AI faction and rebels in a perpetual standoff

[Septentrionalis]

I am playing as Rome and the Carthaginians hold Corsica. At one point, a large Keltoi rebel force with a leader appeared on the island, to which Carthage reacted by sending an army to meet them. However, neither army ever attacked but instead keep building up their forces in the countryside. It must have been going on for something like a hundred turns. At the moment Carthaginians have a full stack and the Keltoi two full stacks with multiple leaders. They seem to be engaged in a never-ending arms race, and it will already at this point take considerable effort to take the island assuming that both will be hostile to us. Have you had experience with something similar and do you know of a way to break the deadlock?

[z3n]

That's too funny.

Either something is going extremely wrong with the campaign script which is doing the swap between aggressive and peaceful AI (which originally I never accounted for -- a campaign script flipping things on and off) or it's some baseline behaviour that is hardcoded.


If you want you can try a version of the CAI that I created for DaC but will still be subject to the issues that EB2 presents with the campaign script behavior. And see if that fixes it.


I had an absolute blast during my DaC playthrough but they do things differently with the campaign script, and try not to handicap it as much as EB2 has.

[will1901]

I notice this every game around Syracuse. Carthigians have a stack and the rebels have two. They seem to just dance around and never engage eachother. This was annoying for me as I was playing as Epirus and was waiting to send an army to mop up what was left of those battles.

[Kull]

I notice this every game around Syracuse. Carthigians have a stack and the rebels have two. They seem to just dance around and never engage eachother. This was annoying for me as I was playing as Epirus and was waiting to send an army to mop up what was left of those battles.

That's by design. Syracuse starts off with large stacks of rebels otherwise the AI gobbles it up immediately. Eventually they get worn down, though.

As for the Corsica situation, that's unlikely to have anything to do with the Campaign AI script (IMO). It's a single island province, historically troublesome (thus more likely to spawn rebels), and the AI may have difficulty eliminating them (although not in all cases, or we'd have had a lot more reports about that). Frankly I don't see that as a problem since the AI-Carthaginians still maintain control of the province, and it makes conquest by the human player that much harder.

[Septentrionalis]

If you want you can try a version of the CAI that I created for DaC but will still be subject to the issues that EB2 presents with the campaign script behavior. And see if that fixes it.

I had an absolute blast during my DaC playthrough but they do things differently with the campaign script, and try not to handicap it as much as EB2 has.

Sounds interesting! How does it change the game in very general terms? I understand that DaC is some sort of full mod, but I guess the AI element can be used separately, then. Maybe I should try it out in a new campaign altogether.

I notice this every game around Syracuse. Carthigians have a stack and the rebels have two. They seem to just dance around and never engage eachother. This was annoying for me as I was playing as Epirus and was waiting to send an army to mop up what was left of those battles.

"Dance around" describes well how it was for me in the beginning. Every turn, the Carthaginians would scurry off to their city and immediately get back with recent reinforcements. Now they just stay there and wait for reinforcements.

As for the Corsica situation, that's unlikely to have anything to do with the Campaign AI script (IMO). It's a single island province, historically troublesome (thus more likely to spawn rebels), and the AI may have difficulty eliminating them (although not in all cases, or we'd have had a lot more reports about that). Frankly I don't see that as a problem since the AI-Carthaginians still maintain control of the province, and it makes conquest by the human player that much harder.

If that is the case, I am happy with it. What makes me suspect a bug though is that the rebels have been stronger than the Carthaginians all along yet they do not engage.

[z3n]

Yep the AI element is seperate and is probably save game compatible. Give it a try and see what happens.

[Kull]

If that is the case, I am happy with it. What makes me suspect a bug though is that the rebels have been stronger than the Carthaginians all along yet they do not engage.

That is not a bug (or at least it's not one we can control). In general, the rebels tend to be passive in human-controlled provinces but aggressive in rebel-owned ones.

[UK730]

That is not a bug (or at least it's not one we can control). In general, the rebels tend to be passive in human-controlled provinces but aggressive in rebel-owned ones.

Can that be changed like AI behavior for normal factions?

[Kull]

Can that be changed like AI behavior for normal factions?

If we could, we would. It's either something hardcoded or it's controlled by settings we're not aware of.

[z3n]

If we could, we would. It's either something hardcoded or it's controlled by settings we're not aware of.

It's hard-coded in the same way 30 factions is hard coded. (rebels don't count)

We talked about making the 30th faction slot a pseudo rebel faction in order to introduce better behaviour for rebel armies (more realistic by far) but the proposal never got anywhere.


Rebel behavior was hard coded in this way to simulate bandit spawns / pirates and provide a way for AI factions with only one settlement to expand successfully.

[z3n]

Sounds interesting! How does it change the game in very general terms? I understand that DaC is some sort of full mod, but I guess the AI element can be used separately, then. Maybe I should try it out in a new campaign altogether.

Basically it changes AI behavior, and that's it.

[BailianSteel]

I am playing as Rome and the Carthaginians hold Corsica. At one point, a large Keltoi rebel force with a leader appeared on the island, to which Carthage reacted by sending an army to meet them. However, neither army ever attacked but instead keep building up their forces in the countryside. It must have been going on for something like a hundred turns. At the moment Carthaginians have a full stack and the Keltoi two full stacks with multiple leaders. They seem to be engaged in a never-ending arms race, and it will already at this point take considerable effort to take the island assuming that both will be hostile to us. Have you had experience with something similar and do you know of a way to break the deadlock?

I've seen something like this before, mostly in 2.2b, but also concerning Alalia. When a faction would be reduced to just Rhodos in 2.2b (I've seen Koinon and Pergamon in this state,) it would turtle and produce an absurd number of armies on it, literally covering the puny island with soldiers. Inevitably some of these soldiers rebelled, and it took some time for that faction to clear the rebels out.

In my most recent playthrough as Qarth Hadast, I lost Corsim rather quickly to the Romani. In time they lost it to rebellion. At one point the Romani landed a force to try and reclaim Corsim, but engaged in war with the Gauls, so they had a standoff. Eventually the Romani backed down and sent this force elsewhere.

In both cases I mostly stood by and watched, and in your shoes I would do the same here. Corsica is not an amazingly valuable province, if I were to bother with it I would use it as a stepping stone or an extra security measure for the more valuable Sardinia (I might also eliminate it to prevent the possibility of the Carthaginians making Corsica their capital.) If I was inclined to intervene, my plan would be to put a general with Night Attack capabilities in to try and take out one of the Corsican stacks. That might even the odds enough for the Qarthadastim to finish it (once you extricate your force, of course,) though I wouldn't put much stock in that happening. There are two big risks with this plan aside from the stalemate still being in place. One is that the Corsicans or Qarthadastim might simply turn on your force if it's weakened enough. The other is that the Corsicans might have Night Attack capabilities of their own, rendering the plan moot.

I notice this every game around Syracuse. Carthigians have a stack and the rebels have two. They seem to just dance around and never engage eachother. This was annoying for me as I was playing as Epirus and was waiting to send an army to mop up what was left of those battles.

That's to be expected. Syracuse isn't some tribe, they've slugged it out with the Qarthadastim in the past and played a role in the first two Punic Wars. And you (as Pyrrhos) angered them to revolt only a few years ago, possibly earlier. They'll be expecting such a plan from you.

[Septentrionalis]

I've seen something like this before, mostly in 2.2b, but also concerning Alalia. When a faction would be reduced to just Rhodos in 2.2b (I've seen Koinon and Pergamon in this state,) it would turtle and produce an absurd number of armies on it, literally covering the puny island with soldiers. Inevitably some of these soldiers rebelled, and it took some time for that faction to clear the rebels out.

In my most recent playthrough as Qarth Hadast, I lost Corsim rather quickly to the Romani. In time they lost it to rebellion. At one point the Romani landed a force to try and reclaim Corsim, but engaged in war with the Gauls, so they had a standoff. Eventually the Romani backed down and sent this force elsewhere.

In both cases I mostly stood by and watched, and in your shoes I would do the same here. Corsica is not an amazingly valuable province, if I were to bother with it I would use it as a stepping stone or an extra security measure for the more valuable Sardinia (I might also eliminate it to prevent the possibility of the Carthaginians making Corsica their capital.) If I was inclined to intervene, my plan would be to put a general with Night Attack capabilities in to try and take out one of the Corsican stacks. That might even the odds enough for the Qarthadastim to finish it (once you extricate your force, of course,) though I wouldn't put much stock in that happening. There are two big risks with this plan aside from the stalemate still being in place. One is that the Corsicans or Qarthadastim might simply turn on your force if it's weakened enough. The other is that the Corsicans might have Night Attack capabilities of their own, rendering the plan moot.

Thanks for sharing and the suggestions. I guess I will leave it alone for now and see if any of those cowboys muster up the courage for a fight among themselves. It is just so conveniently and concerningly close to Rome.

[Septentrionalis]

I guess I will leave it alone for now and see if any of those cowboys muster up the courage for a fight among themselves.

They did not. It has been like that for decades in Corsica. Now I also see the same thing happening all over the map. Mutually hostile AI factions, rebels and actual factions alike, keep concentrating stacks and reinforcing them in big bunches, and no one is taking the initiative to offer battle. I have agents around to keep an eye on what goes on, but, during the AI turn, I no longer see any battles; just units bunching up in clusters in a perpetual stalemate.

Have you had this? It feels like something that could conceivably break the game.

[tentaku]

I have seen this as well, also on corsica, carthage has a stack, rebel has a stack, neither side making a move against each other, and the land is getting HEAVILY devastated, like 1/3 of the island is burnt out. And it went on for at least 10~20 turns and I lost track of it.

[Septentrionalis]

And it went on for at least 10~20 turns and I lost track of it.

For me, it has been going on for about 200 turns. The guys on both sides must be getting old and pretty tired of the great outdoors by now.