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Thread: Lore friendly army recruitment

  1. #1

    Default Lore friendly army recruitment

    Hello fellas!

    I recently had the idea to create a mod that would restrict unit/hero/lord recruitment (and as a result army composition for both the player and the AI) in a way more fitting to the lore without caring for balance (at least for now). What do I mean by that? There are already a few cases in the vanilla game, take the savage orcs for example. These can (locally) be recruited everywhere by the Bloody Handz only, whereas the other Greenskins factions have to control some specific region in the Badlands to have access to them. I want to extend this concept to all Mortal Empires factions.

    Here is the plan - though it is probably not perfect yet, suggestions are very much welcome:

    Empire:
    - Steam Tank - Can only be recruited in an Engineer's Workshop in Altdorf.

    Greenskins:
    - Night Goblin Shaman - If not playing as Crooked Moon, can only be recruited in Mountain settlements.
    - Night Goblins, Night Goblin Archers - If not playing as Crooked Moon, requires a Fightin' Pit or Black Orc Barracks in a Mountain settlement to be recruitable.
    - Night Goblins (Fanatics), Night Goblin Archers (Fanatics) - If not playing as Crooked Moon, requires Black Orc Barracks in a Mountain settlement to be recruitable.
    - Night Goblin Squig Hoppers - If not playing as Crooked Moon, requires a Squig Nest or Squig Cages in a Mountain settlement to be recruitable.
    - Arachnarok Spider - If not playing as Black Spider Tribe, Arachnos or Black Venom, requires Sacred Spider Groundz in a Jungle settlement to be recruitable.
    - Forest Goblin Spider Riders, Forest Goblin Spider Rider Archers - If not playing as Black Spider Tribe, Arachnos or Black Venom, requires Gloomy Hollowz or Sacred Spider Groundz in a Jungle settlement to be recruitable.

    High Elves:
    - Handmaiden of the Everqueen - If not playing as Avelorn, can only be recruited in a settlement of Avelorn.
    - Sisters of Avelorn - If not playing as Avelorn, requires Handmaidens in a settlement of Avelorn to be recruitable.
    - Loremaster of Hoeth - If not playing as Order of Loremasters, can only be recruited in a settlement of Saphery.
    - Swordmasters of Hoeth - If not playing as Order of Loremasters, requires a Grand Repository, a Tower of Mages, the Library of Hoeth or the White Tower of Hoeth in a settlement of Saphery to be recruitable.
    - Phoenix Guard - If not playing as Lothern, requires a Sanctuary of Asuryan in Lothern to be recruitable.
    - Lothern Sea Guard - If not playing as Lothern, requires a Rally Field or a War Hall in a settlement of Eatain to be recruitable.
    - Lothern Sea Guard (Shields) - If not playing as Lothern, requires a War Hall in a settlement of Eatain to be recruitable.
    - White Lions of Chrace - If not playing as Chrace, requires a Grove in a settlement of Chrace to be recruitable.
    - Shadow Warriors - If not playing as Nagarythe, requires a War Hall in a settlement of Nagarythe to be recruitable.
    - Ellyrian Reaver Archers, Ellyrian Reavers - If not playing as Ellyrion, requires Grazing Meadows or a Farrier in a settlement of Ellyrion to be recruitable.
    - Dragon Princes - If not playing as Caledor, requires a Dragon Keep in a settlement of Caledor to be recruitable.
    - Ithilmar Chariot - If not playing as Tiranoc, requires Aan Ithilmar Smith, the Hall of Charioteers or the Palace of Tiranoc in a settlement of Tiranoc to be recruitable.
    - Tiranoc Chariot - If not playing as Tiranoc, requires an Elven Forge, an Ithilmar Smith, the Hall of Charioteers or the Palace of Tiranoc in a settlement of Tiranoc to be recruitable.

    Dark Elves:
    - Black Guard of Naggarond - If not playing as Naggarond, requires a Dread Manse, a Palace of Dread Knights or the Towers of the Black Guard in Naggarond to be recruitable.
    - Har Ganeth Executioners - If not playing as Har Ganeth, requires a Temple of Khaine in Har Ganeth to be recruitable.
    - Kharibdyss - Can only be recruited in a Beastmaster's Stables or a Dragon Hatchery in coastal settlements, or in Monster Holds or a Dragon Tower in Black Arks.

    Vampire Coast:
    - Rotting Prometheans - Can only be recruited in a Mangrove of Monsters or a Cape of Conjuring in coastal settlements, or in a Cargo Hold or a Bulk Cargo Hold in ships.
    - Rotting Leviathan - Can only be recruited in a Cape of Conjuring in coastal settlements, or in a Bulk Cargo Hold in ships.
    - Rotting Prometheans Gunnery Mob - Can only be recruited in a Dead Pirates' Workshop in coastal settlements, or in Shuttered Gunports in ships.

    Now, I don't really know with which DB tables I should start to work on, so if you have at least some idea please let me know

    Cheers
    TCW
    Last edited by Dingkuhn; November 25, 2018 at 09:16 AM.

  2. #2
    Steph's Avatar Maréchal de France
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    Default Re: Lore friendly army recruitment

    See SWO-RD, I'm already doing some of these, or in slightly different ways.

    Some of your ideas are not so simple to implement as described.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Lore friendly army recruitment

    I suppose you mean the unlocking of the RoRs in particular, right? The regular units stuff can be done, I assume, by creating variants of the buildings producing them and then restricting the latters to specific regions like landmarks.

    I really like this mod of yours. The unit models look gorgeous, and both the existence of unit variants and the capping of elites sound like great ideas to maintain some kind of balance, while keeping it close to the lore (plus it adds diversity, which I thing is never a bad thing imo). Keep up the good work, looking forward to try it out!

  4. #4
    Daruwind's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Lore friendly army recruitment

    I would consider another line of thoughts. We are speaking about game, with complex building/regional system. With not perfect AI. One of usual problem is, AI is unable to understand that it needs certains resources, buildings, regions to unlock another powerfull unit. Player can plan across multiple rounds, multiple steps which AI is unable to model due to short end turns. You should make sure your system will not compromise AI ability to create armies with enough unit diversity. It would hamper both AI fighting ability and player´s fun opposing the very same units over and over. The problem is not so great due to more building slots in faction/province capitols still... For example one of best change for Rome2/Attila style is to tie unit production,unlock just with Tier of main building and use other buildings to boost particular production values, increase unit limit or grant various bonuses.

    You probably ask why I´m writing such abstract approach. Because there is a lot different "lore" options. But very often I find them just restrictive. Keep balance, add restrictions and bonuses to compensate. For example all - Loremaster of Hoeth - If not playing as Order of Loremasters, can only be recruited in a settlement of Saphery. - > Order the same, but allow other to recruit only limited ammount of those without settlement in Sapphery. Like 2-3 ..5 top? AND after getting Sapphery, remove the limit plus maybe very small bonus like +1 rank. This way they are both very limited AND/BUT available.
    Last edited by Daruwind; November 25, 2018 at 04:10 AM.
    DMR: (R2) (Attila) (ToB) (Wh1/2) (3K) (Troy)

  5. #5
    Steph's Avatar Maréchal de France
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    Default Re: Lore friendly army recruitment

    To explain more, I will take the exemple of the High Elves, as I know them more.

    Let's talk first about Gameplay

    Here is what you proposed, and I removed the RoR.

    Let's have a look at Cothique or Yvresse. With your system, they cannot recruit Swordmasters, White Lions, Phoenix Guard, Ellyrian Reavers, Chariots, Sea Guards, or Dragon Princes. So... What can they recruit?
    Spearmen. Archers. Silver Helms. More or less 3 units.... This means that you seriously cripple this faction.

    Compare that with the Empire: they can recruit Greatsword, Halberdier, Heavy and Light Cavalry anywhere.

    So your system would greatly unbalance some factions, and as Daruwind said the AI may not be able to realize that to get a diverse HE army as Yvresse, it basically need to controle the whole of Ulthuan.


    Some choices are also debatable from a lore/gameplay perspective
    - Lothern Sea Guard - If not playing as Lothern, requires a Rally Field or a War Hall in a settlement of Eatain to be recruitable.

    1) Why not make it require the port? They are Sea guard.
    2) Since they are from Lothern it's logical they require a settlement of Eatain (actually, they'd require Lothern). But why do you allow recruitem them if you play as Tyrion, but control for exemple only Tiranoc because everything else was capture?

    Same would apply for other things. You can recruit Loremasters of Hoeth if you control the Tower of Hoeth. Why allow it if you are Saphery and control only a province you capture in Bretonnia, but Saphery territory in Ulthuan are occupied by Lothern?

    I'm not also not a big fan of limiting the RoR to a region. Because to me RoR are a kind of famous regiment, originally from some place, and then going to a famous general once he reached some level. They are therefore not directly linked to a region. That's what's make RoR unique.

    Now, let's talk about the technical aspect:

    - Phoenix Guard - If not playing as Lothern, requires a Sanctuary of Asuryan in Lothern to be recruitable.

    How can you do this?
    - You need it to be recruitable by Lothern. But also all the other HE factions, or they cannot recruit it when they get the Sanctuary
    - The units are given by a building. So to make it recruitable by Lothern, you need a version of the temple for Lothern. But this temple should not be buildable by the other factions.
    This means you'd have to make many different versions of the buildings, with complex requirement to make it works.

    In that case, it would be much easier to just allow the Sanctuary to give Phoenix Guards. Even as Lothern, you'd get the Guards only if you have this landmark.

    - Lothern Sea Guard - If not playing as Lothern, requires a Rally Field or a War Hall in a settlement of Eatain to be recruitable.

    Same: since they units are given by building, it means you need one type of Rally Field that give this unit. And another type than doesn't give it. Then make it so one version can be build in any region by Lorthern. Then another barracks that can be build by anyone, only in Lothernn. And a third one by anyone, outside of Lothern. So at least 3 different barracks with complex settings to make it work.
    And this has some nasty side effect. The first elven techs requires a level 2 barracks. It means that Lothern could research this tech... but no one else. Or anyone can, but not Lothern...

    As you see, this can quickly lead to something quite complex, so hard to put in place, hard for the AI to grasp.

    That's why I used my approach in SWO-RD
    - I don't want to cripple a faction too much. So Cothique and Yvresse CAN recruit Swordmasters, Halberdiers, Reavers, Dragon Princes, Axemen... But they are weaker (slighlty less armor/weapon, size is 100 men instead of 120...). From a lore perspective, you can consider as a small company of Swordmasters, roaming the lands to fight cause to fight for, but they are less numerous, have less supply or training than the "real" unit.
    - I want to give extra importance to real elite units: so Swordmasters of Hoeth are better, but can be recruited ONLY if you have the White Tower in Saphery. If you don't have it... You can still recruit "rogue swordmasters in Exile".
    - I also wanted to give more flavour to local units, hence the heraldic Spearmen, Archers, Silver Helms, which can be recruited only in specific regions.
    - And to avoid again crippling the HE too much, you can recruit Spearmen anywhere, even outside of Ulthuan, but as generic weaker unit.

    This approachy is less complex to implement. It still requires copies of some building, but a bit less.

    And it's more friendly to the AI, since the AI can still get every type of troops (anti large, anti infantry, heavy and light cavalry, etc).

  6. #6

    Default Re: Lore friendly army recruitment

    I understand that the AI of this game is quite limited, and that it won't actively look for regions that would allow it to expand its choice of recruitment. I played quite a number of campaigns and read many complains about the Warhammer I-II AI over the past years, I think I get a feeling now of how the AI might work (in an observer-limited way of course, I don't pretend to understand the algorithms behind it), and yeah, as you guys said, it is quite limited. For example, it has bad army compositions, based mostly on what's available in the recruitment pool, which in turns depends on buildings, that afak are built without regard to units requirement (I take that this is why we don't see double requirement anymore like that of The Empire with the forge building chain). So, I'm aware that such a mod would break the AI, and that as a consequence minor HE factions would quickly get wiped out by less restricted factions because of their poor unit diversity and non-access to important elites. It wouldn't be as fun to play as Vanilla, for sure.

    I should have make it clear from the beginning: this mod is more meant to be (1) an exercise with modding, see if I can make it work, at least for the player, (2) an experiment with the AI and as a player, to "see what happens", and then grow some ideas based on the results, and (3) a "closer to the lore" experience, even if it is not as fun as vanilla from a gameplay perspective, but for RP game sessions purpose. That being said, I'm glad to read some interesting suggestions you guys made. I particularly like the idea of elites capping for "themed" factions far from home (for example Swordmasters for the Order of the Loremasters), that get this capping removed once they get their homeland back under their control. It gives an incentive for the player to go on a quest far from their starting position (kind of like the race for Karak Eight Peaks). I also wasn't seeing RoRs in the way you mentioned above, but I like it and am now considering leaving them as they are in vanilla (although I'd like CA to one day make these RoRs recruitable for the player after completing some sort of quests, like in the Vampirates case).

    Back to the more technical side, even if already I suspected that multiple variants of the same building would be required to implement unit recruitment restriction, I had little idea of how difficult it might be to mod in these variants in, nor did I consider the troubles that I would have gotten with the tech trees. I'd like to see all of it by myself though - it might be useful to know for later projects -, so I would be happy if you guys can point me to the right DB tables, at least some of them

    @Steph: Is your mod already playable in campaign? I read it is still in beta, but I'd be happy to test it.


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    Last edited by Dingkuhn; November 25, 2018 at 07:14 AM.

  7. #7
    Steph's Avatar Maréchal de France
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    Default Re: Lore friendly army recruitment

    I'm not sure you can "remove" the cap when you get some building though.
    Unless you make it ridiculously high.

    For exemple, have a limit of 5 Swordmasters for faction which do not own Tower of Hoeth, and then have Tower of Hoeth five a +100 capacity can work. But not an unlimited capacity.

    You can probably also add a faction effects, like Order of Loremaster have a +50 capacity to Swordmasters (so if they also own Tower of Hoeth, capacity becomes 100 + 50 + 5 = 155).

    I think the important thing is to start small, and then expand later.


    Ex:

    "- Loremaster of Hoeth - If not playing as Order of Loremasters, can only be recruited in a settlement of Saphery."

    Start by making the Loremasters linked to a settlement in Saphery, don't try to make it also available to Order of Loremasters. Check it works. And then add the "free for Order of Loremasters" later.

    Maybe you'll have to make copies of the units or of some buildings. Maybe you'll need a faction effect.


    You have several possible approaches. With pro and con for each. So be careful, try a little thing, and then expand from it. Trying to do all at once is a bad idea.

    And if you have questions for the technical part, don't hesitate to ask. Modding staff is here to help if they can

  8. #8

    Default Re: Lore friendly army recruitment

    Quote Originally Posted by Steph View Post
    I'm not sure you can "remove" the cap when you get some building though.
    Unless you make it ridiculously high.

    For exemple, have a limit of 5 Swordmasters for faction which do not own Tower of Hoeth, and then have Tower of Hoeth five a +100 capacity can work. But not an unlimited capacity.

    You can probably also add a faction effects, like Order of Loremaster have a +50 capacity to Swordmasters (so if they also own Tower of Hoeth, capacity becomes 100 + 50 + 5 = 155).
    Thanks for the tip. I'm also fine with just fine with doubling or trippling the cap upon conquest of the Tower, so that it remain an exceptional unit, even when controlling their homeland.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steph View Post
    I think the important thing is to start small, and then expand later.


    Ex:

    "- Loremaster of Hoeth - If not playing as Order of Loremasters, can only be recruited in a settlement of Saphery."

    Start by making the Loremasters linked to a settlement in Saphery, don't try to make it also available to Order of Loremasters. Check it works. And then add the "free for Order of Loremasters" later.

    Maybe you'll have to make copies of the units or of some buildings. Maybe you'll need a faction effect.


    You have several possible approaches. With pro and con for each. So be careful, try a little thing, and then expand from it. Trying to do all at once is a bad idea.
    That's a very good idea. I won't be able to make any progress and learn anything if I am unable to retrace the errors to their sources in the modified DB, I think this is especially true with the Warhammer games which look far more difficult to mod than the preceding Total War's...

    I'm also thinking of reducing the scope of the project, at least for now, and also because these are quite busy days irl.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steph View Post
    And if you have questions for the technical part, don't hesitate to ask. Modding staff is here to help if they can
    Awesome! Thanks man

  9. #9
    Daruwind's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Lore friendly army recruitment

    Maybe another suggestion. What about joining / helping with another already running project? You can influence the direction, probably not in 100% but still making whole overhaul by yourself. It could be quite a lot of work..
    DMR: (R2) (Attila) (ToB) (Wh1/2) (3K) (Troy)

  10. #10
    Steph's Avatar Maréchal de France
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    Default Re: Lore friendly army recruitment

    Well from my point of view, I plan to do local recruitment for every factions with time, rework the startpos map to allow this (and add slots at the same time). Plenty to do for a small team, but since I'm alone it takes time.
    I wouldn't mind teaming, for example with someone who wants to rework the map to add slots and improve the buildings / economy.... Just saying...

  11. #11

    Default Re: Lore friendly army recruitment

    I never worked with startpos before but I would have been confronted with it at a time when another, so I am willing to learn how to mod it alongside other things. Plus I like the idea behind your mod.

    I would be happy to team up, but before we do I feel obligated to warn you that like many people in this forum I have a very constraining non-virtual life - so modding output will most likely be irregular and possibly slow (especially at the beginning). If this bit poses no problem to you I'm in for a try

  12. #12
    Daruwind's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Lore friendly army recruitment

    Startpos is with scripting one of the hardest area to mod. You might need to learn multiple programs to do proper changes like PFM, AK, scripting, hex editing tools, ESFviaXML unpacking of startpos....and basically examining starpos of different games.. Rome2/Attila/ToB/Wh1+2...such approach will allow you to see subtle difference and catch details which you might miss by examining just one game. Thus being said, there are still many areas that could be explored properly
    If you have spare time, feel free to give it a try even if I would start with more simple things/mods. And don´t worry, Steph´s hints were probably aimed at me due to my field of expertise poking

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...es-Warhammer-1
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...building-slots

    There is still a lot things to be found even after 5 years from Rome 2 release date
    Last edited by Daruwind; December 05, 2018 at 03:15 AM.
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  13. #13
    Steph's Avatar Maréchal de France
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    Default Re: Lore friendly army recruitment

    This tutorial covers mos tof what I'd like to do

    https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfil.../?id=885730550

    Adding landmarks for regional recruitment is tedious, but not that difficult.

    Adding slots seems not to be to difficult either(providing you stick to 4 slots for minor cities, that's where Daruwind experience could be very useful...)

    It's a little different in warhammer 2, the building_chain_slot_unlock is bit exactly the same.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Lore friendly army recruitment

    Quote Originally Posted by Daruwind View Post
    Startpos is with scripting one of the hardest area to mod. You might need to learn multiple programs to do proper changes like PFM, AK, scripting, hex editing tools, ESFviaXML unpacking of startpos....and basically examining starpos of different games.. Rome2/Attila/ToB/Wh1+2...such approach will allow you to see subtle difference and catch details which you might miss by examining just one game. Thus being said, there are still many areas that could be explored properly
    If you have spare time, feel free to give it a try even if I would start with more simple things/mods. And don´t worry, Steph´s hints were probably aimed at me due to my field of expertise poking

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...es-Warhammer-1
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...building-slots

    There is still a lot things to be found even after 5 years from Rome 2 release date
    Damn, from those programs I only ever used PFM and a hex editor, and the latter only for editing rigid model files. Sounds quite challenging ^^'

    I will see what I can do with the time I have available, maybe (as you said) start with more simple things

    Quote Originally Posted by Steph View Post
    This tutorial covers mos tof what I'd like to do

    https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfil.../?id=885730550

    Adding landmarks for regional recruitment is tedious, but not that difficult.

    Adding slots seems not to be to difficult either(providing you stick to 4 slots for minor cities, that's where Daruwind experience could be very useful...)

    It's a little different in warhammer 2, the building_chain_slot_unlock is bit exactly the same.
    I will look this up too. Thanks to both for the useful advices and links

  15. #15
    Daruwind's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Lore friendly army recruitment

    PFM is fine for what Steph is looking for.. for example, actually 50% of starpost mods can be done just with that, 50% with AK or combination with PFM and then there is like 1% of mods, that needs hell of everything and probably even holy water O.o
    DMR: (R2) (Attila) (ToB) (Wh1/2) (3K) (Troy)

  16. #16
    Steph's Avatar Maréchal de France
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    Default Re: Lore friendly army recruitment

    I'm not living very far from Lourdes, and my wife goes there every year to assist disabled and suck people. I can provide some holy water. Not sure how to attached it a post though
    Last edited by Steph; December 07, 2018 at 01:32 AM.

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