A New Unit for Medewi

[geala]

You are generally right, but that's not the point here in my opinion. The balance argument can only be valid for unhistorical or highy improbable units. You don't need to give elephants to the Sweboz or remove triarii from the Romans to balance things out.

But for a lightly armored faction which uses javelin armed skimishers and light melee troops already, based in the south of an area occupied by Greeks with Greek units, in a region where mercenaries were recruited by Greeks, denial of a peltast like unit needs more than balancing arguments. A "peltast" is just a man with a shield and javelins, a melee weapon and usually a helmet, the ability to run and throw sticks and go into melee if necessary. The light sword melee troops of the Medewi already carry one javelin, how difficult would it be to realize that taking several javelins with them would be an improvement? It's not like inventing the atomic bomb.

[Cynoscephalae]

The light sword melee troops of the Medewi already carry one javelin, how difficult would it be to realize that taking several javelins with them would be an improvement? It's not like inventing the atomic bomb.

At one point a couple of patches ago, units were reworked, and most of the melee units (not skirmishers) that had 2+ javelins were reworked to have 1 javelin. This considerably weakened them, and while for some units it was justified (as they were overperforming), some were just left struggling (usually the lower quality ones).

Perhaps a general revision of such units (marked as melee in the mod, but were known to use javelins/skirmish irl) could be done, and some of them could get another javelin or even 2 (up to 3)?

The unit that falls on my mind here are the Illyrioi Paraktioi. They seem to be a sort of ambush/skirmish unit, but they also have just 1 javelin (and a slow fire rate, like most/all melee troops with javs). Giving them even 1 extra javelin, and a bit faster rate of fire could make them somewhat useful, unlike they are now.

P.S. There are a lot more units like this.

[Livin La Vida Loca]

Ardiaei kinda need to have their roster looked at in general. The lack of Sica-armed units is especially odd. As for Medewi though, I'm more curious about any possible new archer options for them. They did call Nubia the land of the bow, after all.

[Cynoscephalae]

Ardiaei kinda need to have their roster looked at in general. The lack of Sica-armed units is especially odd.

Oh yeah, I also noticed that, and wanted to reccomend adding some faction based Sica units to them (they already get 1 from the AoR, but that just doesn`t serve it justice).
But that is probably a topic for a separate thread.

[♔Greek Strategos♔]

Ardiaei kinda need to have their roster looked at in general. The lack of Sica-armed units is especially odd. As for Medewi though, I'm more curious about any possible new archer options for them. They did call Nubia the land of the bow, after all.

AFAIK Ardiei have one of the most complete and powerful rosters.

[KAM 2150]

If you take a look at their units, they actually do use Sica For example Illyrian Corsairs have them mixed with regular swords.

[Cynoscephalae]

If you take a look at their units, they actually do use Sica For example Illyrian Corsairs have them mixed with regular swords.

But aren`t Corsairs a fleet-only unit now? I mean besides the general?
Also, I believe that for the units actual combat stats the stat of only 1 (melee) weapon is used?

[Livin La Vida Loca]

It's not that it's incomplete, i guess it just feels a little bit...cluttered? It's probably better just to have more options though, I suppose. I take it back, I guess, although yeah, some sica units would be cool (I know Illyrian corsairs were mentioned but I don't think they can be used as anything but bodyguards and marines, right?

[Samos41]

they have sica-bearers as an ROR unit.

[♔Greek Strategos♔]

It's not that it's incomplete, i guess it just feels a little bit...cluttered? It's probably better just to have more options though, I suppose. I take it back, I guess, although yeah, some sica units would be cool (I know Illyrian corsairs were mentioned but I don't think they can be used as anything but bodyguards and marines, right?

they have sica-bearers as an ROR unit.

Indeed they have.

[Marcelo Soares e Silva]

Who have the more complete rosters? rome?

[ablebodie]

Rome, Carthage, all the Successors, Parthia, Atropatkan, Armenia, Pergamon, Arche Bosporus.

[Livin La Vida Loca]

Another thing, why do so many Medewi units have like, German-tier armor? Were they known to fight with particularly light equipment?

[IngloriousJosh]

Another thing, why do so many Medewi units have like, German-tier armor? Were they known to fight with particularly light equipment?

My understanding is that most soldiers native to a desert were inclined to fight in light armor or their plain clothes due to a combination of poverty/lack of resources and the desert heat. Generally, there was a heavy emphasis on skirmishers and ranged support, and those soldiers also generally wear no or light armor to be more mobile.

As far as their roster being lacking, I would agree, and I would also disagree with the point that faction gameplay is well served by across the board poor quality unit rosters that never improve or become useable. Making a playable faction inherently bad for a challenge just doesn't seem fun to me, especially when you could just as well give them units that are good and let the challenge mode players stick to levy units? Kartli comes to mind as the worst offender, but most desert factions just look like their unit rosters would put me to sleep.

[♔Greek Strategos♔]

My understanding is that most soldiers native to a desert were inclined to fight in light armor or their plain clothes due to a combination of poverty/lack of resources and the desert heat. Generally, there was a heavy emphasis on skirmishers and ranged support, and those soldiers also generally wear no or light armor to be more mobile.

As far as their roster being lacking, I would agree, and I would also disagree with the point that faction gameplay is well served by across the board poor quality unit rosters that never improve or become useable. Making a playable faction inherently bad for a challenge just doesn't seem fun to me, especially when you could just as well give them units that are good and let the challenge mode players stick to levy units? Kartli comes to mind as the worst offender, but most desert factions just look like their unit rosters would put me to sleep.

We don't make factions inherently bad. Some of them could be a little less powerful though.

[Livin La Vida Loca]

It's not even as if there aren't already factions with complete, accurate, but weak rosters. The brittanic factions, the Germans (especially the Lugii), etc.

[Livin La Vida Loca]

I don't think the claim was necessarily that factions are intentionally bad, but rather that factions that feel a bit undercooked compared to ones that have gotten large overhauls are often justified with the logic of "yeah just play them for a challenge", which can be bothersome because it seems to be a response primarily coming from the people who seem to view factions primarily as uh...just something else to conquer as Rome, because Rome is the only faction that actually matters, so who cares if they're underpowered?(you devs never do that, but some regular users seem to have that perspective sometimes)

Just out of curiousity though, what factions do you feel are overpowered?

[Geffalrus]

Here's my two cents on the matter:

One of the major things that sets certain factions apart as more........favored........is the extent to which they have mid/late game reforms. In the original game, this was only Rome because CA made no pretense that anyone but Rome was supposed to be the protagonist of the game. It is what it is. With DeI and other mods, however, we can get some options for other factions to evolve over time. The Thureos Reforms is one of those evolutions. But not every faction has a military/social/political evolution scripted within the game. There are certainly far fewer than can be found in EB2, for example, though part of that is because some of the change over time is now handled by technology research which is............alright I guess.

Why is any of that important? Part of the story of Rome as the protagonist is that as it grows and expands, the social/political/military underpinnings of its power are put under stress and eventually change. The change in the Legion makeup is the most obvious aspect of this. Such stress and changes are natural - and most importantly - ANY faction that rises to power would undergo similar changes. This is where the lack of reforms or military evolution for other factions start to be a problem. EVERY faction should have some demonstration of military change over time because there is no historical precedent for a country's military remaining perfectly static while it conquers the world. The process of massive expansion ALWAYS changes the military makeup of the rising power. Every time. So all factions should have some mechanism to reflect that. This is part of what made vanilla Rome 2 so frustrating to me. If the Ardiaei or the Odryssians conquer the world, their armies should look VERY different than when they started. But that doesn't happen in the base game.

In the case of Medewi, the argument can be made that the faction roster has nothing that corresponds to a military evolution over time. The Medewi military does not change in response to fighting other cultures the same way that Hellenistic armies adopt the Thureos, or Cataphract cavalry, or lance/bow cavalry in the case of Bactria.

I'm not necessarily saying that every faction should have an individually tailored reform script. However, I do think the DeI team should consider including more factions in the Thureos/Thorax Reform scripts to represent certain gradual changes in military tactics that resulted from competition between neighboring military cultures. Diadochi kingdoms incorporate Celtic and Nomadic elements. The Greeks of Hellas incorporate the Macedonian phalanx. The Nabateans become more Hellenized over time and move away from nomad tactics towards heavy infantry. Celtic and Germanic factions incorporate heavy cavalry and more armored soldiers. Balkan factions meld Celtic styles, Greek heavy infantry, and nomadic cavalry traditions. Honestly, changes were less about the Thureos as a technology, and more about the cultural sharing that it represented. That cultural sharing is something that all factions took part in. From Iberia to Bactria, factions changed due to contact with their neighbors and changes in economic prosperity. Buildings and technology already reflect changes in a state's ability to put expensive soldiers on the field - the Global Reforms should handle the exchange of military culture that was occurring at this time.

[Dardo21]

If there's a clear case of a faction deserving units that are reformed over time, then we certainly will consider changing that. But as far as I can see pretty much all factions that you mentioned already have reform units. Another thing worth mentioning is that we do have more faction reforms coming up, but these are long term and dedicated to a specific few factions each time.

[Geffalrus]

If there's a clear case of a faction deserving units that are reformed over time, then we certainly will consider changing that. But as far as I can see pretty much all factions that you mentioned already have reform units. Another thing worth mentioning is that we do have more faction reforms coming up, but these are long term and dedicated to a specific few factions each time.

Here's a short list off the top of my head of factions that could better utilize a reorganization of their roster to reflect cultural military evolution over time:
- Ardiaei
- Colchis
- Kartli
- Medewi (needs evolution to reflect contact with Hellenistic Egypt - Aspis using infantry/cavalry should probably not be available so early, Thureos units should be available, Machimoi pikemen)
- Nabatea (heavy units moved to higher up the tech tree, or locked behind the Thureos Reform)
- Saba (most cavalry and the Thureos unit moved to Thureos Reform, should start with heavy infantry and access better light infantry through increased recruitment of tribal nomads)