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  1. #1
    PikeStance's Avatar Greater of Two Evils
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    Default [Amendment] Staff Referral Change

    This is partly motivated by these two comments;

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    Most users (citizens included) never have any issue with moderation. Thats right. Citizens, despite the extra penalty (staff referrals), continue to break the ToS with the same naturalness as any other user./...some are obviously not a model at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tango12345 View Post
    In terms of infraction numbers/numbers of users infracted, I am, and he is not wrong. I believe its been mentioned in the mod com a few times, though I cannot remember the most recent occasion.
    While as citizens, we struggle to define conduct unbecoming a citizen when it is something above and beyond the ToS, we can all agree that violating the Terms of Service is conduct unbecoming a citizen. It isn't the role of the Censor to determine if the terms of Service was violated but to judge if that behavior is unbecoming. If moderation deemed a post a violation the offender citizen does not appeal, then the citizen is accepting the fact that he/she violated the Terms of Service. As Censor, in the past, I have rationalized dismissing ToS violations. In retrospect, this was in error. It is a contradiction to state that we can violate a ToS and still be acting in accordance to a higher standard. Thus, I propose the following changes.

    + The first vote to determine to dismiss or take further action is removed.
    + The Triumvirate will determine what the further action should be only.
    + Citizens may appeal decision from suspension of two weeks to the removal of rank.

    Citizens should not be violating the ToS at the same frequency as other members.

    The Constitutional Changes
    Citizens are expected to behave in an exemplary manner and can be referred1 to the Triumvirate for a review of their behaviour and possible disciplinary action.
    Such a Referral is initiated automatically by Moderation for infractions incurred 12[, or discretionally by Citizens2 for behaviour considered unbecoming. The Triumvirate then requests a defence3 from the referred and decides4 whether5 and which6 disciplinary action is to be taken.7 It consists of:

    • The Censors - Who discuss and vote on every Referral.
    • The Curator - Who may discuss Referrals, but only votes in the case of a tie.
    • Hexagon Council members - Who may choose to participate.



    Members of the Triumvirate must recuse themselves in their own Referrals.8


    If a Citizen is not satisfied with the result of their Referral, they may request a public appeal11. The appeal will be discussed and decided in the Curia 9. The result is binding and is not subject to further appeal.

    To serve on the Tribunal, a panel of Tribunes is appointed by the Hexagon Council and two Magistrates are elected by the Curia. Magistrates rotate as acting Tribunes, each voting on one of every two cases.

    3 Any defence must be provided within ninety-six hours of the request including any intentions to appeal a staff referral. If an appeal is made, the Triumvirate should delay the process until the issue is resolved. . At the request of the referred, the Curator also accepts materials provided on behalf of the referred. In a citizen referral, such materials shall be posted until the first voting poll is concluded, and must be considered by the Citizens' Triumvirate in the second voting poll, if such a poll is required.

    5 Four days after requesting a defence, regardless of whether it has been received, a vote is opened by the Curator to conclude after four days with the options to dismiss the Referral, take further action, or abstain in a Citizen referral only. A Staff Referral proceeds directly to a vote for Further Action.

    11 Citizens in a staff referral may only appeal is the decision resulted in a suspension of two weeks to the removal of rank. Citizens may appeal any Further Action decision.

    12 If it is an appeal is granted or Moderation removes the infraction, then the referral will proceed as a citizen referral.

    DOCUMENTED CHANGES TO AMENDMENT (as of 17 October 2018)_____________________________
    1. Added a change that accounts for when a staff referral is appealed or removed resulting it becoming a citizen referral
    2. Added that the Curator in addition to asking for defense, asking the referred if they intend to appeal.
    3. Added the delay of procedure in the event of an appeal being made.
    3. Corrected the misaligned footnotes. I made the changes to footnote sequential.


    SUPPORTER
    Last edited by PikeStance; November 12, 2018 at 07:08 AM.

  2. #2
    General Brewster's Avatar The Flying Dutchman
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Staff Referral Change

    There's some merit to this.

  3. #3
    ♔Greek Strategos♔'s Avatar THE BEARDED MACE
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Staff Referral Change

    From a quick look seems quite sensible.

  4. #4
    Elfdude's Avatar Tribunus
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Staff Referral Change

    Opposed, citizens can be referred to triumvirate for actions which are inevitably not a violation of ToS even when it's a staff referral. Many infractions are appealed and reversed. The ability to dismiss a referral as unnecessary should always exist.

    Also 9 is really hard to parse, you may want to rewrite that bit.

  5. #5
    PikeStance's Avatar Greater of Two Evils
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Staff Referral Change

    No, this change refers to only staff referrals in which an infraction is given. If it is an appeal is granted or Moderation removes the infraction, then it is no longer a staff referral but a citizen referral.
    I will make this crystal clear.

  6. #6
    PikeStance's Avatar Greater of Two Evils
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Staff Referral Change

    UPDATED

  7. #7

    Default Re: [Amendment] Staff Referral Change

    Opposed. Staff referrals should be removed from the Constitution and remitted to the sole jurisdiction of citizen referrals, or mandated disclosures to the Curators/Triumvirs who may then decide to make a referral of the matter. Staff has made it clear they do not value citizenship, and it seems incongruous that staff should have automatic rights within the Curia as a result, much less these extended rights. If we cannot police ourselves we do not deserve to exist as we have. Staff should have no automatic rights within the Curia.

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    PikeStance's Avatar Greater of Two Evils
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Staff Referral Change

    Ok, Ponti, I see that you are on some kind of crusade here, but this is not "letting staff" in. It isn't in our best interest to allow citizens to violate the ToS without punishment from the Curia. Since we are supposed to be a higher standard, then it is incongruent to argue otherwise It is also a little difficult to "police ourselves" outside of the Curia given that posts that violate the ToS are either edited out or removed.

    Do not conflate this proposal with the Global Moderation proposal. they are two totally different things.

  9. #9
    PikeStance's Avatar Greater of Two Evils
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Staff Referral Change

    Bumping this for discussion.

  10. #10
    Commissar Caligula_'s Avatar The Ecstasy of Potatoes
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Staff Referral Change

    So basically if Moderation finds that you have broken the ToS and they infract you, you WILL be punished by the Triumvirate and the only question is how harsh the punishment will be, eg Censure or suspension of Citizenship?



  11. #11
    Lifthrasir's Avatar "Capre" Dunkerquois
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Staff Referral Change

    Can't see the point of reforming this process. In its current form, it's fine with me.
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  12. #12
    Veteraan's Avatar TATW Local Moderator
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Staff Referral Change

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    Can't see the point of reforming this process. In its current form, it's fine with me.
    Agree.

    Also, I have on occasion dismissed (together with the other censor) cases that were based on a staff referral. In my experience, which is rather extensive, it can certainly happen that a citizen has violated the TOS, but not necessarily has shown conduct unbecoming of a citizen.

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    Citizens should not be violating the ToS at the same frequency as other citizens.
    I have no idea what is meant by this.

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  13. #13
    Tango12345's Avatar Never mind the manoeuvres...
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Staff Referral Change

    Opposed. I do not believe that making this process less flexible is a good idea. As vet says, one does not necessarily follow the other.

  14. #14
    PikeStance's Avatar Greater of Two Evils
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Staff Referral Change

    Quote Originally Posted by Veteraan View Post
    Agree.
    Also, I have on occasion dismissed (together with the other censor) cases that were based on a staff referral. In my experience, which is rather extensive, it can certainly happen that a citizen has violated the TOS, but not necessarily has shown conduct unbecoming of a citizen.
    In my experience as Censor I also judged that a citizen that violated the ToS was not conducting unbecoming. However, I recognized that was foolish. If a non-citizen were to receive that same violation we would not even consider the application for citizenship, but we think it is fine as a citizen? This is hypocrisy. It is also called inconsistent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veteraan View Post
    I have no idea what is meant by this.
    Obvious typo. fixed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tango12345 View Post
    Opposed. I do not believe that making this process less flexible is a good idea. As vet says, one does not necessarily follow the other.
    Sure it is flexible. We can slap a Censure or suspend. Why do we want to tolerate citizens that cannot abide by the ToS?

  15. #15
    Leonardo's Avatar Reborn Old Timer
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Staff Referral Change

    Opposed. Below is my reason why.

    12 If it is an appeal is granted or Moderation removes the infraction, then the referral will proceed as a citizen referral.
    If a citizen gets infracted and later in the Tribunal moderation have removed the infraction after have review it then I can't see any reason why a citizen who have been forgiven (I can't find a better word) by the Tribunal needs to face a citizen referral in the curia and to be judged by the Triumvirate based on a removed infraction.

    After all moderators are humans and nobody is perfect and even a moderator can make a mistake.
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  16. #16
    PikeStance's Avatar Greater of Two Evils
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Staff Referral Change

    Quote Originally Posted by Leonardo View Post
    Opposed. Below is my reason why.

    If a citizen gets infracted and later in the Tribunal moderation have removed the infraction after have review it then I can't see any reason why a citizen who have been forgiven (I can't find a better word) by the Tribunal needs to face a citizen referral in the curia and to be judged by the Triumvirate based on a removed infraction.

    After all moderators are humans and nobody is perfect and even a moderator can make a mistake.
    The OP is outdated. Citizen referrals no longer exist.

  17. #17
    Leonardo's Avatar Reborn Old Timer
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Staff Referral Change

    Then this amendment should be declared abandoned then closed and archived.
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  18. #18
    Tango12345's Avatar Never mind the manoeuvres...
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Staff Referral Change

    Even under the old system Moderation never 'repealed' a referral-as soon as a staff referral is made then it is completely separate from any appeals that the referred wants to have, and does not automatically end if an appeal in the Tribunal is successful. The triumvirate are welcome to take any appeals into account, and dismiss the referral if that is what they want to do, but the choice is for them to make.

  19. #19
    StealthFox's Avatar Consensus Achieved
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Staff Referral Change

    Since this hasn't been posted in for over 28 days, I'm going to go ahead and archive it marking it abandoned.

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