Public Beta Test - 1.2.3f - Battle Stat Overhaul, CAI Overhaul and New Traits System (Updated Dec 18)

[PietrolEremita]

Kam, the Indian macemen have slightly higher stats than guild warriors but now use the same pop (2) so I don't think they are distinct enough. I would suggest making them much better than guild warriors as shock infantry but bringing back to pop 1 to avoid spam. This way they can have their own niche rather than just taking over the guild warriors role making them (the guild warriors) useless.

About the mercenaries... Is replenishment also in the startpos? If not zeroing that for elephant could be a workaround

[Dresden]

Just to address a few of the posts:

Taxes: Some of the tax level effects were reduced or removed because we were having some issues with taxes and population growth reported by some players. However, I wasn't aware of it being that big of a change and I don't remember changing anything with buildings?

Seleucid Kingdom vs Empire: This was primarily a gameplay decision because the empire government type is supposed to be something that is worked toward/unlocked in the later game. I didn't even know they started as an empire until it was pointed out in the discord channel and I thought it was a fair point that they should start as a Kingdom (no factions start as an empire in the GC, which you could make an argument some should). I think its a fair debate about whether or not you can classify them as a Kingdom or Empire (or what really is the difference between the two at the time period). I don't see having satrapies as being the same thing as an Imperial government. I have a hard time understanding why it became a huge issue here when we are doing far more important and massive changes to fundamental parts of the mod. Its one entry for one faction that is debatable.

Ancillaries: The disappearing or incorrectly triggering ancillaries is a base game issue from what I can tell. They will even trigger for garrison commanders, which makes absolutely no sense. Its been a bug since patch 20 was released. This fix pack does cause ancillaries to disappear when you first load a save but they should show back up when you go to change that slot or gain a new one. I couldn't do anything about that because we were moving slots around.

Mercenaries: I want to reduce most merc replenishment across the board, especially some of the specialized ones. When we made them cheaper to retain, we should have lowered the replenishment values. Previously, upkeep was a limiting factor where now it really isn't anymore. However, I need to change each value in the startpos and I haven't gotten around to it yet. Elephants, for example, should be very rare.

[nikossaiz]

Don't hesitate to report back.



So more like a glitch ? any submods used ?

looked like a glitch. the unit was the sword celt mercenaries ( sorry , forget the name ) that you can hire in massalia. as for mods only a few cosmetics and campaign changing ones, "redused unit cost" , "2x trade", "arbitis", "wonders of the world", "roads", etc. nothing to do with animation or battle mechanics.

[Molokoa]

Originally Posted by Molokoa
Out of curiosity, were there any game-mechanic changes included with the stats re balancing? Or does charge bonus still add itself to both melee attack and weapon damage, decaying to no bonus over 30 seconds after impact? Just asking because it seems like charges have been made very strong. Also, I see that the health stat has been removed from the unit stats screen, has health been standardized for all units? (and if so, what does this value sit at now?)"





Bonus did not last for 30 seconds in DeI ever as I have put shorter charge bonus time. Charges are not as strong as they used to be in base DeI, in case of infantry at least.
HP has been removed as outside of ranged infantry, all general melee infantry (pikes and hoplites included) have same HP.

Hi Kam, I looked through this thread and your Experimental Combat System thread and didn't notice anywhere that really explained how DeI and the pack changes the mechanics for stuff like this. For example, from my understanding of base Rome 2, there is a base hit chance (i think 40%?, there is so much conflicting info moving around the internet), and then a unit's hit chance is based on this, plus the melee attack bonus of the attacking unit, subtracted by the melee defense of the defending unit. For example, a unit with 30 melee attack vs a unit with 40 melee defense would have a 30% chance to hit.

Obviously, with the re-worked melee attack and melee defense values from this test/your pack, I assume there is a different system going on in the background, as a high tier unit vs a low tier unit would barely gain any %chance to hit with the old system. Is there a thread out there detailing these changes overall? By that, I mean things like the re-worked hit chance calculations, unit hp values relative to weapon damage, how long charge bonuses last in DeI, etc. If you or anyone else knows about it, I would really appreciate it! (I did try to use the search function, but the closest thread I found stated that something like this didn't exist at the time, (from ~9 months ago)

[servent9]

hey guys! i found the solution for the suddenly reduced taxes!



this four values were changed to -5 to -1

it works same as it was when i revert it to -5.

+ cancel to save ur households!

and u can reassign them to charaters.

well i solve 2 problems myself. hehe



now 6 noble steeds are back to my royal stable

[Dresden]

Yeah we purposefully changed the EM reduction from female characters because it stacked too much

[servent9]

one more question! how do i revert seleucid as empire with PFM? it's in lua_script or DB?

[~Seleukos.I.Nikator~]

one more question! how do i revert seleucid as empire with PFM? it's in lua_script or DB?

I believe that's in the startpos.

[servent9]

I believe that's in the startpos.

oh mighty Seleukos Nikator!

may i have a question sir?

what should i do with startpos sir??

change what values? or typing something??

To DEI Team or other gentlemen please let me know if u know how to change.

+ [ should i edit something in Faction_array - 18 (seleucidmain) ? ]

[geala]

Changing startpos entries is a real chore, have a good time with it.

Question: what I never liked with the projectiles is the high range of javelins, really unrealistic under battlefield conditions, and not in relation to the range of arrows. Is it, with the new stat overhaul still official view that it is needed for the AI units to work properly? (I always changed it to lower ranges and felt no negative results from it in battles on the side of the AI, but maybe I was deluding myself)

[corsair831]

Only mods i have are dei workshop 3 parts and this beta, I'll send you some screenshots

[Hadhod]

I am experiencing plenty of errors with the ancillaries as well. My generals/agents get the popup that they have gained a household member or an object after battle, but many of those don't ever show up so I can't select them.

Also some ancillaries for generals seem to be only useable on agents which makes no sense for them (e.g. Blessed Arms of Ares on spies instead of generals).

[Holland_NL]

I feel like the old battle system is better, is a submod possible that includes the new traits system and keeps the old battle system?

[FlashHeart07]

I feel like the old battle system is better, is a submod possible that includes the new traits system and keeps the old battle system?

I seriously doubt that KAM will spend time reverting his changes back to something he deems less functional for the sake of meeting everyones special need.
So your best hope would be for someone outside the team to do it.

Sendt fra min SM-G930F med Tapatalk

[Ivan_Moscavich]

I seriously doubt that KAM will spend time reverting his changes back to something he deems less functional for the sake of meeting everyones special need.
So your best hope would be for someone outside the team to do it.

Sendt fra min SM-G930F med Tapatalk

what flash heart means to say is that we will likely have a sub mod for the current live version stats After this beta goes live. For those that much prefer the previous version and formation system.

I will be honest, this is the first time I am not fully on board with Kam for a battle stat overhaul.
That may change after some tweaking, but right now I don't enjoy the feel of combat compared to the current live version.
From a gameplay design perspective however I do fully appreciate How the stats are down laid out and how everything is organized.

my main concerns right now are disorganized and underperforming Romans, and in my experience I am actually just now starting to see rotating and bugging out hoplite units. I never actually seen this previous to the experimental battle stats pack.

Hopefully we can fix these s issues.

But it should not be too much of a problem to create a official sub mod with the current live version stats.

[Holland_NL]

I know this is a beta and should not be treated like the full release but when I watch units casually walk into a pike phalanx and start sword fighting with the front row it does worry me quite a bit. In the non-beta system they would keep enemies at a distance by stabbing with their pikes unless sheer weight of numbers or something else disrupting the phalanx allowed them to get close. In the beta they cant only just walk right up the the soldiers ignoring the pikes, I have seen entire enemy hoplite phalanxes push through a 5 man deep pike phalanx and out the other side before turning around and rear attacking the pike unit. Microing the pikes to try and stop it did nothing :S

I like the differences in unit speed but other than that I dont really see any improvements hence my question Ivan luckily answered. What has been built so far is great and improving it will be an enormous challenge!

EDIT: I of course dont use anything that could cause mod conflicts should that come to mind

[corsair831]

Admittedly i only tried it for a few hours but from what i saw i wasn't a huge fan (i know it's just a beta);

- Cavalry were routing when charging the rear of spearmen

- Heavy infantry (~~2.5x cost of light infantry) were easily routing in a short amount of time 3 units of light infantry (i appreciate they should win, but it's a bit crazy when they only take 10 casualties or so and rout 3 units). By light infantry i mean regular, low armour barbarian spear units

- In the same vein, i think armour may have been buffed slightly too much, light infantry just seems useless in this build. I will play more to try it, but from what i've seen they've taken a huge nerf (they were already pretty weak)

- Heavy infantry seems to be able to traverse the map at almost the same speed as light infantry now

Appreciate this is just a beta and KAM works really hard, just some minor thoughts/disagreements i had with the balance changes, but please keep up the good work man we really do appreciate it

[bibs]

Admittedly i only tried it for a few hours but from what i saw i wasn't a huge fan (i know it's just a beta);

- Cavalry were routing when charging the rear of spearmen

And a few posts earlier I argued that cav (at least light cav) is overpowered. So the opinions differ and everything is relative - especially since you don't give a lot of details (what cav, what spearmen, were the cav already damaged, how long did they stay in melee). IMO it would be really good if we started recording short vids describing the issue we have.

After playing tens of hard battles on this mod, I think your point about heavy infantry defeating 3 units of cheap ones seems perfectly normal to me. I've run into the same problem myself and adapted. Elite infantry are elite for a reason. They are better armored, better equipped, better trained/fed/disciplined and it's historically accurate that they are so much better than the cheap units. 100 roman legionnaires would be able to defeat 300 armed peasants.

[Fluke]

Last night I had a strange battle. I was besieged in a minor town. I set up my defenses, phalanx front, archers to the rear, siege defense structures along the objective entry paths of the town. The enemy forces approached the town and attacked the main path to their front. Only one archer unit bothered to flank to another path and was quickly routed. The rest of the large enemy force marched right up to my main line and didn't attack. They just sat there while their archer units peppered me. Even after I took out all of their archer units, the melee forces (spear and assault infantry) just sat there not attacking. The only unit that attacked my front line was their horse archer general after he expended his ammo. He charged my stakes and the phalanx took care of him. At least 12 units of good melee troops never attacked. I wore them down with my archers and one by one they routed.

I don't believe I have ever seen a battle like this in all my years of playing DEI.

[Frosthammer]

Should bug report about this thread be addressed here or in bug report thread?
Unique Odryson library (last upgrade) does not have intellectual progression trait like previous upgrades.