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Thread: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Grand Principality of Serbia (Complete)

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  1. #1
    Ltd.'s Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Grand Principality of Serbia (Complete)

    I will add a militia spear unit for all three tiers. Militia are not necessarily cannon fodder either, and spearmen in general even less so.
    Btw spearmen with shields in general are the best form of defense not the long spears
    Last edited by Ltd.; October 14, 2018 at 05:48 AM.

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    Matthæus's Avatar Knez Bribirski
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Grand Principality of Serbia (Complete)

    I hope "Bosnian Vlastela" will be AOR unit too so others can recruit them if control right provinces

  3. #3

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Grand Principality of Serbia (Complete)

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthæus View Post
    I hope "Bosnian Vlastela" will be AOR unit too so others can recruit them if control right provinces

    Is there a thread where AoR units have been discussed already or is that still to come?

    How terrible it must be to face us; the sons of the wolf and the bear! Even now fear works in the bowels of our foes! I do not fight with a cool head today, I admit it. My eyes see only a red mist. I do not want them to run from battle, I want their heads on our pikes by evening! We go now to our bloody business!

  4. #4

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Grand Principality of Serbia (Complete)

    Quote Originally Posted by keksimir View Post
    Is there a thread where AoR units have been discussed already or is that still to come?
    So far, no overarching thread yet. There are some in random factional threads, but its down to the whim of factional developers.

    Only naval AoR planning have definite organized plotting (because its not worked by multiple devs)

  5. #5

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Grand Principality of Serbia (Complete)

    Quote Originally Posted by You_Guess_Who View Post
    So far, no overarching thread yet. There are some in random factional threads, but its down to the whim of factional developers.

    Only naval AoR planning have definite organized plotting (because its not worked by multiple devs)

    Understandable. With all the work that is to be done, you don't have the time for such things yet. Will there be a thread like that in the future, i imagine yes at some point?
    Do you have a general idea on the units or is it still not in the planing stage at this point.

    How terrible it must be to face us; the sons of the wolf and the bear! Even now fear works in the bowels of our foes! I do not fight with a cool head today, I admit it. My eyes see only a red mist. I do not want them to run from battle, I want their heads on our pikes by evening! We go now to our bloody business!

  6. #6
    Ltd.'s Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Grand Principality of Serbia (Complete)

    It mainly depends on the roster developer what AOR units he feels are worth adding. Unless they are totally out of place, they make it into the mod. We can discuss specifics once we got the core units set up. The status in the custom battle does not necessarily reflect the campaign availability either. We still have to decide on AOR and mercenary units in general.

    Btw, I added a militia spearmen unit to all 3 tiers

  7. #7

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Grand Principality of Serbia (Complete)

    The Militia units look great. Love the beards

    How terrible it must be to face us; the sons of the wolf and the bear! Even now fear works in the bowels of our foes! I do not fight with a cool head today, I admit it. My eyes see only a red mist. I do not want them to run from battle, I want their heads on our pikes by evening! We go now to our bloody business!

  8. #8
    Matthæus's Avatar Knez Bribirski
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Grand Principality of Serbia (Complete)

    Yeah, militia is excellent.

    I noted changes on Vlastelčići too, with helmets they look even better than before.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Grand Principality of Serbia (Complete)

    My God, those shields are amazing on the cav units.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Grand Principality of Serbia (Complete)

    Personally, the tier 2 Vlastela are my favorite. The peacock helmets look incredible. The shield textures are awesome and they reflect the noble houses that existed in the day. I just wish that the tier 3 Despot had some type of crown on his head to distinguish him from the other horsemen. I mean at that point you should have an empire in your hands.

    How terrible it must be to face us; the sons of the wolf and the bear! Even now fear works in the bowels of our foes! I do not fight with a cool head today, I admit it. My eyes see only a red mist. I do not want them to run from battle, I want their heads on our pikes by evening! We go now to our bloody business!

  11. #11
    Matthæus's Avatar Knez Bribirski
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Grand Principality of Serbia (Complete)

    I have some of the descriptions ready.

    What do you think ?
    (grammar errors are to be expected )



    Peasant Bowmen
    “Zamanička vojska” is a term for levy army that was raised in case of grave danger. Depending on circumstances it could be raised in the whole state or locally. Scale of the mobilization depended on level of danger: every body-able man, one man per every house, or per five houses. Levies had to cover the expenses, and provide their own equipment and weapons. Most of them fought as unarmored bowmen, their primary weapon being an yew short-bow with range of about 200 meters. Overall these men weren't trained, equipped or reliable enough for real war.

    Frontiersmen
    Lands on the state borders called krajište (pronounced krayishte), were for better defense were organized into special military districts under command of king’s lieutenants - border lords. Men of border-lord (krajišnici) took care of travelers and merchants safety, and chased away bandits and raiders. They would also make incursions in enemy territory when ordered. Krajišnici wore no armor, they were masters of disguise and ambushes. Byzantines soon learned to fear those men “who darted froth behind trees and rocks like devils out of the earth”. Frontiersmen weapons consisted from bows, axes and spears.

    Archers
    Archery had long tradition is Serbia, even before their settlement in the Balkans. Later, under Byzantine and Cuman influence, more powerful composite bows were adopted, although in limited quantity. Even with appearance of crossbows and gunpowder in 14th and 15th century, bows remained important weapon in Serbian arsenal.
    These bowmen are servants of nobles, and have some military experience decent equipment: helmet, padded, mail or lamellar shirt. In close combat, if it comes to that, they will defend themselves with axes and an shield.

    Militia Spearmen
    Gradobljudenije was one of duties of dependent population which involved guarding of the city, that is, securing the people for the city garrison, both in war and in peacetime conditions. This obligation had to be carried out both by the urban population and the inhabitants of the surrounding district. It was especially enforced in border or recently conquered territories.
    While these lightly equipped spearmen do not lack motivation to protect their city, they are amateurs in the art of war. Thus it is wise to leave them to defensive roles.

    Vojnici Spearmen
    Vojnici (pronounced Voynici) which can be literally translated as “soldiers”, were a class of smallholders in medieval Serbia. According to law, every man who was in possession of hereditary freehold land (baština) was required to attend the army. Ignoring the call to arms meant risk of confiscation of the property. At first voynici were considered a separate class - not equal to nobles. Later the difference between them and low nobility blurred.
    Vojnici fought on foot as armored spearmen, and were the backbone of infantry line.

    Vlastelčići
    Vlastelčići were numerous class of lower nobles, and their name can be literally translated as “small nobles”. They possessed smaller amount of land (baština), and as landowners Vlastelčići were obliged to serve in the army.
    While they were often considered to be the “middle class”, between upper class-peasants and high nobility (vlastela), their legal position was close to proper nobility. For these men proper warhorses were too expensive, and lower nobility often fought on foot. Their weapons included axes, swords, sabers and maces.

    Pronijari lancers
    Pronija (pronounced Pronya) is type of conditional land that the ruler shared with a person (Pronijar), which in turn had to perform military service. This institution of Byzantine origin appears in Serbia in 14th century. Land is not automatically hereditary, and could be taken away at any time, which makes Pronijar eager to prove his value as an soldier. To improve country's defensive capability, Despots tried several times to increase amount of Pronija lands.
    Pronijari fought as armored cavalry lancers, and by 15th century they were equipped in western European fashion. Most popular secondary weapon was the mace, which is no surprise. It was the weapon of choice of Marko Kraljević, the greatest hero in the Balkans.

    Vlastela
    Vlastela were high feudal nobility which ruled over large swaths of land, or even whole provinces (either hereditary as baština or conditionally as pronija). War was personal obligation of noble, and rich and powerful would bring along their large entourage.
    Dressed fine armor (often imported from famous workshops of Italy), Vlastela fought as heavy armored cavalry lancers.
    Charge of Serbian heavy cavalry was fearsome, and it could decide the outcome of the battle. Ironically some of their greatest military feats were in Ottoman service; chief example being defeat of the great crusade at Nicopolis in 1396.
    As last Serbian Tsar Urosh “the weak” discovered, vlastela - if left unchecked, could become a threat to their own state too. Their factionalism, personal rivalry and ambition could do as much damage as enemy armies. Don’t be like Urosh !

    Gussars (Gusari)
    Ottoman raiding tactics forced Serbs to put more emphasis on light cavalry. In 15th century appeared hussars - regiments of light horseman, experts in raiding an counter raiding.
    Word hussar probably originates from Serbian gusar which means pirate, marauder.
    Many gusars were refugees from Ottoman onslaught. Having lost their land they turned to military profession as source of income, becoming well regarded mercenaries in Hungary, Poland and beyond. Concept proved successful and was copied by many.
    Gusars used specially produced long, but lightweight, lance to great advantage. It gave them greater reach than Turkish light lancers, their main opponents. Only protection of hussar was large shield, since all armor was sacrificed for speed.
    Last edited by Matthæus; October 23, 2018 at 12:21 PM.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Grand Principality of Serbia (Complete)

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthæus View Post
    I have some of the descriptions ready.

    What do you think ?
    Excellent. Waiting for more unit descriptions. Ltd will add an 2h Axe Vojnici for T1, but the Vojnici Spear desc will do.

  13. #13
    Matthæus's Avatar Knez Bribirski
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Grand Principality of Serbia (Complete)

    Quote Originally Posted by You_Guess_Who View Post
    Excellent. Waiting for more unit descriptions. Ltd will add an 2h Axe Vojnici for T1, but the Vojnici Spear desc will do.
    I will add a bit different descr for Vojnici axeman, no problem.

    Tell me,
    early / high / late version of unit (for example Vlastela (tier 1), Vlastela (tier 2)) use the same or different descriptions ?

    I guess for most cases only one description for all versions is enough,
    but in some cases I could make different descriptions (if equipment, purpose of unit organisation changed significantly).

  14. #14

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Grand Principality of Serbia (Complete)

    Do the axemen seem a little low res compared to the other units or is it just me?

    How terrible it must be to face us; the sons of the wolf and the bear! Even now fear works in the bowels of our foes! I do not fight with a cool head today, I admit it. My eyes see only a red mist. I do not want them to run from battle, I want their heads on our pikes by evening! We go now to our bloody business!

  15. #15

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Grand Principality of Serbia (Complete)

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthæus View Post
    I will add a bit different descr for Vojnici axeman, no problem.

    Tell me,
    early / high / late version of unit (for example Vlastela (tier 1), Vlastela (tier 2)) use the same or different descriptions ?

    I guess for most cases only one description for all versions is enough,
    but in some cases I could make different descriptions (if equipment, purpose of unit organisation changed significantly).
    Nah, the Vojnici is fine. The same class of soldiers, just with different weapons.
    Using one description for all tiers of a unit is sufficient, unless there's a drastic change in the way they fight, or a change of name.
    The Pronijar desc should explain more about bastina or bastinik due to its T1 level is named Bastinik Lancers - or make a separate desc for them. Make one for the German MAA serving under Serbia too
    The Bosnian Vlastela deserves their own desc, as the only finished Bosnian unit in the mod.
    Give description on the shift of how the Serbian Monarchs style themselves, from Grand Prince>King>Emperor>Despot

  16. #16
    Matthæus's Avatar Knez Bribirski
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Grand Principality of Serbia (Complete)

    Descriptions part II.

    Crossbowmen

    Crossbows started to appear in Serbia armies during the 14th century, anperiod of gradual westernization of the army. They have pros and cons compared to bows: shorter range, longer reload time, but greater armor penetration. Also, crossbow requires significantly shorter training time to master. In Serbian armies crossbowmen continued to be outnumbered by the bowmen, even in late medieval period.
    These men were paid regulars with plenty of military experience. Shields are not used and their mail and brigandine armors are only protection. Crossbowmen’s secondary weapon of choice is usually sabre, but if has to use it - battle is not going as planned.

    Ragusan cakoni
    In addition to merchant navy, Republic of Ragusa used network of trade caravans to reach deep into Balkans. Of special interest to the republic were mining cities in Serbia where colonies of Ragusan merchants settled. With gold and silver from those mines Serbs would pay for the goods that were brought in. Especially profitable was arms trade, in 14 and 15th century Ragusans supplied whole western Balkans with firearms, cannons and gunpowder from their own manufactories.
    According to local law Ragusans who owned land in Serbia had to participate in garrison duty. Ones that weren’t landowners could also help - which they often did. After all, too much money was at stake !
    Historically Ragusan merchants fought in siege of Novo Brdo along with its Serbian garrison. Ottomans managed to capture the town in 1441. after two years of heroic resistance.

    Handgunners

    First handguns appeared in Serbia in the beginning of the 15 century. Rich gold and silver mines enabled Despots to buy cutting-edge technology and hire experts to wield it.
    At this stage, however, handguns (Serbian - puška) made more of morale than physical damage. They were hard to aim precisely and had limited range ( but if target was hit - shot would go through almost any armor ). However- thundering sounds, violent flashes, and awful smells would scare men and horses alike.
    These men are professional soldiers. Most of them are locals, but some are mercenaries from Hungary. Shields are not used and their mail and brigandine armors are only protection. Their secondary weapon of choice is usually sabre, but if it has to be used - battle is not going well.


    Vojnici Axemen
    Vojnici (pronounced Voynici) which can be literally translated as “soldiers”, were a class of smallholders in medieval Serbia. According to law, every man who was in possession of hereditary freehold land (baština) was required to attend the army. Ignoring the call to arms meant risk of confiscation of the property. At first voynici were considered a separate class - not equal to nobles. Later the difference between them and low nobility blurred.
    Two handed axes remained a popular weapon in Serbia until second part of 15th century - for far longer than in the west. It was vicious weapon, capable of chopping man’s limbs (or head !) cleanly off. But it also makes soldier carrying it vulnerable to arrows - since booth hands are needed to wield the axe, shield is not carried.

    Baštinik lancers
    Baštinici were fundament of serbian feudal army, as military service was required from all body-able landowners. Baštinik was, in difference to pronijar, in complete ownership of his land; Baština was hereditary freehold land, and it could be taken from him only in case of treason.
    Baštinici fought as medium cavalry, armed with lances and swords. Their arms and equipment show strong Byzantine influence but were locally produced. Their mounts are not destriers but a breed of Balkan mountain horse. Balkan mountain horses are smaller than proper warhorses, but extremely tough and resistant.
    Baštinici were good, experienced troops, even if somewhat slow to mobilize and unwilling to fight far outside borders. However, in late medieval period Serbian Despots would see pronija lands as more reliable source of troops and try to increase it at the expense of baština.

    Grand Prince

    Grand princes ruled Serbia from 1091–1217, most of the time as Byzantine vassals. But by 1204. empire was on its knees after losing its capital Constantinople and most several provinces to crusaders. Byzantine misfortune meant independence for the Serbs.
    Grand prince (Veliki Župan) was overall military commander, but his power was limited by the nobles. For example he did not have authority to raise army without approval of assembly (Sabor). He was expected to lead the army personally, and nobility had issues with accepting authority of another appointed commander.
    Veliki Župan was followed by nobles of the court, and these were experienced warriors trained from young age. Ruler and his retinue had best armors available; lamellar corselet over mail shirt and padded gambeson underneath. Not even a heavy lance could go trough !

    King
    Grand principality of Serbia was elevated to kingdom in 1217 when Stefan Nemanjić was crowned by the Papal legate (!) which did not go well with local Orthodox clergy.
    By 14th century king’s authority increased: no longer was approval of assembly needed for mobilisation. For a brief moment Serbian rulers were even proclaimed Tsars “of Serbs and Romans” and tried to establish an empire.
    King of Serbia (Kralj) was accompanied into battle by nobles (vlastela) of the court and the foreign mercenary guard. Mercenaries, as seasoned soldiers, had a secondary role was as tutors to younger nobles. For this purpose special school was founded at ruler’s court.
    King and his retinue had their armor made by best Italian craftsmen. In 14th century this meant coat-of-plates vest, mails hauberk, gauntlets and leg armor. Helmets were mostly bascinets of kettle-hats

    Despot
    After disastrous Ottoman defeat at Ankara in 1402. Serbia was independent once again. As sign of his new status knez Stefan Lazarević received title of Despot from Byzantine emperor. Originally it was a senior Byzantine court title, or title of ruler of vassal state, but this time empire had no control or influence over Serbia.
    Despots managed to break power of the high nobility (vlastela) - their power was now unquestioned. Financed by the rich gold and silver mines, state was consolidated, and military capabilities increased.
    By 15th century Hungary became main source of inspiration on military matters. Despot’s guards, all professional soldiers and seasoned veterans, wore full plate armor and were almost indistinguishable from Hungarian knights.


    -------------------------------

    Halberdiers, Germans and Bosnians are missing (but not forgotten !).
    Croatian cavalry will be covered as part of Croatian rooster.
    Last edited by Matthæus; October 22, 2018 at 03:45 PM.

  17. #17
    Matthæus's Avatar Knez Bribirski
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Grand Principality of Serbia (Complete)

    Descriptions part III


    Cuman Light Horse Archers

    Fleeing the Mongol invasion a group of Cumans found refuge in Hungary, but they weren't greeted with open arms. When their leader was killed in 1241. they emigrated further south.
    In Serbia they found employment in king’s service and became important part of his “Oriental mercenaries”. Cuman contingent numbered up to 2,000 cavalrymen - loyal to king’s person and serving as his bodyguards.
    These steppe horse-archers were feared warriors which won civil-wars, quelled rebellions, defeated Latins at Pelagonia and Turks at Gallipoli.
    But not all was well between Serb employers and those “heathens” occasionally burned down holy places and churches.
    Their story ends in 14th century when Byzantine emperor asked king of Serbia to lend Cumans to him for a quick job… and forgot to ever return them.

    German man-at-arms
    German and latin mercenaries started to appear in Serbian armies at the beginning of 14th century. Several companies of Germans were employed over the decades.
    Best known of them was the contingent of mercenaries from Austria and Slovenia under command of captain Palman from Letinberch which became a elite bodyguard troop of Tsar Stefan Dušan.
    At least 300 knights and man-at-arms were permanently attached to his court, always at disposal.
    German men-at-arms fought as heavily armored cavalry, but if needed, on foot as well. Byzantines spoke with envy of these heavy armored men of “exceptional strength and best training”.
    Indeed, these well organized and trained mercenaries played a prominent role in the Serbian victories of the period.


    Bosnian Vlastela
    Protected by inaccessible terrain and thick castle walls, high landowning nobility of were the true masters of Bosnia. No king could be appointed without their support, or retain the throne without their obedience. Ever more troubling, a lot of Bosnian nobles were members of local “Bosnian church” which was seen as heretical to both Catholic and Orthodox clergy. Several crusades were aimed at its destruction, none successful.
    14th century Bosnia had its own arms production, but these wealthy men wanted fine Italian of German armors imported via Dalmatian ports. Therefore their arms and equipment are almost “western” in appearance.
    In battle they fought as proper knights - with lances and swords.



    PS
    damn, I forgot about those halberds...
    *edit... I don't have anything about halberds except some existed... so some generic text can be used.
    Last edited by Matthæus; October 23, 2018 at 12:55 PM.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Grand Principality of Serbia (Complete)


    Great work to all from the team.
    Lot of attention to details and impressive roster if they could gather all with one goal maybe they could have made bigger difference.

    Into the fires of battle, unto the anvil of war!

  19. #19

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Grand Principality of Serbia (Complete)

    Amazing work, well done!

  20. #20

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Grand Principality of Serbia (Complete)

    Hello all again, it is I , the great pain the ass again. I had an interesting idea, well... i dont know if it is interesting that much but... Considering that Armenians fought on the side of the Serbs during the battle of Kosovo. Would it be possible to add an Armenian unit in the roster? At least when it comes to custom games? Armenians were a small part of the Ottoman Turkish army when they invaded Serbia prior to the Battle of Kosovo 1389. However upon hearing that they would attack a Christian people, they fled the Ottomans to the other side to fight alongside the Serbs. After the battle, the surviving Armenians settled in the hills of Sokobanja where they built Jermenčić Monastery. Would it be impossible to add such a unit or would you even consider bothering since it is not exactly THAT important? This troop would resemble a janissary unit i suppose... also there were Hospitaler Knights present led by John of Palisna. Would it be possible to add these units in custom battles?

    How terrible it must be to face us; the sons of the wolf and the bear! Even now fear works in the bowels of our foes! I do not fight with a cool head today, I admit it. My eyes see only a red mist. I do not want them to run from battle, I want their heads on our pikes by evening! We go now to our bloody business!

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