[2018 XXIV] [Citizen Referral] Halie Satanus

[Tango12345]

Received earlier today:

Hello Tribunal
I am referring Halie Satanus for breaching the standards expected of a Citizen, and actively obstructing the main purpose of the Curia, namely to propose and discuss amendments or improvements to the site.
The grounds for this referral are Section I – Article I, Section II – Article I and Section III – Article I of the Curial Constitution.


In the “TWC Currency Concept” thread, Halie Satanus made the following two statements:

This is disturbing/sickening...

Please drop this now and implore the curator to dump it.

Yeah that kinda comment is just completely useless. At least give feedback rather than insinuating Pike is some war criminal attempting to subvert TWC.

I did not insinuate, I said exactly what I meant.

Section I – Article I

Citizenship is the fundamental award given by the Curia for contributions to the site and community of TWC

Section II – Article I

The Curia is a place for all Citizens of the site to discuss and propose changes to the site

Section III – Article I

Citizens are expected to behave in an exemplary manner and can be referred to the Triumvirate for a review of their behaviour and possible disciplinary action.

These three articles state that the role and purpose of a Citizen is to contribute to the site and community of TWC and to discuss and promote changes in an exemplary manner.


Whether or not a Citizen disagrees with a fellow Citizen's proposal, it is not acceptable to call a proposal "disturbing/sickening" and to call for it to be preemptively thrown out with no discussion being had.
This directly contradicts the role of what a Citizen is to do. Furthermore, when this issue was raised by Commissar Caligula_, and feedback was asked for, Halie Satanus refused to be productive in their discussion and doubled down on the insult. Furthermore, although merely failing to refute something is not a good grounds for referral, it should be noted that he did not refute the claim that he was "insinuating Pike [was] attempting to subvert TWC".


To sum up my arguments, the entire purpose of the Curia is to award site members for exemplary contributions by providing them a forum to discuss contributions to the site.
By actively attempting to sabotage such a discussion, and abusing a fellow member for merely making a suggestion is completely unacceptable, and no matter what you may think of a suggestion you should either keep quiet or discuss it in a reasonable manner.


P.S. The mere fact that the discussion thread was created in the Curia main forum, and was not a specific official proposal created in the Prothalamos should not affect your decisions.
The thread was created where it was to allow brainstorming and to ask for feedback. You could even go so far as to argue that it requires constructive feedback to a greater extent than an official proposal in the Prothalamos, as its sole purpose is to expand upon the idea rather than to simply let it go to the vote and see whether the Fors or Againsts will carry the issue.

[Hitai de Bodemloze]

[B]Whether or not a Citizen disagrees with a fellow Citizen's proposal, it is not acceptable to call a proposal "disturbing/sickening" and to call for it to be preemptively thrown out with no discussion being had.

I can execute the five finger death punch and blow bubbles out my ass on Sunday evenings. Yet, convincing Pike to trash an idea with two comments seems a bit far fetched.

This directly contradicts the role of what a Citizen is to do. Furthermore, when this issue was raised by Commissar Caligula_, and feedback was asked for, Halie Satanus refused to be productive in their discussion and doubled down on the insult.

At no point after my comment was I asked for 'feedback.' Nor did I 'refuse' to be productive. I made no 'insult' towards the proposer.

Furthermore, although merely failing to refute something is not a good grounds for referral, it should be noted that he did not refute the claim that he was "insinuating Pike [was] attempting to subvert TWC".

I did not refute an insinuation made in something someone else said. Eh?. I actually refuted that I made any insinuation. That's just embarrassing.

By actively attempting to sabotage such a discussion, and abusing a fellow member for merely making a suggestion is completely unacceptable, and no matter what you may think of a suggestion you should either keep quiet or discuss it in a reasonable manner.

I did not abuse the poster, I admonished his idea. I'm sure there are ways to 'sabotage' a thread, two one line comments, neither of which are directed at the poster, would be a very poor attempt. I should be flattered my views are so feared.

P.S. The mere fact that the discussion thread was created in the Curia main forum, and was not a specific official proposal created in the Prothalamos should not affect your decisions.
The thread was created where it was to allow brainstorming and to ask for feedback. You could even go so far as to argue that it requires constructive feedback to a greater extent than an official proposal in the Prothalamos, as its sole purpose is to expand upon the idea rather than to simply let it go to the vote and see whether the Fors or Againsts will carry the issue.

Certain members try to force the curia into only offering positive feedback to give the illusion a proposal has been well received. I do not entertain such politiking.

I find this referral to be a dramatized misrepresentation of the facts. Were such lies posted in public they would be worthy of a referral.

Should the trium find against me, this can go to the curia. I would prefer it posted as I have presented it here.

Regards.

HS.

[♔atthias♔]

hmm do not think there is anything uncitizen like here those statements are not directed against a poster and like halie said it is not wrong to give negatieve feedback

I do think though that the comment by halie could however be a bit less strong worded (I hope you get what I mean)

[Hitai de Bodemloze]

Quite so. I had actually drafted a reply before I requested the defence from Halie, but he's rather taken the words out of my mouth, and we need not belabour the point. Dismiss.

[♔atthias♔]

demiss from me too

[Hitai de Bodemloze]

Poll added.

[♔atthias♔]

well I cannot see the poll

[Hitai de Bodemloze]

Oh my apologies, I put it up a tad early and Tango had kindly obliged me and taken it down. As Halie has already made part of this referral public, and has intimated that he wishes our proceedings to be made public after we are concluded, I got rather a little paranoid and thought we'd best wait the full 4 four days mandated by the Constitution before we proceed. Entirely ridiculous I know, but given that we're under a lot of scrutiny right now, I figure it's better to be safe than sorry. I will repost the poll on Tuesday.

[♔atthias♔]

I know what you mean so it sounds like good idea to me

[Aikanár]

Gentlemen, how is the status of this?

[General Brewster]

Poll added, Hitai & Atthias please vote.

[Hitai de Bodemloze]

Voted.

[General Brewster]

Case dismissed.