A New Unit for Medewi

[Dardo21]

I'll forward it to the devs forum, not really an expert myself.

[Livin La Vida Loca]

Ardiaei have thureos and thorax troops though?
I don't really know how Colchis could reflect like...Georgian influence? Same question stands for Kartli with their neighbors

[Dresden]

Not every faction needs reforms or a robust roster. Adding a couple units here and there to flesh things out is fine, but making them all more Hellenized would be the opposite of what we usually try to do. Every roster ending up with various copy versions of units is our nightmare scenario, that is why a lot of factions have limited rosters.

[Cynoscephalae]

I just think it is important to stick to history here.

I mean yeah, you could flesh out and make every faction`s roster original and fun, but imo, if it is mostly fantasy units that is a BIG no-go.

It would just ruin immersion so much, that for me it can never be worth it.

[Geffalrus]

Polite disagreement. Why should a faction like Medewi be stuck with a roster based only on its historical confines? Why even bother making them playable if there's no intention of having them grow beyond their geographical origins? All factions should have some reform potential because all factions are intended to be world conquerors. And world conquest involves substantial changes to whatever the starting military may be. Rome conquered and changed. The same would have happened to any other faction.

[Dresden]

Its simply the fact that if we flesh out every roster with similar units then every faction loses their distinct qualities. This will end up being a mod like many others where every faction gets every unit. Some factions have to rely more on AOR units as they expand.

[Geffalrus]

.........you mean like how every faction has cheap spears, peasant skirmishers, and javelin cavalry?

[KAM 2150]

Because almost all cultures had cheap spears, skirmishers and ranged cavlary while not every faction had cataphracts, phalanx and legionnaires.

The day we add fantasy what if reform units to all factions will be the day this mod dies.

[Geffalrus]

Of course they didn't. The Arverni never conquered beyond Gaul, the Ardiaei didn't expand beyond Illyria, Pyrrhus didn't conquer Rome, Carthage never conquered Persia, Colchis was never more than a client kingdom of Kartli, and the Arevaci never crossed the Pyrenees. It's awfully hard to have a historical record for things that never happened. And yet here we have a game where the impossible happens routinely. Boii invasions of Britain, Carthaginian invasions of Greece, Sabean domination of Mesopoamia.

This is already a fantasy game because it allows a faction like Athens to rule the world. Do you really think adding a hellenic peltast reform unit for Medewi is going to kill the mod?

[KAM 2150]

We never said that there will be no new units but we want them to be researched. For example amazing Ahiga found sources for new cavalry unit from that region that used quilted armour for riders and horses, which would be a defo unique unit AND with backing in sources.

[Geffalrus]

That sounds like it will be great. Do you have any sources for the units used by the Medewi Imperial Garrison based in Antioch? What about the Medewi expeditionary force that fought the Romans in Greece?

[♔Greek Strategos♔]

.........you mean like how every faction has cheap spears, peasant skirmishers, and javelin cavalry?

Of course they didn't. The Arverni never conquered beyond Gaul, the Ardiaei didn't expand beyond Illyria, Pyrrhus didn't conquer Rome, Carthage never conquered Persia, Colchis was never more than a client kingdom of Kartli, and the Arevaci never crossed the Pyrenees. It's awfully hard to have a historical record for things that never happened. And yet here we have a game where the impossible happens routinely. Boii invasions of Britain, Carthaginian invasions of Greece, Sabean domination of Mesopoamia.

This is already a fantasy game because it allows a faction like Athens to rule the world. Do you really think adding a hellenic peltast reform unit for Medewi is going to kill the mod?

That sounds like it will be great. Do you have any sources for the units used by the Medewi Imperial Garrison based in Antioch? What about the Medewi expeditionary force that fought the Romans in Greece?

You know you could always mod out anything you don't like instead of posting sarcastic comments about the content we chose to include or not include in the mod, right ? Plus I think you're missing the point here. Dresden and KAM never said we're against unit additions. We're against adding tons of unbalanced and completely ahistorical ones though

[Dresden]

Your sarcasm isn't really helping your argument. Of course the game will veer off history as empires expand in the later game, there is nothing we can do about that. But, I will go back to my original statement that has nothing to do with historical accuracy (although I think sticking to historical sources is important). For gameplay purposes and faction differentiation, we want some rosters to have limitations. Otherwise, where does it end? Watering down rosters to be too similar is opposite to the focus of this mod and we will always stick to our primary goals. There is another popular overhaul mod out there that adds most every unit to every faction for those who prefer something like that, which is fine.

[Geffalrus]

And your argument isn't really helped by painting anyone who suggests units based on a different interpretation of historical sources as supporters of "fantasy" units or making factions bland by giving everyone pikes, cataphracts, and legions.

[Dresden]

And your argument isn't really helped by painting anyone who suggests units based on a different interpretation of historical sources as supporters of "fantasy" units or making factions bland by giving everyone pikes, cataphracts, and legions.

I never made that argument, once again you are ignoring my main point about gameplay and faction differentiation. You are conflating my argument with KAMs. As I said twice already, leaving the historical argument aside there are other reasons we have limited rosters. You can make an argument for most factions in the game to have some more "what if" style units but that is how we quickly get to rosters that have no unique qualities whatsoever.

In terms of that historical argument, if there are sources to interpret then that is fine. KAM was arguing against adding units just for the sake of it and creating reforms/new units without any sources simply because it is something that could happen in the campaign (i.e. a faction running up against a Greek culture).

[Jake Armitage]

It is personally quite interesting to keep reading these "debating" posts while I don't have any idea about who the hell these Medewi are.

[Livin La Vida Loca]

Medewi are currently labeled Kush with English faction names, and o assume they're still called Meroe in stock DEI faction names. In any case, I would have to say that going all what-if with factions should probably be avoided, with the exception of stuff that makes perfect sense and had at least some sort of precedent, like with spartan thorax swords being included because the spartans made lots of changes to catch up to other greeks.

[Jake Armitage]

Medewi are currently labeled Kush with English faction names, and o assume they're still called Meroe in stock DEI faction names. In any case, I would have to say that going all what-if with factions should probably be avoided, with the exception of stuff that makes perfect sense and had at least some sort of precedent, like with spartan thorax swords being included because the spartans made lots of changes to catch up to other greeks.

Thx

[Samos41]

My favourite part about my medewi campign was that i had to rely on Aor units and mecenaries to balance out my armies. Using tactics i've never used before in battle to overcome superior foes was a great challenge and IMO added to the campaign.

[Geffalrus]

All three of you have now misrepresented my argument as calling for tons of unbalanced and ahistorical units. Nice to see that you all thing so highly of yourselves as the prime arbiters of what is "most historically accurate." A thousand apologies for daring to voice an opinion not endorsed by the oh so mighty developer team.