Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 22

Thread: 2,400 year old shipwrecked Greek merchant ship found

  1. #1
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    NI
    Posts
    8,764
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default 2,400 year old shipwrecked Greek merchant ship found

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45951132

    A partially intact ship dated to 400BC was found in the Black Sea recently. It’s likely the original cargo could still be inside. What could this mean for our understanding of ancient greek naval prowess?
    Patronised by Pontifex Maximus
    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    The trick is to never be honest. That's what this social phenomenon is engineering: publicly conform, or else.

  2. #2
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Posts
    15,242

    Default Re: 2,400 year old shipwrecked Greek merchant ship found

    It is an awesome find, considering how the quarter-rudders have even survived. It also validates many of the depictions of Classical-period Greek ships on vases from the era. The now second oldest comparable find from the region dates to the late 2nd or early 3rd century AD, so it is definitely a majorly significant find. I'd put it up there with the discovery of the first-century Lake Nemi ships of Caligula, which sadly burned and was destroyed during WWII (although metal parts and the massive anchor still survive).

  3. #3
    Praeses
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    8,355

    Default Re: 2,400 year old shipwrecked Greek merchant ship found

    2 K down? No wonder the treasure hunters haven't got it. Maybe there's an undersea drone with a light enough touch to explore the wreck effectively. Be real cool if it was Skythian gold to pay for more wine.

    The preservation from the oxygen free water is nice, but its part of a bigger problem. The Black Sea has a massive reservoir of anoxic water because of the fertile sediment from all them rivers esp the Danube and Dneipr, the microbugs metabolise the hell out of it and the oxygen is gone. Its all down below and pretty stable under the top layer of oxygenated water, but if it ever inverted...there was a catastrophe at an Africa lake a decade or two ago when a similar situation went pear shaped. The layer of oxygenated water slipped under the anoxic water, and the anoxic water released tonnes of dissolved CO2, wiped out a lot of villages with a white mist that gently and irreversibly suffocated them.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  4. #4
    Senator
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    1,121

    Default Re: 2,400 year old shipwrecked Greek merchant ship found

    This one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Nyos_disaster

    With the seismic potential in the region around the Black Sea, a fitting landslide could surely happen.

    In regard on the topic: I always wonder how much such finds the Agean Seas etc. are still hiding.

  5. #5
    paleologos's Avatar You need burrito love!!
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Variable
    Posts
    8,496

    Default Re: 2,400 year old shipwrecked Greek merchant ship found

    CO2 is far less soluble in salt water because of the salt.
    The Lake Nyos disaster was a Limnic Eruption.
    "Lemne" means lake in Greek.
    This only happens in fresh water bodies.
    Just pour some salt in any carbonated drink and watch the bubbles rise.

    And now the last three posts can be moved by a moderator to a thread discussing science.

  6. #6
    Prince of Essling's Avatar Napoleonic Enthusiast
    Patrician

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Surrey, England
    Posts
    2,434

    Default Re: 2,400 year old shipwrecked Greek merchant ship found

    Quote Originally Posted by Morifea View Post
    This one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Nyos_disaster

    With the seismic potential in the region around the Black Sea, a fitting landslide could surely happen.

    In regard on the topic: I always wonder how much such finds the Agean Seas etc. are still hiding.
    Probably not a lot due to shipworms which bore into wood and destroy the ships - unlike in the Black sea where they cannot survive due to the lack of dissolved oxygen at the depths of the wrecks.
    Sign DLC petition for improved map for NTW
    Useful Websites |Napoleon: Masters of Europe |
    The Wardrobe of 1805 |Napoleon: Art of War|
    Frederick the Great: Art of War|
    Under the Patronage of Gunny
    "Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts."

  7. #7
    Praeses
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    8,355

    Default Re: 2,400 year old shipwrecked Greek merchant ship found

    Quote Originally Posted by Morifea View Post
    This one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Nyos_disaster

    With the seismic potential in the region around the Black Sea, a fitting landslide could surely happen.

    In regard on the topic: I always wonder how much such finds the Agean Seas etc. are still hiding.
    The Black Sea is pretty sweet, all that fresh water keeps the wrecks clean. I think the Aegean is a bit shallower and saltier, maybe rougher too: I could be wrong but I imagine things like the Thera eruption mess up the sea bed more.

    I often wonder about sunk and buried settlements around the Black Sea coast. Greater Anatolia seems to have been and important locus in the development of agriculture from the Neolithic on, but rising sea levels (and silt deposition) will have moved the old coast around. When sea level rise it runs a line of pounding surf across any sites of interest, but maybe a quick sea level rise plus seismic subsidence (its a hot zone) might have carried some neolithic village down under water quick enough to preserve it? There might be mud covered villages that used to be coastal, like near Ephesus which is way inland now.

    There'd be heaps of buried vessels under water but I think it'll take a few generations of tech to find them under the sediment. No doubt ancient sailors took their lives in their hands when they set out each summer sailing season. I recall reading in Australian history how sealers working here in the late 18th century thirty shipwrecks out of two hundred visits to one area (Bass Strait Islands IIRC), I mean fifteen percent total losses but the sea venture was still worth it. No doubt Hellenic sailors were happy to risk similar odds for the wealth long distance elite trade offered.

    I wonder about the dead guys, say they were from Athens or Euboea, some rich bloke put up the money, head up to the Chersonessos with some oil, some wine, bit late in the season but worth the risk because its been a bad season and the wheat brought back will make a motzah, then bang. Sunk like the Edmund Fitzgerald. Back home some widows starve, the kids get sick or die, the boss goes broke, he can't back his candidate and the archonships go to the other party. Bit of bad weather, suddenly its a change in government and a potential Sophokles or Diogenes is lost.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  8. #8
    Senator
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    1,121

    Default Re: 2,400 year old shipwrecked Greek merchant ship found

    @Cyclops: Last Year I was in northern Cyprus, their Salamis is an example of a partly submerged town.

    About Seafaring there is a saying in Coastal Germany: "Seefahrt ist Not", Seafaring means hardship. Imo thats very fitting.

    Your last Paragraph has a lot of "For the need of a nail, the shoe was lost...."
    I wonder how this long distant trade was organized in ancient time, thats something I have frankly no glue about, has anybody some recommendations?

  9. #9
    Praeses
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    8,355

    Default Re: 2,400 year old shipwrecked Greek merchant ship found

    Quote Originally Posted by Morifea View Post
    @Cyclops: Last Year I was in northern Cyprus, their Salamis is an example of a partly submerged town.
    I love that stuff. Must be a beaut place to visit, very jealous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morifea View Post
    About Seafaring there is a saying in Coastal Germany: "Seefahrt ist Not", Seafaring means hardship. Imo thats very fitting.
    Indeed, "the sea is a harsh mistress".

    Quote Originally Posted by Morifea View Post
    Your last Paragraph has a lot of "For the need of a nail, the shoe was lost...."
    I take a pretty socialist view of history, economic and environmental factors play a very big role in the course of events in my view, eg the US pasted japan in WW2 because [insert tables of steel and munitions production]. However individuals' decisions and circumstances can be demonstrated to play their part too, in very cool little episodes like Columbus and the Quetzalcoatl myth.

    When stratified societies focus their economic responsibility on their elite, and the elite are the point of contact across cultures then the significance of individual action is multiplied. Napoleon pulling off stunning victories against multiple opponents, or charming autocratic rulers into changing their alliances is an example that certainly shifted European history for some decades.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morifea View Post
    I wonder how this long distant trade was organized in ancient time, thats something I have frankly no glue about, has anybody some recommendations?
    Its been decades since I studied this formally. In the 1980's I studied Cypriot pottery with David Frankel, Robin Lane Fox touches on elite trade in his "Travelling Heroes" (although that's principally a speculative work about myth transmission). If you have access to JSTOR or a local academic library there's bundles of stuff, usually narrow focus.

    My favourite discussion on this is in Herodotus, where he talks about Hellenic myths and how people in the myths greet strangers by asking them "are you pirates?" as if there's nothing wrong with a bit of piracy. Clearly members of elite castes woulds pile into boats and set of for a bit of rape plunder or trade, or just making friends. This crops up in their myths repeatedly, from the abduction of Helen by elite Trojan visitors, to the abduction of Io by Phoenician traders, to Herodotus story about Kretans abducting Europa from Tyre etc etc.

    The Odyssey is a partial picture of one of these fratboy road trips, Ulysses piles his lads into a boat for a war against Troy, on the way home they pinch some cattle, get wrecked, ignore some dubious ladies on the shore, spend time with a relative of mine (and are extremely rude about the dinner arrangements, they ended up getting him blind drunk), try drugs, try extreme sports (whirlpool surfing), spend time with local ladies ("Honestly honey, I was kidnapped by Kalypso...for seven years..."), visit various other nobles along the way and enjoy hospitality and come home twenty years late.

    There sees to have been a strong shared elite culture of gift exchange amounting to trade between elites across various cultures. We know early Phoenicians were engaged in this, and later the Hellenes. Egypt's enormous elite culture was a focus of trade, often in the hands of their client states: we know Egyptians sometimes fled to the Levant where their wealth made them important among locals (eg the "Story of Sinhue", maybe Moses is a similar case): clearly their power flowed outward along the inward trade routes. This seems to be true in Mesopotamia as well, and I recall dimly the establishment of Syrian (I assume Assyrian) culture in Anatolia based around trade.

    Linguae Francae (is that the plural of Lingua Franca?) or common tongues must have played a part but not necessarily: the Phoenecians and Carthaginians employed dumb barter effectively in their trade with Atlantic Africa. IIRC there's an article by Colin Renfrew where he talked about so called Celtic languages, and the fact they may have grown from a common Neolithic central European language (and it later became a carrier for the popular Gallic culture). But the common languages are not needed, just people able to communicate with their neighbours.

    There's fairly long range trade from the old stone age as desirable objects like obsidian get passed long distances. EG I recall an obsidian source in the Caucasus that was carried, most likely traded, into the Aegean and the Pontic steppe, over a thousand kilometres.

    Bronze requires a combination of metals usually not found together, which stimulated trade for economic, military and status reasons, a very compelling combination. Probably this was genuine long distance trade rather than pass-the-parcel short step trade, bug lumps of metal need bulk transport and in the bronze age that means boats. Its a big investment, and its likely a few carriers dominated long distance trade stimulating wealth and cultural development in Phoenicia, Cyprus and Krete, and later Mykenaean Greece. The same cast of peoples flourish in the iron Age trade resurgance, with Phoenicia, Carthage and Euboea at the forefront.

    The iron age saw a simplification of the military aspect (iron and steel weapons only need wood and iron ore), hence many long range trade systems tied to elite culture were susceptible to collapse.

    People fight but people also talk and swap, its extremely human to do both and talking is less tiring than fighting.
    Last edited by Cyclops; October 25, 2018 at 04:23 PM.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  10. #10
    Senator
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    1,121

    Default Re: 2,400 year old shipwrecked Greek merchant ship found

    Northern Cyprus is a must visit (and not to expensive)..... and the food is quite good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post

    I take a pretty socialist view of history, economic and environmental factors play a very big role in the course of events in my view, eg the US pasted japan in WW2 because [insert tables of steel and munitions production]. However individuals' decisions and circumstances can be demonstrated to play their part too, in very cool little episodes like Columbus and the Quetzalcoatl myth.

    When stratified societies focus their economic responsibility on their elite, and the elite are the point of contact across cultures then the significance of individual action is multiplied. Napoleon pulling off stunning victories against multiple opponents, or charming autocratic rulers into changing their alliances is an example that certainly shifted European history for some decades.
    The connection between long term trends and all that makro stuff and those single persons, that have the luck to shape the world for good or bad, is it what makes studying history so intriuging.


    To Topic: The Concept of those travelling heroes is very fitting imo. I`m pretty sure in the Phoenician culture (and other mediterranian) has been similar stories like that of Jason, Odysseus, Theseus etc.
    They`ve likely behaved like vikings, attack when the foreigners are weak, trade if they have the means to defend themselves.
    Your Version of the Odysee is gold.... had to think twice about your relatives, but then I got it

    Onto Long Range- Trade: There has to be some kind of long range trade before the Bronzeage, otherwise the people that had the copper wouldn´t haven know about the tin from Britain (as far as I know the only Tin Depot in those time, or am I wrong?). The Obsidian trade is such a precursor.

    Besides that a great post, it brightened up my unexpectly labourful Friday, have some rep.

  11. #11

    Default Re: 2,400 year old shipwrecked Greek merchant ship found

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Linguae Francae (is that the plural of Lingua Franca?) or common tongues must have played a part but not necessarily: the Phoenecians and Carthaginians employed dumb barter effectively in their trade with Atlantic Africa.
    In the Late Bronze Near East it was Akkadian, then Aramaic in the Iron Age. The latter was fairly far reaching judging by the fact that the Brahmi alphabet in India was based on Aramaic, so shares a common lineage with the Greek alphabet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    IIRC there's an article by Colin Renfrew where he talked about so called Celtic languages, and the fact they may have grown from a common Neolithic central European language (and it later became a carrier for the popular Gallic culture).
    Pretty much everything Renfrew speculated on this topic turned out to be wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Bronze requires a combination of metals usually not found together, which stimulated trade for economic, military and status reasons, a very compelling combination. Probably this was genuine long distance trade rather than pass-the-parcel short step trade, bug lumps of metal need bulk transport and in the bronze age that means boats. Its a big investment, and its likely a few carriers dominated long distance trade stimulating wealth and cultural development in Phoenicia, Cyprus and Krete, and later Mykenaean Greece. The same cast of peoples flourish in the iron Age trade resurgance, with Phoenicia, Carthage and Euboea at the forefront.

    The iron age saw a simplification of the military aspect (iron and steel weapons only need wood and iron ore), hence many long range trade systems tied to elite culture were susceptible to collapse.
    Iron weapons only became predominate after the trade networks collapsed at the end of the Bronze Age. At first iron weapons weren't better, so this seems to be a pretty clear case of necessity being the mother of invention. Later in the Iron Age, there was a return to making arrowheads out of bronze. It was a lot easier to mass produce bronze arrowheads using molds, rather than individually forging iron arrowheads. In the Near East, the shafts of arrows were made of reeds so cast socketed arrowheads worked better than tanged arrowheads.

    Interestingly, the iron Roman arrowheads from Masada weren't hardened. They would have been less effective than bronze. I've read it suggested on several occasions that this was due to a shortage of water because the arrowheads were manufactured onsite, but this is stupid.

    Here's a picture from partway up Masada:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    That square in the middle of the picture next to a wadi is one of the Romans camps. Note that further into the background the wadi empties in a large body of water, a body of water which at the time had a shoreline almost up to where the road is now. In the picture, you can sort of see where the shoreline was by the lay of the land.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morifea View Post
    Onto Long Range- Trade: There has to be some kind of long range trade before the Bronzeage, otherwise the people that had the copper wouldn´t haven know about the tin from Britain (as far as I know the only Tin Depot in those time, or am I wrong?).
    There is no evidence for tin from Britain in the Ancient Near east until the Late Bronze Age, and then it is only two ingots from a shipwreck near Haifa that had Cypro-Minoan text on them. Even then isotopic analysis is not a clear match. The source of the tin in the Ancient Near East is somewhat of a mystery, but multiple lines of evidence support the notion that it came from Central Asia, specifically where isn't clear. There were a few mines in Anatolia but they didn't produce much considering that the Hittites had to import tin from Mesopotamia.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  12. #12
    Diocle's Avatar Comes Limitis
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Amon Amarth
    Posts
    12,572

    Default Re: 2,400 year old shipwrecked Greek merchant ship found

    Have we found one of Argonauts' ships?

    Anyway, IMO the ship looks older than just 400 BC.

    The ship found:



    Model of Minoan ship and ships from Akrotiri frescos in the Thera island dated around 1600 BC:


  13. #13
    Praeses
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    8,355

    Default Re: 2,400 year old shipwrecked Greek merchant ship found

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    In the Late Bronze Near East it was Akkadian, then Aramaic in the Iron Age. The latter was fairly far reaching judging by the fact that the Brahmi alphabet in India was based on Aramaic, so shares a common lineage with the Greek alphabet.
    That's news to me about Brahmi, fascinating stuff. Its interesting how Aramaic becomes a common ME tongue, IIRC it was spread in tandem with Assyrian military rule. Even when

    I know Sumerian spread as a language of the temple administration and as they were the landowning conglomerates of the day it was naturally the language of contracts and so on. The same goes for Akkadian, spread by royal conquest and I guess maybe cognate with other Semitic tongues in the region: was it easier to learn than difficult Sumerian giving it an advantage?

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    Pretty much everything Renfrew speculated on this topic turned out to be wrong.
    Poor old Colin, I've been out of the academic game so long much of my info is out of date.

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    Iron weapons only became predominate after the trade networks collapsed at the end of the Bronze Age. At first iron weapons weren't better, so this seems to be a pretty clear case of necessity being the mother of invention. Later in the Iron Age, there was a return to making arrowheads out of bronze. It was a lot easier to mass produce bronze arrowheads using molds, rather than individually forging iron arrowheads. In the Near East, the shafts of arrows were made of reeds so cast socketed arrowheads worked better than tanged arrowheads..
    I know they used bronze for breastplates too (I imagine for aesthetic/status reasons as well as the obvious technical one than bronze is easier worked into shape than iron). Sop it looks like a genuine economic and environmental collapse then, I had thought technological change pushed the collapse but if it happens afterwards...obviously correlation is not causation but it makes sense.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  14. #14

    Default Re: 2,400 year old shipwrecked Greek merchant ship found

    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Anyway, IMO the ship looks older than just 400 BC.
    I can't say I know much about the ships of the period, but the shape of the hull does look similar to the images you posted.

    I've read the estimate they're giving is based on radiocarbon dating, but C-14 levels are notoriously erratic in the First Millennium BCE and even more variable on the sea floor. Depending on the assumptions they made, and what other data they have by which to calibrate their results, the C-14 date could possibly be off by as much as several centuries either way, but I have no doubt that they will be able to date it reasonably accurately by its cargo once they get a good look at it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    That's news to me about Brahmi, fascinating stuff. Its interesting how Aramaic becomes a common ME tongue, IIRC it was spread in tandem with Assyrian military rule. Even when I know Sumerian spread as a language of the temple administration and as they were the landowning conglomerates of the day it was naturally the language of contracts and so on. The same goes for Akkadian, spread by royal conquest and I guess maybe cognate with other Semitic tongues in the region: was it easier to learn than difficult Sumerian giving it an advantage?
    Because Semitic languages are so organized and conservative, learning one when you already know another mostly involves plugging identical roots into parallel grammatical systems.

    Take the following examples from Akkadian to Canaanite:

    malku = melek (root = m-l-k)

    kalbu = keleb (root = k-l-b)

    kaspu = kesep (root = k-s-p)

    And any Arabic speaker who reads these examples already knows what at least the first two mean.

    Now tying this lingua franca discussion back to Greeks, I've read a proposed Indo-European etymology for the word "agora", but if that's true, it's quite a coincidence. Since in Hebrew, ᵓāgōrāh is the central gathering place in a town where business is done, and there is no way it's a loan word, because like all words related to gathering, collecting, or hoarding, it comes from the Semitic root ᵓ-g-r. Near identically pronounced words exist in Phoenician and Aramaic. My favorite word from this root is ᵓōgêr for hamster, the greatest hoarder among the Levantine fauna.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  15. #15
    Praeses
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    8,355

    Default Re: 2,400 year old shipwrecked Greek merchant ship found

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    ...
    Now tying this lingua franca discussion back to Greeks, I've read a proposed Indo-European etymology for the word "agora", but if that's true, it's quite a coincidence. Since in Hebrew, ᵓāgōrāh is the central gathering place in a town where business is done, and there is no way it's a loan word, because like all words related to gathering, collecting, or hoarding, it comes from the Semitic root ᵓ-g-r. Near identically pronounced words exist in Phoenician and Aramaic. My favorite word from this root is ᵓōgêr for hamster, the greatest hoarder among the Levantine fauna.
    I've read that Greek is the stickiest of the IE languages, picked up words (and grammar maybe?) from everywhere. The Phoenician connection is no surprise. I believe its attested in myths and archaeology as well. Got a Semitic etymology for C-D-M ?
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  16. #16
    neoptolemos's Avatar Breatannach Romanus
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Seirios,a parallel space,at your right
    Posts
    10,727

    Default Re: 2,400 year old shipwrecked Greek merchant ship found

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    Now tying this lingua franca discussion back to Greeks, I've read a proposed Indo-European etymology for the word "agora", but if that's true, it's quite a coincidence. Since in Hebrew, ᵓāgōrāh is the central gathering place in a town where business is done, and there is no way it's a loan word, because like all words related to gathering, collecting, or hoarding, it comes from the Semitic root ᵓ-g-r. Near identically pronounced words exist in Phoenician and Aramaic. My favorite word from this root is ᵓōgêr for hamster, the greatest hoarder among the Levantine fauna.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    I've read that Greek is the stickiest of the IE languages, picked up words (and grammar maybe?) from everywhere. The Phoenician connection is no surprise. I believe its attested in myths and archaeology as well. Got a Semitic etymology for C-D-M ?
    Regarding agora, etymology wise


    • < ΑΓΕΙΡΩ >
    • Από: ἀγορ- (ετεροιωμένη μορφή του ἀγερ-) + -ά.


    https://www.greek-language.gr/greekL...emma.html?id=4
    https://www.greek-language.gr/greekL...emma.html?id=5
    http://greek_greek.enacademic.com/65...AF%CF%81%CF%89
    https://el.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%B...AF%CF%81%CF%89

    Indeed Greek is quite a conservative language and still contains non-Greek words even pre-Greek ones like some placenames still used nowadays.
    Last edited by neoptolemos; October 28, 2018 at 04:54 PM.
    Quem faz injúria vil e sem razão,Com forças e poder em que está posto,Não vence; que a vitória verdadeira É saber ter justiça nua e inteira-He who, solely to oppress,Employs or martial force, or power, achieves No victory; but a true victory Is gained,when justice triumphs and prevails.
    Luís de Camões

  17. #17
    Praeses
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    8,355

    Default Re: 2,400 year old shipwrecked Greek merchant ship found

    Quote Originally Posted by neoptolemos View Post
    ...
    Indeed Greek is quite a conservative language and still contains non-Greek words even pre-Greek ones like some placenames still used nowadays.
    I would agree but I'd replace "conservative" with "outgoing".

    Its tricky to talk about "national character" because it can come across as racist, but I do think that culture can propagate character traits among people with the common language and beliefs. My impression is the Hellenes like to talk. I think they inherited this from past Hellenic cultures across the Med, and the ones that didn't have been silenced by their inability to tell their story.

    Maybe it was a trait of the Minoan pre-Hellenes of Krete, maybe it was the Mykenaeanised/Hellenised Cypriots, but for whatever reason I think the Hellenes were mostly good talkers (except the Spartans, and their laconic style was thought weird and remarkable by the others).

    I think their outgoing cultural style meant they met a lot of others and shared their culture and stories. I think its the epitome of Hellenic culture to talk to a lot of people, to hear and pass on stories.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  18. #18
    neoptolemos's Avatar Breatannach Romanus
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Seirios,a parallel space,at your right
    Posts
    10,727

    Default Re: 2,400 year old shipwrecked Greek merchant ship found

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    I would agree but I'd replace "conservative" with "outgoing".
    By no means "conservative" refers to the people speaking it
    Its tricky to talk about "national character" because it can come across as racist, but I do think that culture can propagate character traits among people with the common language and beliefs. My impression is the Hellenes like to talk. I think they inherited this from past Hellenic cultures across the Med, and the ones that didn't have been silenced by their inability to tell their story.
    Spot on observation my friend. Modern Greek literature is quite productive although not very well known except Kazantzakis, Seferis or Kafafis but since we like to talk a lot

    Maybe it was a trait of the Minoan pre-Hellenes of Krete, maybe it was the Mykenaeanised/Hellenised Cypriots, but for whatever reason I think the Hellenes were mostly good talkers (except the Spartans, and their laconic style was thought weird and remarkable by the others).
    Dorians (including akin Epirots and Macedonians) I would say they were "Doric"....(austere and frugal but majestic) in language and literature as well...
    http://www.greek-language.gr/greekLa...F%8C%CF%82&dq=
    I think their outgoing cultural style meant they met a lot of others and shared their culture and stories. I think its the epitome of Hellenic culture to talk to a lot of people, to hear and pass on stories.
    Oh indeed, and I would add that without preoccupation with the origin like Digenes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digenes_Akritas

    The remarks you are putting forward are relevant with the topic, because it was the people and the trade network they created (like the Phoenicians did in South Med) that affected culturally Eastern Med and Black sea, and it is important to see archealogy revealing new details about these people and their material culture
    Quem faz injúria vil e sem razão,Com forças e poder em que está posto,Não vence; que a vitória verdadeira É saber ter justiça nua e inteira-He who, solely to oppress,Employs or martial force, or power, achieves No victory; but a true victory Is gained,when justice triumphs and prevails.
    Luís de Camões

  19. #19

    Default Re: 2,400 year old shipwrecked Greek merchant ship found

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Got a Semitic etymology for C-D-M ?
    I think I know why you ask...

    There is q-d-m, the first sound is like a C or K but articulated further back, not easy to pronounce for Indo-European speakers. It's the Q in Quran or Qatar. Anyway, q-d-m is the root for words that mean before, front, to lead, to precede, to be first, in all Semitic languages, and also the word for east in West Semitic languages. It's been proposed as the etymology of Cadmus. If true, that would be very Canaanite for a mythological or mythologized figure to have a name that represents his or her role in the story, so potentially another Phoenician connection.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  20. #20
    Praeses
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    8,355

    Default Re: 2,400 year old shipwrecked Greek merchant ship found

    Quote Originally Posted by neoptolemos View Post
    By no means "conservative" refers to the people speaking it
    Spot on observation my friend. Modern Greek literature is quite productive although not very well known except Kazantzakis, Seferis or Kafafis but since we like to talk a lot

    Dorians (including akin Epirots and Macedonians) I would say they were "Doric"....(austere and frugal but majestic) in language and literature as well...
    http://www.greek-language.gr/greekLa...F%8C%CF%82&dq=

    Oh indeed, and I would add that without preoccupation with the origin like Digenes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digenes_Akritas

    The remarks you are putting forward are relevant with the topic, because it was the people and the trade network they created (like the Phoenicians did in South Med) that affected culturally Eastern Med and Black sea, and it is important to see archealogy revealing new details about these people and their material culture
    Twice Born Border Raider! I read about him in Brown. Hellas is at its greatest when it is all nations, and there are very few cultures whose light shines so bright because its shared.

    My mate born in Edessa subscribes to the "Makedonians are stern and honest" stereotype (although he was more of a Casanova as a young man). and don't get me started about the ones from Kalamata...
    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    I think I know why you ask...

    There is q-d-m, the first sound is like a C or K but articulated further back, not easy to pronounce for Indo-European speakers. It's the Q in Quran or Qatar. Anyway, q-d-m is the root for words that mean before, front, to lead, to precede, to be first, in all Semitic languages, and also the word for east in West Semitic languages. It's been proposed as the etymology of Cadmus. If true, that would be very Canaanite for a mythological or mythologized figure to have a name that represents his or her role in the story, so potentially another Phoenician connection.
    Indeed, occurred to me when I read your post in the thread about Hyksos. Cadmeia may have been as important in Mycenaean times as Argos and Mycenae, but when does this putative Phoenkian influence come? I would argue there was Dark Age contact after the dimming of Minoan culture, but there's a great heft of Hellenic Gods mentioned in linear B (presumably their myths survived the darkness too) so maybe Cadmus is a Bronze Age culture hero.

    Or maybe he's just a name like Arthur, a lost fragment spinning down from past conflagrations, burnt clean of meaning, that is attached to another story to give a patina of age and authority [hits blunt].

    As an aside, I have to thank you for your input. Its a field of variable quality on these boards, and you do your bit at the top end.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •