weird results', especially when the player doesn't have to intervene to cause such.

    South east China's a giant battle-pit, and whoever wins out there is gonna be a major power, especially as it develops and sea trade gets online. Should it always be the Sun without fail?

  4. #4

    Default Re: About SUN expansion

    Quote Originally Posted by Seether View Post
    How is that too fast? Sun Ce historically conquered all of that (except Linhai), and more, in only three years. 36 turns would be 3 years game time.
    Ok but after that meteorical expansion they kept their frontiers for ~8 years . They may had their reasons to not keep the pace on expansion and probably would be hard to acurate emulate that on this engine . Maybe after the 3 factions fall the shanyue get a boost to stop sun ( may cheaper or free units or choke points with cities or "castles" ) .


    On side note : wonderful mod .
    Last edited by betto; November 27, 2018 at 08:33 PM.

  5. #5
    Seether's Avatar RoTK Workhorse
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    Default Re: About SUN expansion

    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodly View Post
    I suppose the better thought is: Should the other factions stand a chance if not controlled by the player, and more to the point, should they stand a chance if they ARE controlled by the player. If a faction's only purpose is to be destroyed/subsumed, should it even be included as playable?

    Yes, by history, Sun Ce smacked all those little factions and that's how he became 'The Little Conqueror'. But a strength of things like Total War and Romance is also 'changing history' and 'weird results', especially when the player doesn't have to intervene to cause such.

    South east China's a giant battle-pit, and whoever wins out there is gonna be a major power, especially as it develops and sea trade gets online. Should it always be the Sun without fail?
    The thing is, up until now one of the main complaints was when the AI Sun Clan or AI Cao Clan didn't dominate their regions or were destroyed. If complaints come from both directions, we're going to go with the most appropriate route.

    Quote Originally Posted by betto View Post
    Ok but after that meteorical expansion they kept their frontiers for ~8 years . They may had their reasons to not keep the pace on expansion and probably would be hard to acurate emulate that on this engine . Maybe after the 3 factions fall the shanyue get a boost to stop sun ( may cheaper or free units or choke points with cities or "castles" ) .
    The reason for their stagnation after Sun Ce's death was because Sun Quan was a turd.

    On side note : wonderful mod .
    Thank you!
    Member of the Imperial House of Hader - Under the Benevolent Patronage of y2day
    A Wolf Among Sheep: A Rise of Three Kingdoms AAR

  6. #6

    Default Re: About SUN expansion

    I think the Sun clan expansion is fine, I have played several games where they take 60 turns to accomplish this, it all depends.

  7. #7

    Default Re: About SUN expansion

    Let's face the true, with generals like Zhou Yu, Lu Meng, Cheng Pu, Huang Gai, Gan Ning you can't loose wars vs Yan Baihu or Liu Yao. The reason why Sun Clan will in 95% win is that they have much more potential and resources.

  8. #8

    Default Re: About SUN expansion

    still about SUN . Why not add a land bridge between Sun and Cao Lands ? (maybe keep it close with a fort possessed by independent general and open it killing him when start the automatic war against cao cao ) .

    the AI is too stupid to cross by itself . instead of go for CAO it attacks anyone on the left .
    Last edited by betto; December 12, 2018 at 02:21 PM.

  9. #9

    Default Re: About SUN expansion

    Can you post a screenshot of your campaign and mod version?

  10. #10

    Default Re: About SUN expansion

    Quote Originally Posted by gasas View Post
    Can you post a screenshot of your campaign and mod version?
    Version 2.3.0.3 campaign hard battle normal Playing with LIU i had conquer jingnam and were the last neighbor of SUN to left. Sorry i cant make a screen shot lost the campaign due to a couple faulty saves and restarted .

  11. #11

    Default Re: About SUN expansion

    v3.0 is coming 20 december with changes on AI, outcome is much better. Also I recommend to play on very hard campaign due to better behavior.
    About land bridge it can mess up things, also reducing importance of naval warfare in this area. On the other note before Cao Cao there is Yuan Shu and Sun Clan will always proritise south.

  12. #12

    Default Re: About SUN expansion

    Quote Originally Posted by gasas View Post
    About land bridge it can mess up things, also reducing importance of naval warfare in this area
    True but with the amount of stacks needed to Ai wage a viable war a land brige (closed with a invisible general until turn ~70) would be necessary . doing the land bridge close to a port would do the trick to keep naval warfare important.

    Quote Originally Posted by gasas View Post
    ... On the other note before Cao Cao there is Yuan Shu and Sun Clan will always proritise south.
    I know that ...but when the scripted war "coalition" against Cao is triggered some turns of peace with SUN to have spare manpowert to attack CAO and/Or better faction stance( by script boost )would be a gladly welcome and a warning that the "coalition" is over to revert back to the bad blood .

    just my humble opinion . Really liking the mod.
    Last edited by betto; December 13, 2018 at 11:56 AM.

  13. #13

    Default Re: About SUN expansion

    In all my campaigns Sun do indeed really do... but do note that the Sun family was very powerful by 200, rivaling even Cao Cao in merit and manpower. However the very early death of Sun Ce stalled them for nearly a full decade. While they were able to recoup and eventually Quan got experienced enough to make valid decisions without relying entirely on Zhou Yu. Don't get me wrong, Yu was one hell of an advisor. However, adapting was never his specialty, and in the end while he solidified Quan's rulership he never really took chances. Not like Cao Cao when he went against Yuan Shao. It was only at Chibi where the Sun Clan took an obvious massive risk - but instead of taking advantage of it they squabbled with Shu over Jiangling.

    Generally speaking, between the three kingdoms, they could have been the one wearing the pants. And with Quan being so young, they probably wouldn't have to worry with him dying early on into the kingship like Cao / Bei. What I am getting at is, historically, the Sun family being powerful makes sense. In most scenarios, and even in the real world scenario, they were a major threat. If they were not eventually caged by Cao and Shu, who knows what could have happened. But that is just my take on it, there are many different opinions on the matter obviously. Good day!

    Edit: I said Jiangling, but I meant the Jing province. I was thinking of Lingling, not Jiangling.
    Last edited by MilesNDavis; December 13, 2018 at 11:27 PM. Reason: Incorrect historical information

  14. #14

    Default Re: About SUN expansion

    Quote Originally Posted by MilesNDavis View Post
    In all my campaigns Sun do indeed really do... but do note that the Sun family was very powerful by 200, rivaling even Cao Cao in merit and manpower. However the very early death of Sun Ce stalled them for nearly a full decade. While they were able to recoup and eventually Quan got experienced enough to make valid decisions without relying entirely on Zhou Yu. Don't get me wrong, Yu was one hell of an advisor. However, adapting was never his specialty, and in the end while he solidified Quan's rulership he never really took chances. Not like Cao Cao when he went against Yuan Shao. It was only at Chibi where the Sun Clan took an obvious massive risk - but instead of taking advantage of it they squabbled with Shu over Jiangling.

    Generally speaking, between the three kingdoms, they could have been the one wearing the pants. And with Quan being so young, they probably wouldn't have to worry with him dying early on into the kingship like Cao / Bei. What I am getting at is, historically, the Sun family being powerful makes sense. In most scenarios, and even in the real world scenario, they were a major threat. If they were not eventually caged by Cao and Shu, who knows what could have happened. But that is just my take on it, there are many different opinions on the matter obviously. Good day!

    Edit: I said Jiangling, but I meant the Jing province. I was thinking of Lingling, not Jiangling.
    I agree completely. Personally big fan of Sun Clan and if generals like Zhou Yu or Lu Meng live longer... But that's just a dream that we can make true in this mod
    Fighting Cao Cao is really hard and makin land bridges will not make it easier also there is no historical reason to do such a thing.

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