View Poll Results: What is to be done with this Referral?

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Thread: [2018-XXVI] [Citizen Referral] Elfdude

  1. #1
    Hitai de Bodemloze's Avatar 避世絕俗
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    Default [2018-XXVI] [Citizen Referral] Elfdude

    Dear Triumvirate,

    I would like to make the following referral concerning the behavior of Elfdude in the recent Pikestance's appeal.


    He made the following post.
    Elfdude's Post
    After speaking at length with others I've voted uphold. This has mostly to do with my irritation about how you act as curator and regards to opposition towards Irontaino's application. Staffing is not a laurel or a feather in your hat. Signing reputation with "Pike Curator" amongst other things and acting as some sort of authority beyond your duties is not becoming.
    The specific instruction made it clear that the only consideration is the decision of the Triumvirate concerning Pikestance's Censure.
    Hitai's directions
    Also I must stress that this is a vote on the Triumvirate's decision of further action against PikeStance, not whether or not this decision should cost him the office of Curator. The latter is a Constitutional matter
    Additionally, his point would be more appropriate for a VonC as outlined in Section 3 Art III
    A VoNC may only be initiated for neglect of duty or abuse of authority
    It is conduct unbecoming a citizen to ignore the authority of a Curial officer about what can and cannot be considered in the discussion. At some point, we need to draw the line between what is acceptable in a debate and what is not. I should also point out that this post brought up many irrelevant points.

    Regards,
    Last edited by Hitai de Bodemloze; October 13, 2018 at 07:54 AM.

  2. #2
    Aikanár's Avatar no vaseline
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    Default Re: [2018-XXVI] [Citizen Referral] Elfdude

    Gentlemen, how about this one, has a defense been requested?


    Son of Louis Lux, brother of MaxMazi, father of Squeaks, Makrell, Kaiser Leonidas, Iskar, Neadal, Sheridan, Bercor and HigoChumbo, house of Siblesz

    Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts.

  3. #3
    Aikanár's Avatar no vaseline
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    Default Re: [2018-XXVI] [Citizen Referral] Elfdude

    Defense provided:

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfdude
    The initial Charges are based on a nebulous concept that my decision was based on desire to remove Pike's Curatorship. This is a false premise and the reality here was whether or not other behavior unbecoming a citizen should be factored into the decision and whether or not the harshness of Pike's staff removal was to be factored in. Through my decision making process and in discussing the concept with others I came to two decisions on this.

    Since the referral is about unbecoming behavior in order to judge the appropriateness of it I needed to decide if I found Pike's behavior unbecoming. I used several metrics to discuss this and received some response in the threads in question but most of the discussion occurred over steam.

    Firstly, Pike's status as a staff member did subject him to a higher standard of examination. People in power inevitably can make the same mistakes as those without and the outcomes and damages of those mistakes are invariably worse due to their power. I felt that Pike's comments in several threads were unbecoming to the extreme of a curator who I felt should remain impartial and stick to fact based statements if any. While I think it's fine for the curator to have a vote and think everyone should it's telling to me when there's post after post after post trying to push a point not just on me but on every potential person reading the thread.

    Secondly, even if I were to cut out Pike's status as an officer I found his behavior still lacking, it's dismissive and attacking and then feins ignorance when cornered. This is a similar cycle of responses that many have encountered and it's not just me. Furthermore Pike regularly brags about his status, his history, his laurels as justification that his opinion is gospel. This is dangerous for a citizen but when I combine it with the first metric it's abhorent.

    Thirdly, i was worried that a censure had the unintentional effect of stripping curatorship from someone, while I consider the behavior unbecoming in the extreme I'm not sure that it rises to the level of a VoNC although I was seriously considering it when the referral came up. Hitai's guidance however led me to believe that I should base this decision not on the impact of it but rather on the merits of the decision itself which is what I did.

    The last charge they make is that another post (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post15672767) is irrelevant and off-topic. I think that's entirely in the eye of the beholder. I do believe that in order to judge the appropriateness of the decision I had to judge the merits of the claims. I found no reason to build an imaginary wall between considerations when the decision was in regards to someone's behavior which can both include a single action or a preponderance of such actions. I even asked others for their input on it.

    I hesitate to look at something from the perspective of an single instance but I also find the idea that a charger must exhaustively comb through every instance to be ridiculous. The purpose of a discussion is that more info which may be considered relevant can be brought to bear and I see no good reason to consider the posts I made irrelevant other than the flavor of preference. In which case, I can appreciate that they did not like my flavor but I do not consider it unbecoming of a citizen.


    Son of Louis Lux, brother of MaxMazi, father of Squeaks, Makrell, Kaiser Leonidas, Iskar, Neadal, Sheridan, Bercor and HigoChumbo, house of Siblesz

    Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts.

  4. #4
    Veteraan's Avatar TATW Local Moderator
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    Default Re: [2018-XXVI] [Citizen Referral] Elfdude

    Having read true this, I am leaning to dismiss.

    Also I must stress that this is a vote on the Triumvirate's decision of further action against PikeStance, not whether or not this decision should cost him the office of Curator. The latter is a Constitutional matter
    I interpret this as a reminder to all about what we would be voting about, not a constraint on what we personally wanted to contribute to the discussion. There is no "second warning" in the thread itself about undesirable content having been posted.

    Citizenised by Shankbot - Patron of b0Gia - House de Bodemloze

  5. #5
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: [2018-XXVI] [Citizen Referral] Elfdude

    regards to opposition towards Irontaino's application
    I take issue with this statement by Elfdude. Vote vindictiveness is an extremely behavior for a citizen but censure is a bit much just for that. I think the curator should issue a friendly reminder to the curia at large that opposition in a proposal is not personal and revenge voting is a scummy thing to do.


    Dismiss.
    Under the patronage of Pie the Inkster Click here to find a hidden gem on the forum!


  6. #6
    Veteraan's Avatar TATW Local Moderator
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    Default Re: [2018-XXVI] [Citizen Referral] Elfdude

    I have no objection about asking the Curator to issue a friendly reminder as you suggested.

    Dismiss and a message to Elfdude it should be then.

    Citizenised by Shankbot - Patron of b0Gia - House de Bodemloze

  7. #7
    General Brewster's Avatar The Flying Dutchman
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    Default Re: [2018-XXVI] [Citizen Referral] Elfdude

    Poll added. If either of you would be so kind to provide such a reminder

  8. #8
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: [2018-XXVI] [Citizen Referral] Elfdude

    I don't think a message to Elf is necessary since he ca see this. A general message by the elected curator to all citizens in the curia is however very necessary. There has been a marked increase in this kind of thinking lately.
    Under the patronage of Pie the Inkster Click here to find a hidden gem on the forum!


  9. #9
    General Brewster's Avatar The Flying Dutchman
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    Default Re: [2018-XXVI] [Citizen Referral] Elfdude

    Alright.

    Case dismissed, archived publicly.
    Last edited by General Brewster; November 08, 2018 at 07:03 PM. Reason: Archivation added.

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