[2018-XXXIII] [Citizen Referral] Halie Satanus

[General Brewster]

I would like to make the following referral.

Opposed.


Because there’s something very wrong with you taking this from proposals still under review. This comes across as nothing more than serving your desperate need to have your name on anything that gathers support.

This is a derogatory statement regarding me personally. I make proposals for the good of the community. I certainly would not do it for any self-servicing purposes. THis is a direct violation of the ToS

Outside of the Administrative Forums, personal references, whether implicit or explicit, are off-topic. Personal references of a negative or derogatory nature and statements that disrupt the discussion, regardless of intent, will be singled out in particular.

Moreover, this also violated his own "Code of Conduct." publicly makes false statements about another member or their intentions.
I should also add that I have made many proposals. Most do not even go to vote. If my aim was to gain support, then I would be better served to wait for someone else to make proposals and jump on the bandwagon.

It’s always been the Curial way, proposal - counter proposal. Out and out plagiarism is a new one though. I’ve never been a fan of proposal Tourette’s, especially when so many are ill thought out and argued despite overwhelming opposition.

This flat out stating a lie.

Plagiarism: the practice of taking someone else's work or ideas and passing them off as one's own.

I gave both credits and reference the proposal that the "Code of Conduct" came from. I also noted my personal changes to stated Code. I am clearly not plagiarizing, yet, I am being publicly accused of it. Either halie does not know what plagiarism actually is, or he is purposely and maliciously stating lies about me.

In his own Code of Conduct, he believes this action is wrong; demonstrably lies.

I honestly do not know what more to say on the matter. I referred him to harassment earlier. I am not certain of the results. He seems to think he can continuously make these insulting remarks about me. I do not know this person at all. I do not see how he can make such accusation with such veracity. In the past, I have tried to make nice with him but seems to only encourage him to continue this behavior. The Triumvirate is my only recourse.

[General Brewster]

Defense requested.

[General Brewster]

Defense received.

Given the proposed code of conduct has not meant any dispute in other threads, I thought I bringing it as a proposal by itself. The "Code of Conduct" was first proposed by Iskar in this post.

We could argue the semantics of his double use of 'I' in that sentence.. I see it as admission he feels he is proposing this with a slight nod to one of the original authors (*note).

From the original Ostraka proposal.

It should be noted, furthermore, that although I act as the formal proposer of this it is in fact the product of a fruitful discussion between Aikanár, Halie, Flinn and me.

When I challenged Pike about his use of the conditions he changed his post to.

(please note that Halie Satanus claims to have co-written the "Code of Conduct." I was unaware of this. My apologies for not giving him credit).

While it was largely Iskar and myself who came up with the proposal, in particular the section Pike 'utilised' he still hasn't credited Aik or Flinn. (*note). I have ignored the use of 'claims' to have....

When challenged by Iskar....

*note

I do not put any stock into who is proposing a proposal, only the proposal itself.

An admission of a disregard for the original authors, even underlined for emphasis..

It's simple common decency to ask. If he had I imagine both myself and Iskar would have suggested waiting to see how the prefect act goes in a vote, since the body of the conditions is included in that and it can be amended later on.

As for the rest. He claims it's not plagiarism, I claim it is. I would not have expected to need to define the plagiarism clause to such an extent it could not be exploited in the curia. Clearly that was a lack of foresight on mine and Iskar's part.

When you're done (either way) please post this in public.

The usual suggested advice for scrotum cleanliness.

Be good.

HS.

[♔atthias♔]

sigh I am really clueless with this one

pike has a point about the personal derogatory statement about him

as for the rest since pike only gave credit to others after halie called him out for it, I am going for dismiss

[Hitai de Bodemloze]

Well dang, Halie did kind of put a foot wrong there. I couldn't care less about the plagiarism thing, but the whole 'your desperate need' thing does cross a line. Can we request a further defence for this first accusation, as Halie didn't address it?

[General Brewster]

You can, is that the will of you two?

What I do think needs to be stated that both Pike and Halie seem to be around each other's throats where's I find Halie a bit more civilized. It looks to me that this is a witch hunt where "something" popped up.

[Hitai de Bodemloze]

You can, is that the will of you two?

I would appreciate it, as it is definitely the main cause for concern from where I'm standing. The plagiarism accusation is one I care little for; I've been in academia long enough to know it's not always that cut and dry. Even if it was, I'm not sure it is unbecoming to accuse someone of plagiarism, provided they have the evidence to back it up.

What I do think needs to be stated that both Pike and Halie seem to be around each other's throats where's I find Halie a bit more civilized. It looks to me that this is a witch hunt where "something" popped up.

Whilst most - if not all - of these recent back and forth referrals have been pretty groundless, this is the first where there is a legitimate grievance I think. Whether it's worthy of further action or not is another issue, but it's certainly the first one where I've said 'ah, right, this isn't just an automatic dismiss'. But that aside, I'm not sure Halie is at Pike's throat anywhere near as much as Pike is at his. Doesn't make this referral any less valid though.

[♔atthias♔]

I would like a second defence too yes

[General Brewster]

Can either of you draft up the question? I'm a little pressed for time.

[Hitai de Bodemloze]

Dear Halie,

Thank you for the earlier defence you provided for Referral XXXIII on October 31st. The Censors are currently assessing your case and they have asked if you would like to submit an additional statement in defence of the first allegation made against you (that the statement "This comes across as nothing more than serving your desperate need to have your name on anything that gathers support" is a derogatory one), as you did not specifically address it on October 31st. You are under no formal obligation to present any additional defence, although if you are happy to accede to this request, could you please send me a reply as soon as possible.

Yours sincerely,
General Brewster

[General Brewster]

Done and thanks

[General Brewster]

I covered everything I needed to in the original response..

''As for the rest. He claims it's not plagiarism, I claim it is. etc etc''

The context is challenging his proposal as plagiarism. I do not feel someone who stoops that low to get his name on something we (Aik, Isk and myself) spent several days to define is worthy of citizenship. Let alone my respect.

However. That is a personal comment, derogatory is a stretch, and I'll not provide a defence for a statement I stand by.

Throw the book at me, make sure it's a big one, I'm made of the sternest of stuff.

[Hitai de Bodemloze]

Eh, well that isn't as helpful as I might've hoped.

I don't think it is dependant on the context of this specific proposal, since the original statement runs: "This comes across as nothing more than serving your desperate need to have your name on anything that gathers support", which is pretty extrinsic. This desperate need supposedly exists before and beyond the proposal at hand, and stretches to include any proposal that gains traction in the Curia. It's a pretty nasty accusation, with a very clear veiled insult.

But I don't know what to do with it, if I'm honest. I think it's a borderline comment; it would be harsh to hand out a censure, but I don't like to let it slide either.

[General Brewster]

I believe we sent a warning before. It's not something official but it can be done again if the two of you want it so

[Hitai de Bodemloze]

I suppose we could do that. Like a "we've dismissed your case, but we're not happy with you, so you'll be on thin ice for a while" kind of thing. Although it does just feel like a censure-lite, which seems kind of redundant.

[♔atthias♔]

well I would hold nothing against a warning if there is precedent for it

[General Brewster]

It's up to you two

[Hitai de Bodemloze]

I guess we can dismiss then and send an informal warning.

Voted.

[♔atthias♔]

I guess we can dismiss then and send an informal warning.

Voted.

let us do that then

also voted

[General Brewster]

If either if you want to draft a message for Halie I'll gladly send it.