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Thread: Why is murder wrong?

  1. #1
    Tiro
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    Default Why is murder wrong?

    I'm almost at 25 posts so let's get this going so I can fix these up. Cell phones are so inconvenient.

    I guarentee everyone one of you has heard it as a child from a teacher from the schools you've gone to. Murder is certainly bad, but for War it is OK, for a soldier to kill is OK. Or something close to that.

    Dante Aligheri sets the worst level of Hell as the place where oath-breakers and betrayers and traitors are sent. If you would sift through, not minding Satan lingering over you, you'd find someone, like Cain from the Bible there.

    So what is suggested is that something more precious than life is taken by murdering people loyal to you, however that transfer of Power goes. Mundanely, what value does life hold when we struggle for Power with eachother?

  2. #2

    Default Re: Why is murder wrong?

    Because it's bad for society for people to kill each other

  3. #3
    MaximiIian's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Why is murder wrong?

    Depends on your perspective. From a worldview that enshrines human life as something with inherent value, like modern human rights law and preceding philosophical underpinnings, the taking of a human life is viewed as something is always a transgression. Context might make that transgression less-bad, but never not-bad. Similar ideas can be found in other moral philosophies that assign inherent values to abstracts like life, liberty, et al.

    On the other hand, a more pragmatist mindset (like mine), might try to sift through human society and history and find the practical reasons why societies throughout human history have forbidden unsanctioned killing. As 95thrifleman pointed out above, most human societies came to the conclusion early on that unregulated killing of each other is just bad for business.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Why is murder wrong?

    The only correct (and coherent) answer is, "Because God says so." Once you take God out of the picture, the foundation for opposition to murder gets shaky, and when the wind eventually blows, all that is not firmly rooted will be overthrown; you'll start to make exceptions for the disabled, the unborn or the "other."

    Only God tells us each human being, no matter the age, gender, ability or tribe, is created with infinite worth. Nietzsche criticizes Christianity precisely for its extreme emphasis on each individual's inalienable and infinite worth:

    “In moving the doctrine of selflessness and love into the foreground, Christianity was in no way establishing the interests of the species as of higher value than the interests of the individual. Its real historical effect remains in precisely the enhancement of egoism, to the extreme of individual immortality. Through Christianity, the individual was made so important, so absolute, that he could no longer be sacrificed: the species endured only through human sacrifice― All 'souls' became equal before God; but this is precisely the most dangerous of possible evaluations! If one regards individuals as equals, one calls the species into question, one encourages a way of life that leads to ruin of the species; Christianity is the counterprinciple to the principle of selection.”
    No Deus, no Imago Dei.

    This is not a pleasant place for the honest atheist to find himself. [Douglas] Murray concludes, with brutal candor, “The more atheists think on these things, the more we may have to accept that the concept of the sanctity of human life is a Judeo-Christian notion which might very easily not survive Judeo-Christian civilisation.” Here he stands, at the end of all things, seeing only three possibilities: to tumble over the cliff’s edge, to sanctify man without sacred tools, or to go “back to faith, whether we like it or not.” ― Esther O'Reilly
    There are no alternatives.

    “For the normative self-understanding of modernity, Christianity has functioned as more than just a precursor or catalyst. Universalistic egalitarianism, from which sprang the ideals of freedom and a collective life in solidarity, the autonomous conduct of life and emancipation, the individual morality of conscience, human rights and democracy, is the direct legacy of the Judaic ethic of justice and the Christian ethic of love. This legacy, substantially unchanged, has been the object of a continual critical reappropriation and reinterpretation. Up to this very day there is no alternative to it. And in light of the current challenges of a post-national constellation, we must draw sustenance now, as in the past, from this substance. Everything else is idle postmodern talk.” ― Jürgen Habermas
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  5. #5

    Default Re: Why is murder wrong?

    Because the law says it is. Murder is a legal term. Legally defined to say that a killing was not socially acceptable.

    In a forum about ethics and morality the proper question is whether certain forms of killing and homicide are murder.
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  6. #6
    Tiro
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    Default Re: Why is murder wrong?

    I like Dante's perspective on fidelity. It leads to the question of strangers among us and who we know. Murder takes a back seat to keeping distance, an artificial distance, between people in your daily dealings.

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    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Why is murder wrong?

    Only God tells us each human being, no matter the age, gender, ability or tribe, is created with infinite worth.
    Too bad about the people in Jericho I guess they did not have infinite worth. Seeing as god is a big fan blood attainder I am not certain I care about his judgment seeing as it is capricious and arbitrary. Actually without a glorious after life murder is worse not because god says but because you take away all a person has and will ever have. But lets be clear as Gaidin pointed out we mean the deliberate planed killing of another human being, out of anger, for gain, vengeance, etc. I don't think you need god to find that wrong. That is decidedly different from reckless homicide or manslaughter or being a solder.


    -----
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob69Joe View Post
    I like Dante's perspective on fidelity. It leads to the question of strangers among us and who we know. Murder takes a back seat to keeping distance, an artificial distance, between people in your daily dealings.
    On fidelity his is erratic. There is no reason to put Brutus and Cassius with Judas. They were loyal to the republic as they saw it. Caesar should be in some ring for hubris and not having a hard veteran of the 10th legion hanging about. I am surprised he did not try and stick Cassandra in there (although I don't know if Euripides and Aeschylus were widely available at the time)
    Last edited by conon394; October 08, 2018 at 11:48 AM.
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    Tiro
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    Default Re: Why is murder wrong?

    Nietzsche belives in a Godhead. His arguments against entropy would apply if he were among Muslims, or even Buddhists. There is a whole sect of Buddhists that teach pacifism.

    Edit: and that's my defense of Nietzsche. Keep on keepin' on Solar Kid! 8)

    Goodwill hiring disabled folks is only entropy. Actually setting aside the land and people needed for a cretch, is going to take away from dozens of lives that would otherwise be caring for their own families and the grandchildren. Is murder the answer? Probably not to Anglos, but is letting a three year old with harsh disabilities succumb to sickness such an evil? If humans are at all redeemable, then anything done in this life doesn't need to be a final judgement. Read that Dejection of Arjuna, it's Aryan and in other forms has travelled the world. I can only put it in the code format, so it reads like an instruction, quite an interesting take on what is originally an oral history.
    Last edited by Bob69Joe; October 08, 2018 at 12:06 PM.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Why is murder wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Too bad about the people in Jericho I guess they did not have infinite worth. Seeing as god is a big fan blood attainder I am not certain I care about his judgment seeing as it is capricious and arbitrary. Actually without a glorious after life murder is worse not because god says but because you take away all a person has and will ever have. But lets be clear as Gaidin pointed out we mean the deliberate planed killing of another human being, out of anger, for gain, vengeance, etc. I don't think you need god to find that wrong. That is decidedly different from reckless homicide or manslaughter or being a solder.)
    Premise 1: Killing a homo sapiens is taking away all he has and will ever have
    Premise 2: ?
    Conclusion: Killing homo sapiens is wrong

    That does not follow. It's a logically invalid argument. What exactly is 2?

    Let's substitute "homo sapiens" with another object and see if the argument holds:

    Premise 1: Killing a Gallus gallus is taking away all it has and will ever have
    Premise 2: ?
    Conclusion 3: Killing Gallus gallus is wrong

    Would you accept that as true?

    -

    God creates life and can take it back; since God is by definition perfect, every act of his is good.

    What infinite worth means, in this context, is that all human beings are equal and no one can take the life of another. Without religion, there can be no coherent ground for the intrinsic worth of man since, when materialism is taken to its logical conclusion, all life becomes reducible to matter; a human and a cockroach have equal worth, since each is ultimately nothing but matter rearranged in a different shape.
    Last edited by Prodromos; October 08, 2018 at 12:21 PM.
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    Default Re: Why is murder wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Legend View Post
    Premise 1: Killing a homo sapiens is taking away all he has and will ever have
    Premise 2: ?
    Conclusion: Killing homo sapiens is wrong

    That does not follow. It's a logically invalid argument. What exactly is 2?

    Let's substitute "homo sapiens" with another object and see if the argument holds:

    Premise 1: Killing a Gallus gallus is taking away all it has and will ever have
    Premise 2: ?
    Conclusion 3: Killing Gallus gallus is wrong

    Would you accept that as true?
    The difference is that members of Homo sapiens are your conspecifics, with whom you form a society of sorts. Being allowed to commit unprovoked acts of violence, particularly if lethal, undermines trust in said society, causing it to fail. Which is bad because our species relies on forming trust-based societies to unfold its full potential.
    When it comes to violence against other species, there are other factors at play, such as predation. Chicken taste good, they make for useful farm animals, and they can neither procreate with us nor share intellectual insight. Ergo, they're on the menu. That said, being randomly violent towards other species (particularly if it's not for the sake of eating them) is generally frowned upon as well, with religion or without. I don't think there needs to be a "god" rationalization, in fact, I like to imagine that "because God said so" evolved as an argument to keep those in check who are either too psychotic, too dense, or too intellectually lazy to act logically.

  11. #11
    Tiro
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    Default Re: Why is murder wrong?

    Not everyone is equal, as it takes so much effort to move beyond the point of complete strangers. Culture is cultivated in the same way that species exist, in a war-like manner, but that is subordinate to the intuition that is selectively bound by each culture. Murder is just another of the many things that have become dusty on the shelf of our knowledge of the progress of man, and I'll say it here, democracy has always failed those that attempt it. If there is a peaceful way out of any situation where your group is in a weaker position to a strange group, the same war-like spirit will induce several possibilities that may not be shared by each during the clash. There may be fear, there may be graciousness, so many things simultaneously, but the nature of war and murder actually seals the fates of those who had been strange to eachother so that they begin to understand eachother.

  12. #12
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Why is murder wrong?

    Murder is wrong because taking the life of another has been since the beginning of time wrong and all men know that. There isn't a culture or civilization that has not understood this and has laws natural or otherwise to combat it.

  13. #13
    Himster's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Why is murder wrong?

    Well going by the two main Deontological views: The Categorical Imperative when we project a principle universally applied (such as murder) we see that it is inherently contradictory, so by the process we can rationally deduce that murder is wrong. Secondly: Divine Command Theory one chooses a random "Holy man" who claims to hear voices that tell him what to do and you listen to him tell you what those voices say without question, if you're lucky sometimes those voices tell you to not kill some people, maybe.

    Going by the Utilitarian Model, which strives to maximize pleasure and minimize pain, it is self explanatory as to how one would come to the conclusion that murder is wrong. (I don't consider this deontological because it's more descriptive of motivation than concerned with good/bad results)

    Virtue Ethics, particularly the Nietzschean formulation, exalts the beautiful life. One gives style to one's character, one fashions oneself as one might fashion a beautiful painting or sculpture. If you were to ask a Nietzschean man why he doesn't murder, he will simply reply "I am not a murderer".... and that's it, much like asking why an early Picasso painting isn't red: it simply isn't. Obviously this works fine for people with taste and aesthetic talent/training. But it carries no prescriptive weight on its own, it'd be disastrously applied on a society, even Nietzsche called this formulation anti-moralistic in nature. But I find that it holds a certain appeal.

    Each one is flawed. The Categorical Imperative is so strict that it demands one never lie at all to the point that one is forced to acquiesce to murderers, and obedience/duty is such that even Eichmann used it to justify his actions/inactions in his trial when accused of being the architect of the Holocaust. Divine Command Theory is based on arbitrary axioms and suffers the same flaw of strictness as the Categorical Imperative but without even the saving grace that is the structure of rationality, it's inherently culturally (or even individually), generally the instructions of holy men are deliberately vague, thus allowing for the opportunity for creative interpretation such that ends justify means (Mormon Blood-Atonement, Suicide-Bombers, Crusades, Jihads, Mass-Suicides, homophobic/transphobic/sexist laws and violence, etc.). Utilitarianism is a mess of relativism, what reason do we have for believing pleasure to be an inherent good, or pain an inherent bad? How can we define these concepts/phenomena? In short it carries no prescriptive weight, but it offers a reasonably good description of general human moral behavior that translates well trans-culturally. One can see this motivation used for acts of murder also "It's us or them" or "It's better that only one of us dies rather than all of us." Even the Nazis dabbled in this with the "It's us or them" sort of jargon. So... it's not perfect.
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are so certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubts.
    -Betrand Russell

  14. #14

    Default Re: Why is murder wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by athanaric View Post
    The difference is that members of Homo sapiens are your conspecifics, with whom you form a society of sorts. Being allowed to commit unprovoked acts of violence, particularly if lethal, undermines trust in said society, causing it to fail. Which is bad because our species relies on forming trust-based societies to unfold its full potential.
    When it comes to violence against other species, there are other factors at play, such as predation. Chicken taste good, they make for useful farm animals, and they can neither procreate with us nor share intellectual insight. Ergo, they're on the menu. That said, being randomly violent towards other species (particularly if it's not for the sake of eating them) is generally frowned upon as well, with religion or without. I don't think there needs to be a "god" rationalization, in fact, I like to imagine that "because God said so" evolved as an argument to keep those in check who are either too psychotic, too dense, or too intellectually lazy to act logically.
    So this argument would rest on the premise that people are, or should be, loyal to the species, including all members of the species. But I don't know if that's true; judging by human history, most humans seem more loyal to themselves or their tribe than to the species. A human could care deeply for their child or their horse, but have no qualms about killing people belonging to another tribe. A pet could be more valuable than a human stranger. Even today, people would rather spend billions of dollars feeding and grooming their pets than donate to strangers. So our relationship to other humans isn't absolute and set in stone; other humans are our allies or enemies only in relative terms, depending on the situation, no different from any other creature.

    "Speciesism" then is just a personal preference or prejudice, like nationalism or racism, rather than a binding moral law. People may have different preferences; who's to say which preference is the correct one? In order to have an objective law, we need an objective law-giver. Without this objective source of morality, no code of morality can be considered more right or wrong than another; it all depends on what each individual's preferences are.

    As serial rapist Ted Bundy says:

    “Then I learned that all moral judgments are ‘value judgments,’ that all value judgments are subjective [it just depends on how you think about them], and that none can be proved to be either ‘right’ or ‘wrong’…I discovered that to become truly free, truly unfettered, I had to become truly uninhibited. And I quickly discovered that the greatest obstacle to my freedom, the greatest block and limitation to it, consists in the insupportable “value judgment that I was bound to respect the rights of others. I asked myself, who were these ‘others?’ Other human beings with human rights? Why is it more wrong to kill a human animal than any other animal, a pig or a sheep or a steer? Is your life more to you than a hog’s life to a hog? Why should I be willing to sacrifice my pleasure more for the one than for the other? Surely, you would not, in this age of scientific enlightenment, declare that God or nature has marked some pleasures as ‘moral’ or ‘good’ and others as ‘immoral’ or ‘bad’? In any case, let me assure you, my dear young lady, that there is absolutely no comparison between the pleasure I might take in eating ham and the pleasure I anticipate in raping and murdering you. That is the honest conclusion to which my education has led me – after the most conscientious examination of my spontaneous and uninhibited self.”
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    Tiro
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    Default Re: Why is murder wrong?

    No doubt Bundy was an animal with a knack for reading some books. Do you know when he made that statement?

    It is pointless to describe murder as an action done with a sole intention that has an implication for universal consequences, or whatever. A King, such as Christ, can not compel anyone to do anything, but kicking them out of the group and to the road is within his power. That said though, those who are of the group do not bind themselves by principles of avoiding harming eachother. The challenge of having accomplished anything higher than tribal existence means that the individuals must be aware of their worth. The current systems we live by are highly entropic, with meaningless, unthought statements of equality and liberty.

    It's like saying absurdly, that all of our ancestor's actions were done for the sole reason of avoiding death in any situation and that is why we are here.
    Last edited by Bob69Joe; October 10, 2018 at 06:47 PM.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Why is murder wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob69Joe View Post
    No doubt Bundy was an animal with a knack for reading some books. Do you know when he made that statement?
    No idea when it was made or how accurate it is. It's apparently a paraphrase of, "a taped statement given by Ted Bundy from prison to one of his surviving victims" ... "This is a paraphrase from that tape, done by Harry V. Jaffa for his book Homosexuality and the National Law (Claremont, CA: The Claremont Institute of the Study of Statesmanship and Political Philosophy, 1990)"
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    Default Re: Why is murder wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Murder is wrong because taking the life of another has been since the beginning of time wrong and all men know that. There isn't a culture or civilization that has not understood this and has laws natural or otherwise to combat it.
    A post that doesn't know what murder means.

    ...

    I don't feel like quoting my earlier post so leave me alone mods.
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  18. #18
    Tiro
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    Default Re: Why is murder wrong?

    Oh, huh. All I meant by murder was the taking of life by someone to another. I think the karmic wheel has long been adjusted to the fact that some human cause is inflicting another's death. Though, that's why Black Metal is so cool.

    Youtube video of Absurd's song Green Heart from their later years after Möbus got out of prison for MURDER! The music is more technically proficient, but lacks the subtleness of their earlier works.

    Spoiler for Lyrics of Green Heart
    Green Heart

    [1.]
    Thuringian plain, deep dark forest
    Evil dwells on there in the woods
    Snowcovered hills, cold winds blowing
    Romantic place, is it understood?

    [Kehrreim:]
    Evil in the forest in Germany’s Green Heart!

    [2.]
    Hateful savages, strong black minds
    Out of the forest, kill the human kind
    Burn the settlements and grow the woods
    Until this romantic place is understood!

    [3.]
    Animals, beasts, horrend landscape
    Cause there are no signs of human living
    When you look around no human living
    Now this romantic place is understood!


    The lyrics proclaim that no human resides in those forests when they were urwald. I haven't seen any notion, or idea, of humanity that hasn't immediately descended into a souless utilitarianism. If all of our egalitarian systems really worked, there wouldn't be billions of people with no hope but to die young. Not that dying has ever been a thing strange to humanity, but the voices that proclaim the loudest to being the standard that must be followed are all lying about it. So, back to fidelity. Nationalism is sanity, and it provides that some will make it through the terrible disorder brought on by denying the inherent values that only a people on their own can judge and refine through the upward guidance of the best among them.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Why is murder wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob69Joe View Post
    Oh, huh. All I meant by murder was the taking of life by someone to another.
    Taking life in self-defense isn't murder.

    With but one example I've ruined your entire premise and created an actual debate. Go me.

    Either debate or go away.
    Last edited by Gaidin; October 10, 2018 at 11:11 PM.
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  20. #20
    Tiro
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    Default Re: Why is murder wrong?

    Excuse me, sorcerer.

    I argue that murder can be anything you want it to be.

    Murder in the name of Revolution is not murder. All the folks in the French Terror weren't murdered but liberated.

    Though you know I have not been jesting. Murder means nothing when there is a lack of identity and loyalty among the people.
    Last edited by Bob69Joe; October 10, 2018 at 11:29 PM.

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