Post of the Fortnight - Competition Commentary Thread

[Septentrionalis]

Would it be too cumbersome to have hunters enlisted to hunt for good posts? If a set number of people were tasked with that it might help create the necessary content. Those people would pledge to pick posts objectively. Members of academy picks the posts and we the people vote for them.

Sorry for the delay in answering you, PoVG. I needed to think about it and we had some internal discussion concerning your suggestion. I find what you suggest to be the optimal situation but, in reality, if people are not nominating posts right now voluntarily, it would be hard to come up with volunteers that are required to do so. And if they were required to do it, they would need to be staff by definition. But that is not a problem in itself; it is just that anyone stepping up cannot be made staff the very instance they volunteer for something.

So perhaps an amalgam of my suggestion and yours would be in order. First do a campaign of reminder posts concerning PotF once people come back to the forum after their summer activities. Invite people to nominate good posts and, for those that are interested, let them assume a more active role in in the nomination process. If they do it for a while and show active and positive disposition, open up talk of staff membership and doing it regularly. It's been a bit different until now. I was asked to join the gaming staff solely because of posting in good faith for a longish time (or something like that), not specifically because of my activity in the competition realm. It doesn't have to be that way exclusively.

Just as a disclaimer, I am a new staff member and cannot promise anything to anyone. But judging by the discussions I have had with the senior members, they do keep an eye out for new potential staff members.

[PointOfViewGun]

I don't think my suggestion would require a full staff position though the name Curators for them would be perfect. Maybe have 5 curators with each picking one post. Members can still nominate posts. Curators can pick them but they don't have to, hence, some bad ones are filtered. Curators can object to picks of other curators. If at least two curators object to a pick the post can not be used. These 5 curators could serve for 2 months, maybe? With a new PotF every two weeks. So, each curator get to choose 4 posts in total. In the end, they'd get a curator badge. The real question is how hard is it to find 5 people every two months? Maybe each curator could serve consecutively two times with one term wait period to apply again.

Or maybe create a small badge with levels for nominating posts as an incentive for all? There are often well laid out posts but we merely skim them or just pass by without thinking that they'd be good for PotF. Maybe people just need a little push.

Of course, we're brainstorming.

[Lord Thesaurian]

Every user viewing the D&D is invited and encouraged to be a post hunter. Activity is low during the summer, but anyone can still nominate. As Sept said, we normally post reminders in the community thread, and will likely resume when activity picks up.

[Flinn]

Every user viewing the D&D is invited and encouraged to be a post hunter. Activity is low during the summer, but anyone can still nominate. As Sept said, we normally post reminders in the community thread, and will likely resume when activity picks up.

Indeed, the very purpose of this Award, as originally intended by the Curia when it was created, it was not only to reward the best posts (and posters), but also to stimulate people to participate, read other people's posts and then nominate the best ones. Dwindling activity doesn't help of course, but what we really need here is more participation from the active community of debaters.

However, I've posted a general reminder in the D&D and the Q&S, hopefully that will help

[Septentrionalis]

However, I've posted a general reminder in the D&D and the Q&S, hopefully that will help

Thank you! I was going to concentrate tonight on some PR work for the competition once I get home from work, but I appreciate your ninja support!

I can see the Q&S one, but do you mean by D&D? There is no general section visible to me and I cannot see in the subforums.

[Flinn]

I can see the Q&S one, but do you mean by D&D? There is no general section visible to me and I cannot see in the subforums.

I meant The Mudpit

[Muizer]

I'm afraid this competition has turned out as expected, with quite often posts being nominated that are monologue or essay style. Personally I don't think such a style should be rewarded at all, because generally "wall of text" posts aren't conducive to an exchange of ideas at all.

[Septentrionalis]

I'm afraid this competition has turned out as expected, with quite often posts being nominated that are monologue or essay style. Personally I don't think such a style should be rewarded at all, because generally "wall of text" posts aren't conducive to an exchange of ideas at all.

That is great feedback. We could have a little discussion here about what we expect the nominations to be. Some people, and that includes me, appreciate others taking time and going through the trouble of explaining something interesting at length. That said, I do not like to nominate posts by their length alone.

I am new to this stuff and I would actually like to have some guidance on what we expect from nominations beyond the somewhat vague guidelines. As far as I see it, there is no problem in nominating posts that make their point in an effective and concise manner, and no problem in people voting for them.

Thank you, Muizer. I think this is a good conversation to have unless it has already been had before my time and settled somehow.

[Septentrionalis]

On a related matter, right now I am on a so-far unsanctioned mission to include only four or five posts into every round and rather have more rounds with fewer posts than fewer rounds with a greater number of very long and complex posts. The rationale is that if forum members are presented with too much reading to do in one go, they might decide to vote "later". "Later" tends to equal "never".

I would actually like to end round 48 (special summer edition) pretty soon and have another summer round, if nominations are coming in. I have not discussed that with senior members as of now, though.

[Flinn]

I'm afraid this competition has turned out as expected, with quite often posts being nominated that are monologue or essay style. Personally I don't think such a style should be rewarded at all, because generally "wall of text" posts aren't conducive to an exchange of ideas at all.

Thanks for the feed mate, much appreciated.

[Cookiegod]

I'm afraid this competition has turned out as expected, with quite often posts being nominated that are monologue or essay style. Personally I don't think such a style should be rewarded at all, because generally "wall of text" posts aren't conducive to an exchange of ideas at all.

Being succinct and precise is not necessarily the same as being short. Everyone can do short gotcha moments or observations. Dick Cheney's posts always spark debates, so I can't agree with your observation. I can agree with the sentiment that posts should try to be as short as possible though. But it purely depends on content.

[Muizer]

Being succinct and precise is not necessarily the same as being short. Everyone can do short gotcha moments or observations. Dick Cheney's posts always spark debates, so I can't agree with your observation. I can agree with the sentiment that posts should try to be as short as possible though. But it purely depends on content.

Like this post that's now been nominated?

While it's an interesting piece, it can't possibly be claimed it's sparked a lively conversation. In fact it took about 2 weeks to get a first reaction and now that there's 3, the OP hasn't even replied. It would be a good contender for 'essay of the month' perhaps, but please let's not send the message that this is what a contribution to a discussion should ideally look like.

[Septentrionalis]

Muizer, can you think of some ways to ameliorate things? Such as make it explicit and known that a post does not have to be particularly long to be nominated? I don't think we should at least prevent people from nominating a post because it is long.

This conversation on the matter is clearly a move in the right direction but not necessarily a sufficient one. I wish we could have so much activity that we could have categories. Not impossible, given that I just made a round and now need to make another one. There are a couple of unused nominations in addition to the ones you see in the thread. And I haven't even tapped into the ones from summer that I personally liked.

I have some ideas that I need to okay with Flinn before I solo this competition beyond recognition.

[Cookiegod]

Like this post that's now been nominated?

While it's an interesting piece, it can't possibly be claimed it's sparked a lively conversation. In fact it took about 2 weeks to get a first reaction and now that there's 3, the OP hasn't even replied. It would be a good contender for 'essay of the month' perhaps, but please let's not send the message that this is what a contribution to a discussion should ideally look like.

I didn't have the time to reply to the thread because I was off for a while. The VV is generally less used than the much more dramatic mudpit. I have a hard time buying into the proposition that longer posts mean people are less inclined to answer. Even in the mudpit I'd much more expect people to simply ignore the arguments than not posting.

Anyone can clobber out a one liner zinger hot take. But I'm much, much, much less interested in those than in a nuanced opinion. As you can see in my reply to the post linked by you, my post is far longer. Did I want to write a long post? Nope. Could I have been more shorter/succinct? I don't see how.

[Septentrionalis]

I have a hard time buying into the proposition that longer posts mean people are less inclined to answer.

Very often long and well thought-out posts make many complex points and require more from the person answering them, unless the answer deals with only one or two of the points made. That is quite natural. The more complicated a discourse gets, the fewer people are able or willing to participate in it meaningfully. Be it knowledge, willingness to commit time, etc. In my view, that does not take away anything from the value of those posts. To illustrate, if more people are willing to read a short comic strip in a newspaper than Proust's À la recherche du temps perdu, that alone is no testimony of the superiority of the former one.

I am actually quite worried about the emerging culture of making it a virtue not to read longer texts. People proudly dismissing other people's efforts at explaining things by saying things like "tldr" (too long, didn't read) make me wonder if those individuals know anything. Pretty much none of the valuable things that I have learned in my life have come from one liners. I find it especially outrageous that some people can spend two hours reading meaningless one liners and idle social media posts in a day but refuse to spend a few minutes reading a text with a few paragraphs. When I went to university aeons ago, we were actually required to read entire books on a single subject ! Well, that is perhaps a subject for a new thread in the academy rather than something to be discussed in this commentary thread, and I do not mean this as a counterpoint to Muizer's welcome observation that concise and effective posting should be rewarded.

[Cookiegod]

I mean I too agree that good stuff is concise. But that means nothing in terms of raw length.

[Flinn]

I am actually quite worried about the emerging culture of making it a virtue not to read longer texts. People proudly dismissing other people's efforts at explaining things by saying things like "tldr" (too long, didn't read) make me wonder if those individuals know anything. Pretty much none of the valuable things that I have learned in my life have come from one liners. I find it especially outrageous that some people can spend two hours reading meaningless one liners and idle social media posts in a day but refuse to spend a few minutes reading a text with a few paragraphs. When I went to university aeons ago, we were actually required to read entire books on a single subject ! Well, that is perhaps a subject for a new thread in the academy rather than something to be discussed in this commentary thread, and I do not mean this as a counterpoint to Muizer's welcome observation that concise and effective posting should be rewarded.

Sadly, that's humanity.. it's not even a modern problem.. call me whatever you like for saying this, but most of the people do not want to read at all, the tldr it's just an excuse.. read, or learn or trying to understand it's an effort that often brings you to more efforts.. and humanity, in general, is lazy, especially when your survival isn't at risk.

[Cope]

Very often long and well thought-out posts make many complex points and require more from the person answering them, unless the answer deals with only one or two of the points made. That is quite natural. The more complicated a discourse gets, the fewer people are able or willing to participate in it meaningfully. Be it knowledge, willingness to commit time, etc. In my view, that does not take away anything from the value of those posts. To illustrate, if more people are willing to read a short comic strip in a newspaper than Proust's À la recherche du temps perdu, that alone is no testimony of the superiority of the former one.

I am actually quite worried about the emerging culture of making it a virtue not to read longer texts. People proudly dismissing other people's efforts at explaining things by saying things like "tldr" (too long, didn't read) make me wonder if those individuals know anything. Pretty much none of the valuable things that I have learned in my life have come from one liners. I find it especially outrageous that some people can spend two hours reading meaningless one liners and idle social media posts in a day but refuse to spend a few minutes reading a text with a few paragraphs. When I went to university aeons ago, we were actually required to read entire books on a single subject ! Well, that is perhaps a subject for a new thread in the academy rather than something to be discussed in this commentary thread, and I do not mean this as a counterpoint to Muizer's welcome observation that concise and effective posting should be rewarded.

TL;DR.

[Muizer]

A couple of points. Firstly, I do not think it is correct to bring one-liners into the conversation. I never mentioned them and offering them up as less palatable than walls of text is not proving anything, because it's a false dichotomy. Secondly, let's not forget this is a forum and as such it's built to allow people to converse, to exchange ideas. Certainly, a short attention span is regrettable, but to declare one's position in one long post and then walk away is no less so. And yet, that is the kind of pedantic posting behaviour that this award seems to stimulate. On reflection, I can accept an elaborate post if it's an OP. I would even encourage it. OP of the month would probably be a much better way to stimulate activity than what we have now. However, only if the OP actually commits to the subsequent discussion and signals they do so in the OP by asking for input on some thesis or just an open question.

[antaeus]

I think the ability to be succinct in one's argument is admirable.

Attempts to browbeat interlocutors into abandoning debates by expressing an inability to self-edit shouldn't be rewarded.

But I have a short attention span, so maybe I'm biased.