Curia officer - Prefect act.

[StealthFox]

Also, none of the curator's responsibilities are changed by this addition.

I knew you were going to say that! I'm okay with the position only policing citizen behavior (although would still urge consideration of assisting with moderation too), but would like it to be clearer that the position assists the Curator and that it's only responsible for posts made in the Curia. While it's true it doesn't necessarily detract from the Curator's role, its little changes like this that add up over the years which lead to original intent getting lost. The most recent example of the censure not originally intended to be a curial warning.

I have to agree with Iskar on the second point. However, we can add a directive along the lines that any report to Hex is recorded in the trium chat thread. The curator has no remit to intercede, but he can post his opinions should he wish.

I'd be okay with that compromise.

[PikeStance]

Thanks for clarifying; read this late at night.

Personally, and I have stated this many times, I think this all an overreaction to what I a not exactly certain. I am not exactly opposed has this is just a variation of the proposal I have already made. Five years is a ridiculous amount of time for an internet forum. Three years isn't much better.

I noticed in the past few weeks that civility has risen in the forum. It is far better than it has been before. it is almost ironic now to make any drastic changes where discourse has proven to be much more effective. The best thing that has come out of it is the listing of something tangible regarding behavior becoming of a citizen.

1. is in violation of the ToS. (Obvious, good to state it)
2. is bringing the Citizenry or site into disrepute. (This is the most nebulous of the list. It takes two to tangle and often placing blame on one is difficult)
3. publicly makes false statements about another member or their intentions. (Wow, definitely in favor of this one, if I had a dime this was done to me, I retire)
4. ignores warnings from staff, including the Curator or representatives of the Curator's office.
5. demonstrably lies. (I had someone lie about my "record as a magistrate, so this would have been great to have, This can only apply to cases where there is clear evidence though)
6. plagiarises or uses material without credit or reference.
7. damages discussions by repetitive posting without adding anything new. (This happens a lot; circular arguments.)

Again, personally, this is something worth exploring, discussion, ratifying and trying before we go to any other measure. Clear guidelines will go a long way to promoting civility.

[Hader]

Simpler at least, not too overreaching or overbearing. But I still oppose. I don't see any of the recent proposals related to this "citizen behavior" stuff as being anything more than potential patchwork jobs at best, or just unnecessary and/or irrelevant to the real issues at hand. I can see this getting implemented and if I poked my head in here a year later after that, nothing substantial will truly have changed at all.

[♔atthias♔]

support for the lastest version

[Halie Satanus]

Personally, and I have stated this many times, I think this all an overreaction to what I a not exactly certain.

I don't think this is an overreaction. In fact it's long overdue. In the last five years how many times has someone pointed out 'behaviour unbecoming is nebulous.' I gave a very solid reasoning in the OP. If you're not supporting please state that you oppose so we can forgo the usual six pages of circular arguing.

I noticed in the past few weeks that civility has risen in the forum. It is far better than it has been before. it is almost ironic now to make any drastic changes where discourse has proven to be much more effective.

Since you were made curator, charged by the censors, and the charge was upheld by the curia. I don't expect you to correlate those events. But I did, and I'm sure others did too. But this isn't about you.

its little changes like this that add up over the years which lead to original intent getting lost.

Oh I agree 100%. The longer you're around here the more you witness acorns become oaks.. It's why I want this role to be appointed not voted, I was thinking of putting in a termination of service clause, actionable by the curator. Hire and fire. I'll do some editing later to reflect compromises..

Simpler at least, not too overreaching or overbearing. But I still oppose. I don't see any of the recent proposals related to this "citizen behavior" stuff as being anything more than potential patchwork jobs at best, or just unnecessary and/or irrelevant to the real issues at hand. I can see this getting implemented and if I poked my head in here a year later after that, nothing substantial will truly have changed at all.

The curia can be productive again, but it needs to build itself back up, grand gestures don't work. We tried that with the CdeC, it failed, we tried it with Ian's reforms. It failed. We tried it with the triumvirate, it doesn't cope with the small stuff, and that becomes big stuff. So we start small, set a foundation and take it from there.

[Flinn]

So we start small, set a foundation and take it from there.

that's the only way to go

also, I don't get how long the Prefect will be in charge.. I assume they will serve the same term as the Curator who appoints them?
I like the idea of the ratification, 90% of the times it will be a no brainer, 10% (times of troubles) it can make the difference if we have someone who's fully trusted in these duties...

[PikeStance]

I don't think this is an overreaction. In fact it's long overdue. In the last five years how many times has someone pointed out 'behaviour unbecoming is nebulous.' I gave a very solid reasoning in the OP. If you're not supporting please state that you oppose so we can forgo the usual six pages of circular arguing.

This is precisely why I stated that the best course of action is to discuss the list created by Iskar. It is a good starting point and a more practical course of action at this time.

Since you were made curator, charged by the censors, and the charge was upheld by the curia. I don't expect you to correlate those events. But I did, and I'm sure others did too. But this isn't about you.

What do I have to do with the improve civility? this is what you are responding to: I noticed in the past few weeks that civility has risen in the forum. It is far better than it has been before. it is almost ironic now to make any drastic changes where discourse has proven to be much more effective.
Where is me in this? Where is "this proposal" in this too. It was a general observation I could post in every single proposal.

Some other drawbacks...
Given the nature of some of the discussions in the past and the lack of referral issues, they are people eligible for the position who would not be well suited for the position. Meaning the pool is much smaller than you think. You could argue trust, but if we had trust, then we would not need this position in the first place.
Electing a Curator will become interesting, the big question; who will you appoint as "Prefect?" The Curator election would be electing two people not one. This is a big problem; potentially, citizens can make decisions based on who will be appointed prefect, rather than who they want as Curator.

The curia can be productive again, but it needs to build itself back up, grand gestures don't work. We tried that with the CdeC, it failed, we tried it with Ian's reforms. It failed. We tried it with the triumvirate, it doesn't cope with the small stuff, and that becomes big stuff. So we start small, set a foundation and take it from there.

Isn't this proposal (and others) all grand gestures? They are altering the way the Curia functions.

[Hader]

The curia can be productive again, but it needs to build itself back up, grand gestures don't work. We tried that with the CdeC, it failed, we tried it with Ian's reforms. It failed. We tried it with the triumvirate, it doesn't cope with the small stuff, and that becomes big stuff. So we start small, set a foundation and take it from there.

And I see much of the recent discussion and proposals as trying to treat anxiety attacks with a flu shot. I don't agree that the current course the curia seems to take to such a foundation will end up working.

[Halie Satanus]

And I see much of the recent discussion and proposals as trying to treat anxiety attacks with a flu shot. I don't agree that the current course the curia seems to take to such a foundation will end up working.

Unless you have a way to make the changes which you seem to think are needed, your opposition (to the curia trying to rebuild) has been noted.

@Pike. Your concerns have been noted. I see nothing being added bar the inference you feel others have not read the proposal and seen hidden issues. I do not prescribe to the same view, and I did say I'm not going to engage in circular arguments.

Edit's added.

Edit 4. Added 'Hex reports shall be recorded in the polita chat thread.' 13.
Edit 5. Added '♔atthias♔ and Aexodus' support.
Edit 6. Altered - Appointed by the curator to assist in moderation of citizens behaviour.' 13

[Hader]

Unless you have a way to make the changes which you seem to think are needed, your opposition (to the curia trying to rebuild) has been noted.

I'd have to sit down and take a closer look at many things here to really get somewhere I felt more substantial with any proposal or anything in the curia in general, and frankly with my time time I do have I need to and want to spend that more driven towards current staff work anyways. Why am I here now? No idea really, but this sums up what my attitude in the curia ends up generally gravitating towards



...and I believe I am near the end part of that for now

[Halie Satanus]

...and I believe I am near the end part of that for now

Well I'll look forward to you not spamming my proposal again and making me spend time calling you out for it..

[PikeStance]

@Pike. Your concerns have been noted. I see nothing being added bar the inference you feel others have not read the proposal and seen hidden issues. I do not prescribe to the same view, and I did say I'm not going to engage in circular arguments.

It is not a circular argument since you have not responded to it. If this passes, then we shall see if I am right. You will most likely get the three supporters, so I see y'all at the polls.

[Aexodus]

This seems a pretty flexible amendment, but 3 years seems a but much (I know it was reduced from 5).

Support for the concept of a curial inquisition

[Halie Satanus]

also, I don't get how long the Prefect will be in charge.. I assume they will serve the same term as the Curator who appoints them?

Yes. And until the next is appointed. I don't want to complicate this with terms and resignation or termination policies, that's how we ended up with a constitution more complex and convoluted than most small countries.

but 3 years seems a but much (I know it was reduced from 5).

I once exiled myself from the curia for five years due to a minor irritation. Tis but a drop in time. That said, that will likely get whittled down before this goes to vote. Though I don't see it going down less than two years and three is a strong possibility.

Electing a Curator will become interesting, the big question; who will you appoint as "Prefect?"

Clearly the reply would be, let's see who applies.

Isn't this proposal (and others) all grand gestures? They are altering the way the Curia functions.

Most who've responded, see this for what it is. A practical and long overdue answer to addressing minor confrontations in the curia. Whether it goes beyond that remains to be seen. It most certainly isn't a grand gesture.

This is a big problem; potentially, citizens can make decisions based on who will be appointed prefect, rather than who they want as Curator.

If citizens are thinking this I would suggest they also think long and hard about their motivations and activity in the curia... Please try to stop getting ahead of the proposal in hand.

Lastly. ''Where is me in this? Where is "this proposal" in this too.'' The reply was to your comment that has nothing to do with this proposal..

[PikeStance]

Clearly the reply would be, let's see who applies.
If citizens are thinking this I would suggest they also think long and hard about their motivations and activity in the curia... Please try to stop getting ahead of the proposal in hand.

Yes, but this is a real concern. It will certainly alter the way Curators are elected. The most concerning its members running as teams and electing for concerns other than the duties of the position. Is it wise to ignore an unintended consequence?

Most who've responded, see this for what it is. A practical and long overdue answer to addressing minor confrontations in the curia. Whether it goes beyond that remains to be seen. It most certainly isn't a grand gesture.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but you have presented a "code" of conduct that does define ideal conduct by a citizen. Would it not be "practical" to start there first and then proceed with alternatives? Why not take it one step at a time?

Lastly. ''Where is me in this? Where is "this proposal" in this too.'' The reply was to your comment that has nothing to do with this proposal..

Yes, it did and I made that clear in my last reply. It applies to every single proposal made regarding this issue.

I a not necessarily opposed to this idea, after all, I made a similar proposal, The criticism with that proposal applies here as well. They are legitimate concerns. Thee are also slightly different concerns due to one being elected and one is appointed. I indicated them above. Everything thing needs to be discussed so that everyone knows exactly what are the unintended consequences may be. If we are all fine with them, then it will pass.

[StealthFox]

Thanks for incorporating some of my suggestions. I'm willing to give this a try. Support.

[Iskar]

I'll support this, even though I would like the Prefect to have full local mod permissions, including editing and deleting posts. Authoritative thread warnings will go a long way already, though.

[Halie Satanus]

We may well get there, we may not need too. I'm certainly interested to see how Aik and Brew's curatorial collective works out.

[King Athelstan]

This seems reasonable, I support.

[Elfdude]

Moved to vote