The Sweboz Can be Quite a Tough Enemy

[Marie Louise von Preussen]

I've decided that among all the factions I've met, the Sweboz are the toughest enemies. Romani campaign, turn 464, and I've decided to march from my strongholds in Southern Gaul to completely conquer Gaul, Britannia, and parts of Germania, as well as Rhaetia and Noricum, in a bold and ambitious campaign with 5 legions doing the bidding.

I lay siege to Uiennos, which is in Sweboz hands. By this time, the Sweboz control significant parts of Gaul, the Aedui are stuck in Central Gaul, while I control the South.

Then I send my second legion, under the command of Marcus Cornelius Arvina, to besiege Gergovia. The Sweboz sense my movements and intercept Arvina with a host of numerically superior troops.

Fierce combat ensues. Now I've never had problem, even during Camillan times, fighting and defeating Gallic infantry. But this is the first time I ever get to fight Sweboz infantry on the open field.

The ensuing battle is a chaotic, bloody mess. The first wave of a few numerically inferior soldiers gets trashed with ease with a hail of pila. But then the two other massive waves clash with my legions.

The hastati fight up until they get exhausted. In my flanks, the Clavdietai swordsmen are decimated, while the Brigantinoi, being Elite and constantly inspired by my Triarii and my general, hold on against the Sweboz hammer: vast numbers of numerically superior troops.

Then the hastati get recalled and I unleash the Principes. Another bloody mess: the Brigantinoi on the left flank get surrounded, while the Clavdietai rout. Massive cavalry battle on my right flank too.

The Principes fight on until they are Exhausted. But they're unable to break the enemy. When they have suffered 60% casualties, I recall them and unleash the Triarii in a desperate last ditch attempt. By then there were no reserves and the enemy was also fully committed.

Luckily my General is fairly good, has Imperium, and quite a few command stars. The units hold on their own. Finally, after yet another round of bitter fighting, the Sweboz start to rout, but their General and a few units around decide to fight to death. It's not until they've mostly been routed that the last two Sweboz generals die, but the Halithoz bodyguard with 3 units remaining still fights to death against my Triarii. The rest of my cavalry pursues the routers: my Clavdietai and Brigantinoi by now have been annihilated.

Triarii suffer less casualties than the rest, but that's because they have been kept as a reserve until the bitter end; the result is a clear heroic victory, but I'm still very surprised. The enemy is annihilated, but my casualties are excessive and I'll have to send Arvina back to Italy to refit.

It's has been a fair many years since I've played as the Sweboz or faced them, but I gotta say that off all barbarian factions, they have the strongest infantry roster ever. No other barbarian faction comes close to that: the Keltoi, the Getai, etc... simply don't have that much fierceness and staying power as the Sweboz guys. And their looks and stats can be deceptive: while they look like ill equipped, light guys from the woods, they give a tremendous account of themselves on the field.

All in all, I've enjoyed it. But I almost lost that battle. If one of my units decided to run away, my morale would have collapsed early on and I would have lost.

[Wulfburk]

Sweboz are tough yeah, them and getae can grow quite big in the campaign, and then their army composition is really strong.

I had much more trouble in my epeiros campaign against getae than like all other 10 or so factions ive fought against, even losing two major even battles and losing my basileus.

In eb1 Sweboz always became a huge threat as they had no immediate enemy (same as getae). Now its not so sure also but it happens later on most times too.

[Marie Louise von Preussen]

Nice to hear your account, Wulfburk. Yeah, it happens too. But overall, despite fighting Sweboz, Getai and Lugiones, I still give the highest mark to the Sweboz guys. They really have the toughest infantry, including that Halithoz unit which also doubles as General's Bodyguard, fights literally to death, and inspires the guys around them to do more or less the same.

[Frtigern]

Also the Areuakoi and Lusotannan have some good infantry and good light cavalry. Dare I say, they have just as good javelin infantry as the Romans.

Sent from my SM-G892U using Tapatalk

[Septentrionalis]

A catching story, thanks for sharing your experience. I guess the modders have done a fine job of reflecting the fact the Germanic peoples were tough as nails.

One doesn't necessarily come to think of it, but Rome conquered the entire Transalpine Gaul in just eight years. In contrast, they fought the Germanic peoples for five centuries and eventually the Germanic peoples won and put an end to the empire (a simplification of the matter, but basically true).

[Genava]

A catching story, thanks for sharing your experience. I guess the modders have done a fine job of reflecting the fact the Germanic peoples were tough as nails.

One doesn't necessarily come to think of it, but Rome conquered the entire Transalpine Gaul in just eight years. In contrast, they fought the Germanic peoples for five centuries and eventually the Germanic peoples won and put an end to the empire (a simplification of the matter, but basically true).

No, it is not true. You are comparing how civilizations faced a rising empire at its golden age with how civilizations faced a dying empire with numerous internal conflicts. This kind of logic is dull.

[Septentrionalis]

No, it is not true. You are comparing how civilizations faced a rising empire at its golden age with how civilizations faced a dying empire with numerous internal conflicts. This kind of logic is dull.

While I agree that such would be dull indeed, I am not sure how it relates to the point I was trying to make.

The Germanic wars of Rome that I referred to began before G. Julius Caesar was even born let alone had conquered Gaul. Rome never really got the upper hand and eventually, after many centuries, the Germanic peoples did get the upper hand. That is the reality of the matter regardless of the myriad of factors affecting the final outcome which I tried to acknowledge by writing "a simplification of the matter". For various reasons Rome always had a hard time dealing with the Germanic tribes, more so than with most others. I have no doubt that they were a hardy bunch.

[Genava]

While I agree that such would be dull indeed, I am not sure how it relates to the point I was trying to make.

The Germanic wars of Rome that I referred to began before G. Julius Caesar was even born let alone had conquered Gaul. Rome never really got the upper hand and eventually, after many centuries, the Germanic peoples did get the upper hand. That is the reality of the matter regardless of the myriad of factors affecting the final outcome which I tried to acknowledge by writing "a simplification of the matter". For various reasons Rome always had a hard time dealing with the Germanic tribes, more so than with most others. I have no doubt that they were a hardy bunch.

- Marius crush the Cimbri and the Teutones relatively easily. The Cimbri and the Teutones got even repelled from the North of the Gaul by Celtic populations.

- Caesar crush the Suebi of Ariovistus as easily than the rest of the "barbarians".

- There isn't five centuries of wars with the Germanic tribes. After Arminius, there is no trouble for the Roman empire until the Marcomanni. More than 150 years between the two events. After the Marcomanni there is no trouble until 235AD with the Alemani and the Goths. 50 years of stability since the Marcomannic Wars. The true beginning of the crisis with the Germans is simultaneous with the internal collapse of the Roman empire, 235 AD and the third century crisis.

- There are misconceptions in the use of the label Germanic, Gallic and Belgian by the Romans:
See there:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post15628781
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post15664657

[Septentrionalis]

- There isn't five centuries of wars with the Germanic tribes. After Arminius, there is no trouble for the Roman empire until the Marcomanni. More than 150 years between the two events. After the Marcomanni there is no trouble until 235AD with the Alemani and the Goths. 50 years of stability since the Marcomannic Wars. The true beginning of the crisis with the Germans is simultaneous with the internal collapse of the Roman empire, 235 AD and the third century crisis.

I was counting in the troubles with Chatti, Batavi, and the Frisians in that 150-year period, but you are right that conflicts weren't that common really. Moreover, you seem to have read extensively on the subject and certainly more than I have, so I am not going to challenge your conclusions.

- There are misconceptions in the use of the label Germanic, Gallic and Belgian by the Romans:
See there:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post15628781
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post15664657

I have been aware of the difficulties in differentiating between Celts and Germans in the context of classical antiquity for a long time, but the information you linked was an interesting and educating read. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

[postm00v]

Out of curiosity, how do you switch out the different lines (principes for hastati) without causing a massive rout?

[Lusitanio]

Septentrionalis while it is true that Rome had troubles with the Germanic peoples, it is wrong to say they got the upper hand.
The thing is, Gaul was a civilized place by the time of Roman conquest, with many settlements, peoples (from whom Rome made allies like the Aedui), rodes and especially, many opportunities to get rich, to get loot for the troops, for the Republic.
Different from Gaul, Germania was a very far place, full of forests and few riches. The victories the Germans got, like the one that killed Varus legions, was made possible only because of a betrayal by Arminius. After that, the Romans sent punitive expeditions there, killing and sacking all they could but because there wasn't much to gain with Germany, they decided to leave it alone. Rome got the upper hand any time they invaded there, managing to be stronger, better organised and capable of inflicting defeats on the germans.

[Septentrionalis]

The victories the Germans got, like the one that killed Varus legions, was made possible only because of a betrayal by Arminius. After that, the Romans sent punitive expeditions there, killing and sacking all they could but because there wasn't much to gain with Germany, they decided to leave it alone. Rome got the upper hand any time they invaded there, managing to be stronger, better organised and capable of inflicting defeats on the germans.

You make some fine points there. It is probably true that German lands were harder to keep in the long run than conquer initially. Definitely any conquest should pay off and there are many reasons why the German campaigns did not. One interesting consideration that I read about is that Rome could not find a way of instituting their power the conventional ways that they were used to. There were no power structures that they could make use of and rely on in the long term (such as kingdoms governing large areas), and micromanaging one village at a time among a hostile people in a natural environment that Romans did not like for little gain was just not very enticing. Of course the lack of organization among the Germans would play in Roman favor during the conquest but not when establishing permanent presence.

However, Romans did suffer defeats as well over the course of the Germanic wars (not only Teutoburg) and were probably not very tolerant of great losses for little gain. The Germans would continue to be a thorn in their side and the German threat would only intensify over the centuries as the the German populations grew and began to expand.

[Lusitanio]

Well said about the lack of power structures, it would be really hard for the Romans to mantain a permanent presence.
And yes, sorry, I was in a bit of a rush and didn't had time to explain, Romans suffered more defeats and we cannot forget the badass germanic invasions that put fear on the poor Roman soldiers like in the time of Marius. But overall, the Romans almost always got the upper hand.
Knowing much about history, I can say that it wasn't much about the Germans growing in power but Romans loosing their ability to assert power because of the constant civil war environment and the need to remove legions from the rhine to support emperors and their endless wars creating a vaccum that German tribes used. But you can also see that the Germans still respected the Romans because on the late empire, they weren't trying to destroy Rome but seeking lands to be safe and wanting a Foederatus (not very sure if it is the right word) status, fighting for the Romans.

[Nightsh4de]

I hold the Germanic Veteran Spearmen in very high regard, they are just so tough in battle, as a Getic player, I find them impressive

[Marie Louise von Preussen]

Well said about the lack of power structures, it would be really hard for the Romans to mantain a permanent presence.
And yes, sorry, I was in a bit of a rush and didn't had time to explain, Romans suffered more defeats and we cannot forget the badass germanic invasions that put fear on the poor Roman soldiers like in the time of Marius. But overall, the Romans almost always got the upper hand.
Knowing much about history, I can say that it wasn't much about the Germans growing in power but Romans loosing their ability to assert power because of the constant civil war environment and the need to remove legions from the rhine to support emperors and their endless wars creating a vaccum that German tribes used. But you can also see that the Germans still respected the Romans because on the late empire, they weren't trying to destroy Rome but seeking lands to be safe and wanting a Foederatus (not very sure if it is the right word) status, fighting for the Romans.

Yes, you're right Lusitanio, but that didn't necessarily happen because of Roman decline. Germanic Auxilia exist since very much earlier in history, back to Augustan times. Even Caesar employed Germanic auxilia.

The thing is, when Odoacer formally deposed the last Western Roman Emperor in 476, he still minted Roman coins, subjected himself nominally to the authority of Constantinople as a "Governor" of Italy, and still employed lots of Roman civil service staff, Roman law, etc...

The Germans wanted to live under Rome because it was so much better than living in a rough forest in Germania. The migrations attest to that, but even more, because Rome even in her decadence put civilized institutions, currency, laws, etc... that most Germans - despite having their own tribal laws - would not have wanted to destroy or supplement. Besides that, there wasn't an unified "Germanic" host or mentality back then: many of them thought that by serving as foederati, they could earn land and often sided with Rome against other Germans and marauding barbarians to honor their feudal contract.

The roots of the feudal contract, by the way, come from the foederati system of the Late Empire. The Germans too, didn't change a lot of things, but rather when they conquered something tried to stick with the Roman rules as much as possible.

As a student of Latin, it is also important to know that one of the chief factors in the change from Vulgar Latin to Romance was the adoption, by the conqueror hosts, of the language of the immense majority they conquered. They spoke in a funny latin, often Gallo or Iberic Romance, peppered with terms borrowed from their previous Germanic tongues: that's how French, Occitan and even Romanian - though Romanian comes from contacts with Celts and Slavs more than Germanics - came to the fore as independent languages.

[Marie Louise von Preussen]

Out of curiosity, how do you switch out the different lines (principes for hastati) without causing a massive rout?

Use <W> command, keep your Principes close by and also your Triarii, they inspire your soldiers enough so they won't rout. You can also keep allied elite units or your general close by, Brigantinoi and Gallic Nobles are a good example of this.

[Jormungand]

Use <W> command, keep your Principes close by and also your Triarii, they inspire your soldiers enough so they won't rout. You can also keep allied elite units or your general close by, Brigantinoi and Gallic Nobles are a good example of this.

Sorry - is this a good idea? Getting your men to the white flag command is pretty much, under game mechanics causing a directed rout. When your lines have been told to withdraw like this they turn and run and will be cut down as they turn their backs, sustaining losses, no?

It is a bit annoying that there cannot be a different way to simulate in game the Roman switching out of maniples/cohorts from the front line - if we even knew how they did it properly - Goldworthy said, if I recall, this was not documented and suggested a few different ways of how they could have done this. Unfortunately this is not within the game engine.

[LusitanianWolf]

Sorry - is this a good idea? Getting your men to the white flag command is pretty much, under game mechanics causing a directed rout. When your lines have been told to withdraw like this they turn and run and will be cut down as they turn their backs, sustaining losses, no?

It is a bit annoying that there cannot be a different way to simulate in game the Roman switching out of maniples/cohorts from the front line - if we even knew how they did it properly - Goldworthy said, if I recall, this was not documented and suggested a few different ways of how they could have done this. Unfortunately this is not within the game engine.

I've tried it with good success in custom battles with Lugiones and Sabeans and it worked very well as a way to switch unit lines.. I think the key is as Marie told to keep your second line close to the first one, to use if possible morale boosting units near by (a good general might help) and to order the retreat while unit morale isn't so bad.

Thank you Marie Louise, it's the first time I've been able to use this tactic successfully!

[hlidskjalf]

Sorry - is this a good idea? Getting your men to the white flag command is pretty much, under game mechanics causing a directed rout. When your lines have been told to withdraw like this they turn and run and will be cut down as they turn their backs, sustaining losses, no?

It is a bit annoying that there cannot be a different way to simulate in game the Roman switching out of maniples/cohorts from the front line - if we even knew how they did it properly - Goldworthy said, if I recall, this was not documented and suggested a few different ways of how they could have done this. Unfortunately this is not within the game engine.

i tried the w method just yesterday and didn't lose more than a couple losses, if that. this was two units of my gallic spears vs. principes. and i was able to undo the withdraw when enough space was reached. i don't love the method but it does seem to work, at the risk of causing a mass route i suppose. sometimes the AI does pull back or recall units engaged in melee, or move them elsewhere, and when that does happen, you can take that advantage to cycle out a company

[Frtigern]

How does the Lugiones infantry roster compare to the Sweboz? Also how does the Boii infantry roster compare to the other Gallic and Celtic factions?

Sent from my SM-G892U using Tapatalk