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Thread: The nature of evil

  1. #1
    Papay's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default The nature of evil

    So i was watching a documentary in which some lions were eating alive a buffalo and it struck me that this is quite normal out there. Every day thousands of animals suffer a torturous death because carnivores are forced to eat them(they dont have an alternative choice). We humans do the exact same thing. Yes we dont eat animals alive but we are forced to kill them in order to survive. Since nature forces as to inflict suffering to other beings then how realistic is to try to banish evil from our society?

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    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The nature of evil

    Quote Originally Posted by Papay View Post
    So i was watching a documentary in which some lions were eating alive a buffalo and it struck me that this is quite normal out there. Every day thousands of animals suffer a torturous death because carnivores are forced to eat them(they dont have an alternative choice). We humans do the exact same thing. Yes we dont eat animals alive but we are forced to kill them in order to survive. Since nature forces as to inflict suffering to other beings then how realistic is to try to banish evil from our society?
    Papay,

    Since all of creation is under the curse that changed the nature of all things, it is written that a new creation has to replace it meaning there is no other answer. Clearly evolution has not been able to were it a real thing but as it is not that leaves what is written. Turn back to God and receive new life through the shed blood of Jesus Christ to make sure that death cannot enter your life ever again. Enter what Adam had a glimpse of by the garden where the lion and the lamb never had any need to devour each other.

  3. #3
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: The nature of evil

    Since all of creation is under the curse that changed the nature of all things,
    Yep there is irrational god for you cures everything because 2 people made a mistake, the lion and lamb did not....

    Clearly evolution has not been able to were it a real thing
    Evolution is a scientific framework to describe the parts of the state of the world based on observable evidence not a religion. It does not posit morality or lack thereof or a directed goal to improvement. If the Cuban missile crises whent wrong and JFK used the SIOP humans would not likely be doing so good, but ants, Cockroaches and small cats would look like winners.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  4. #4
    paleologos's Avatar You need burrito love!!
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    Default Re: The nature of evil

    Quote Originally Posted by Papay View Post
    ...
    Since nature forces as to inflict suffering to other beings then...
    Nature does not force us that.
    We have ways to kill animals painlessly.
    If some people inflict suffering to other beings, animals or humans, they are doing it out of some sort of imbalance.


    Quote Originally Posted by Papay View Post
    ...how realistic is to try to banish evil from our society?
    The line between good and evil runs through every single human heart.
    You cannot banish evil from yourself, let alone the rest of society.
    The set of laws societies choose for themselves and the associated criminal justice systems, are intended to do other things than banish evil itself.

    A few of those things are:
    To intimidate those who can be intimidated so as not to harm others.
    To lock away those who cannot be intimidated so as not to harm others any more.
    To make those who can be intimidated feel righteous/vindicated for abiding the law/not harming others, thus increasing their loyalty to the state.
    Most importantly, to avoid the vendetta, as a means of deterring mass injustice to one's family: in a lawless environment, if you do not avenge trespasses, you invite more of the same.

    Regardless of the success of the above, evil remains with us because it is part of who we are.
    The best we can hope for is to minimize the impact of evil and avoid creating perverse motives.

    Also, in my mind a good person is not the person who does no evil.
    If you are capable of harming/taking advantage of others and you can profit from it and you can do it and get away with it and still you choose not to harm/take advantage of them, then and only then can you say that you are a good person.
    How many are like that?
    I know I am not.
    Last edited by paleologos; October 19, 2018 at 10:27 PM.

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    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The nature of evil

    Jesus once replied to someone that no-one is good but God and Paul reiterates that by saying that all fall short of the glory of God in his letter to the Romans. That its curse has been laid on all things hasn't taken away our being able to do good, it's just that we cannot maintain that level all the time and remember the measure is from birth until death. To be rid of evil one has to get rid of the curse that each individual is under and that's why God sent Jesus into the world. He took that curse upon Himself the day He was pinned to that cross so that anyone, stress anyone, who believes on Him shall be saved, shall have the curse removed. In other words, the day a person is born again is the day that their nature is so changed that even the Law cannot touch them never mind the curse. The evil that was in them controlling them has lost its power meaning that God can now say that He never even remembers them as being sinners under the curse.

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    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: The nature of evil

    If you are capable of harming/taking advantage of others and you can profit from it and you can do it and get away with it and still you choose not to harm/take advantage of them, then and only then can you say that you are a good person.
    How many are like that?
    I know I am not.
    Aw snap are you saying that padding my income in collage by tagging along to parties where knew I could nominally gamble with drunk fools who thought they play poker or pinochle was evil? I thought the fact I was not drinking their keg beer was a fair trade.
    Last edited by conon394; October 20, 2018 at 06:32 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  7. #7
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The nature of evil

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Aw snap are you saying that padding my income in collage by tagging along to parties where knew I could nominally gamble with drunk fools who thought they play poker or pinochle was evil? I thought the fact I was not drinking their keg beer was a fair trade.
    conon394,

    Admitting that you were taking advantage of them in their drunken state would be evil in the eyes of God.

  8. #8
    Praeses
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    Default Re: The nature of evil

    Evil is a fluid term, like ethics. People literally make it up as we go along, but its shared because we're communal creatures.

    I think there's an attempt to grope for the truth (although that's another slippery term) in the conception of evil in many religious traditions, that humans somehow have an intrinsic burden of evil: we have so many drives, so many motives and so many ethical standards against which we can measure our behaviours that's its always possible to condemn an action. I think people find it very hard to eliminate evil, for this reason.

    Originally posted by Alexander Solzhenitsyn: “If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?”
    Its an attractive idea that evil can be cast out, that it has a cause, that it is other and the other can be removed, but I think we know in the end it is us.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  9. #9
    Diocle's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: The nature of evil

    Quote Originally Posted by Papay View Post
    So i was watching a documentary in which some lions were eating alive a buffalo and it struck me that this is quite normal out there. Every day thousands of animals suffer a torturous death because carnivores are forced to eat them(they dont have an alternative choice). We humans do the exact same thing. Yes we dont eat animals alive but we are forced to kill them in order to survive. Since nature forces as to inflict suffering to other beings then how realistic is to try to banish evil from our society?
    This is false, we are not forced to eat animals' meat to survive, vegetable proteins can easily replace those of animals (which above all cause cancer), so, actually nobody forces you to kill and eat animals, Papay, it's just your choice.




    Even though, I don't think killing animals is inherently evil, the Catholic Church teaches that Evil is always a free choice.

  10. #10
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The nature of evil

    Evil is something we do knowing that we shouldn't and it begins with the simplest of acts, like lying not only to yourself but to others, like stealing time from your employer or even a loved one, like ignoring lawful signs as though it were normal to do such. The list goes on and on simply because we do them naturally, mostly without thinking and on occasion knowing quite well what we are doing is wrong. The strange thing is that there are those who will defend the evil they do with the thought that there is no harm in it as long as no-one else is physically harmed by their actions so rather than elevating themselves in regards to their fellow men all they are doing is compiling the downward spiral in which they cannot see yet are in.

  11. #11

    Default Re: The nature of evil

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Evil is something we do knowing that we shouldn't and it begins with the simplest of acts, like lying not only to yourself but to others, like stealing time from your employer or even a loved one, like ignoring lawful signs as though it were normal to do such. The list goes on and on simply because we do them naturally, mostly without thinking and on occasion knowing quite well what we are doing is wrong. The strange thing is that there are those who will defend the evil they do with the thought that there is no harm in it as long as no-one else is physically harmed by their actions so rather than elevating themselves in regards to their fellow men all they are doing is compiling the downward spiral in which they cannot see yet are in.
    How is lying evil? Am I evil for telling my 8 year old daughter that Santa and the Easter Bunny are real?

  12. #12
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: The nature of evil

    This is false, we are not forced to eat animals' meat to survive, vegetable proteins can easily replace those of animals (which above all cause cancer), so, actually nobody forces you to kill and eat animals, Papay, it's just your choice.
    Its not simple. On the first order that is a lot of marginal land that cannot really sustain long term crop use, but can be maintained indefinably as pasture or a hay crop. You also have to find replacement for animal dirived products, those of rendered animals and manure etc. Also even animal use that does not directly involve killing the animal, eggs, dairy, wool, etc would be more difficult to do if you were not at the end sending the animal to slaughter. Individually yes anyone can make a choice to be a vegetarian, but as a society it would be very difficult perhaps impossible to make the world vegetarian (the amount of protein lost to the world from not fishing alone is staggering for example)
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  13. #13

    Default Re: The nature of evil

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    like lying not only to yourself but to others
    Does that include the preposterous idea that Jesus magically changes himself into red wine and wafers every Sunday? Or that every single type of creature on earth lived within walking distance of Noah's House?

  14. #14
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: The nature of evil

    How is lying evil? Am I evil for telling my 8 year old daughter that Santa and the Easter Bunny are real?
    Clearly wrong - while we are in hell can I interest you in a game cards?
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  15. #15

    Default Re: The nature of evil

    Santa is not... real?
    Ignore List (to save time):

    Exarch, Coughdrop addict

  16. #16
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The nature of evil

    Quote Originally Posted by 95thrifleman View Post
    How is lying evil? Am I evil for telling my 8 year old daughter that Santa and the Easter Bunny are real?
    95thrifleman,

    So if your eight year old daughter did something and lied about it to you because she knew it was wrong, why would she lie to you about it? Could it be that you might punish her? If memory serves me correct at eight I knew that Santa and the Easter bunny weren't real as did my friends so we went along with it because it was harmless and we wanted our presents. I suspect that your daughter does the same.

  17. #17

    Default Re: The nature of evil

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    95thrifleman,

    So if your eight year old daughter did something and lied about it to you because she knew it was wrong, why would she lie to you about it? Could it be that you might punish her? If memory serves me correct at eight I knew that Santa and the Easter bunny weren't real as did my friends so we went along with it because it was harmless and we wanted our presents. I suspect that your daughter does the same.
    Now you are introducing degrees, lying about one thing is ok but not about another.

  18. #18
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The nature of evil

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeft View Post
    Does that include the preposterous idea that Jesus magically changes himself into red wine and wafers every Sunday? Or that every single type of creature on earth lived within walking distance of Noah's House?
    TheLeft,

    As Jesus does not change into wine or wafers there's no argument to make here. Now in the days of Noah there was but one land mass so getting the animals to the Ark was no problem especially as God brought them to him. I do wish you guys would read the Bible.

  19. #19

    Default Re: The nature of evil

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    TheLeft,

    As Jesus does not change into wine or wafers there's no argument to make here. Now in the days of Noah there was but one land mass so getting the animals to the Ark was no problem especially as God brought them to him. I do wish you guys would read the Bible.
    When the world was one landmass there where no humans....

  20. #20
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: The nature of evil

    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    This is false, we are not forced to eat animals' meat to survive, vegetable proteins can easily replace those of animals (which above all cause cancer), so, actually nobody forces you to kill and eat animals, Papay, it's just your choice.
    Not all proteins provide nutrition, if you only eat rabbit for 2 weeks you will die of starvation. Vegetable proteins have 20% of the digestion rate of animal proteins. Meaning your body can only digest a 5th of the vegetable proteins you eat, which is why beans et co make you fart.
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