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Thread: Public Beta Test - 1.2.3f - Battle Stat Overhaul, CAI Overhaul and New Traits System (Updated Dec 18)

  1. #921

    Default Re: Public Beta Test - 1.2.3f - Battle Stat Overhaul, CAI Overhaul and New Traits System (Updated Dec 18)

    Someone may have already mentioned this but for me when playing Epirus I have access to all reforms at the start. I haven't seen this with any other factions and occurs without any other mods

  2. #922
    KAM 2150's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Public Beta Test - 1.2.3f - Battle Stat Overhaul, CAI Overhaul and New Traits System (Updated Dec 18)

    Epirus starts with Thureos reform already unlocked. If you also see thier Thorax units, you have a mod conflict.
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  3. #923

    Default Re: Public Beta Test - 1.2.3f - Battle Stat Overhaul, CAI Overhaul and New Traits System (Updated Dec 18)

    Hi KAM,I wanted to give you my feedback on the mandatory width change you have made, after I have tested this in a few battles:When you start the battle you have your troops lined up with your mandatory depth and width. So that is fine up to the point where the battle actually begins and most importantly in the middle of the battle.In my battle scenarios the AI would have fought hard against my units but then once the 200 unit becomes half of its size or 2/3 of it and I want to reposition it will still keep the depth so the line will be extremely small, however the AI can still keep its long line if they just attack without repositioning. I can do the same.. if I just click attack without repositioning my line would keep the original length..If I was a general of my army and I had a battle with another unit and I sustained a lot of losses I would not tell my unit to form the original depth and a much smaller line when another unit is attacking me with a longer line.. I would be the worst general ever.. so I do not see the point of this mandatory update and ok.. granted now you can cannot beat the AI as easily but it is just not that reasonable.I know you have a submod in the works so the above is not a complaint, just my 2cents given im a battle maniac both in multi and in divide mod.I wonder.. can you not get an option where you can at least keep the length as mandatory? so the original length you have and as the troops deplete within a unit they can still form the original length if we wish to so it can be a match up against AI where they have not reformed yet. this would be good as a longer line against a fresh (non depleted) enemy would both have the same line but deeper so the enemy would still win.Hope it is clear and I make a point. thanks againSCAR

  4. #924
    Maetharin's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Public Beta Test - 1.2.3f - Battle Stat Overhaul, CAI Overhaul and New Traits System (Updated Dec 18)

    Sadly, this is a game function, so it‘s not up to KAM to change this.
    IMO mandatory depth ought to be toned down a bit for more elite or professional units. Also would it be possible to have a modifier for this function dependent on unit experience? Maybe -1 for every 2 chevrons?
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  5. #925

    Default Re: Public Beta Test - 1.2.3f - Battle Stat Overhaul, CAI Overhaul and New Traits System (Updated Dec 2)

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLonelyEmperor View Post
    Little more info might be helpful mate.

    Such as what difficulty are you playing on and what units did you attack it with?
    Sure, I am playing as Antigonidai on Hard Campaign, Medium battle difficulty. My front line is Chalkaspides, Makedonai Hoplitai, having the Thessalikoi Thureophoroi come around from behind, along with general heavy cavalry. Legionnaires sit there in disciplined formation and shield wall, not really attacking, but somehow wearing my lines thin (helps that they eventually break the phalanx line and just stand in the middle). Chalkaspides get virtually no kills, and when flanked, they'll lose 1 or 2 on the charge and then never more. If I've read and understood previous posts correctly there's really nothing to do about it. I'm no master tactician, but I'd like to think I have some sense about me when it comes to the battle side of things.

  6. #926

    Default Re: Public Beta Test - 1.2.3f - Battle Stat Overhaul, CAI Overhaul and New Traits System (Updated Dec 2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Throwerofstones View Post
    Sure, I am playing as Antigonidai on Hard Campaign, Medium battle difficulty. My front line is Chalkaspides, Makedonai Hoplitai, having the Thessalikoi Thureophoroi come around from behind, along with general heavy cavalry. Legionnaires sit there in disciplined formation and shield wall, not really attacking, but somehow wearing my lines thin (helps that they eventually break the phalanx line and just stand in the middle). Chalkaspides get virtually no kills, and when flanked, they'll lose 1 or 2 on the charge and then never more. If I've read and understood previous posts correctly there's really nothing to do about it. I'm no master tactician, but I'd like to think I have some sense about me when it comes to the battle side of things.
    Medium (Or normal the game says I believe) is the difficulty to make sure the battles are balanced so that's a good thing.

    As for what your describing I don't really get why your not getting at least a few more casualties. The only thing I can think of besides terrain possibly being a issue (A uphill charge by cav is often quite pathetic) is that your flanking units may have been exhausted. Can you recall if they were? Units getting tired has caused me to have a similar experience to you, it seems the heavier the cav/inf unit the more it suffers from being tired (At least in the kills department). Have your phalanx getting penetrated by Roman units is a massive no-no. No matter what formation they are in, Roman troops are incredible and Hoplites being out flanked or better yet, getting out of their solid line position nearly always results in you losing men. They REALLY count on holding a solid line formation, so if you want to use them to attack you gotta keep them in formation otherwise a all manner of things may go wrong.

    Regardless it does seem rather sucky that your having this kind of trouble, I'm sure you know most of the basics about flanking enemy units but as long as you keep in mind the following things I don't see flanking and killing being a big issue.
    - Watch your unit exhaustion
    - Keep an eye on terrain
    - If you are charging with cav make sure it is not in heavy foliage
    - Legionnaires are especially weak to armor piercing units (Such as axemen)
    - Tire out the enemy before flanking them for maximum effect

    One final thing.. Make sure you have absolutely no files of ANY previous battle mods you may have used, all it takes is 1 file being left behind to throw balance out of whack. Using DeI with the current beta is the best way to have the best battle experience as the beta has brought about many awesome changes to the fighting mechanics. Maybe even double check your installation is correct?

    Again I'm sure you're aware of these things but they can be easy to forget about in the heat of the moment. Let us know if you make any progress on it all

  7. #927

    Default Re: Public Beta Test - 1.2.3f - Battle Stat Overhaul, CAI Overhaul and New Traits System (Updated Dec 18)

    Pirates are strange, appear and stand in one place robbed. And the rebels in the provinces began to appear with big personal experience, it looks strange. When a crowd of local people with personal experience, such as they have trained all their lives in battles ... Only the commander of the rebels should have the experience of the person.

  8. #928

    Default Re: Public Beta Test - 1.2.3f - Battle Stat Overhaul, CAI Overhaul and New Traits System (Updated Dec 18)

    Hi, please consider buffing weaponsmith bonuses on meele attack conciderably.3 or 5 even 10 % is nothing when the stat is 6 or 7 for examle.The corrent bonuses are for the previous battle statistics formula and dont work as intended

  9. #929

    Default Re: Public Beta Test - 1.2.3f - Battle Stat Overhaul, CAI Overhaul and New Traits System (Updated Dec 2)

    Thanks for the tips, could very well have been some of them were exhausted, the foliage also played a role in one of those units, though the terrain was flat for all others. As for the break in the line, it seems when they are in the shield wall formation they can simple have their way with the phalanx. I guess Hellenic Legionnaires are historically accurate otherwise they wouldn't be in the game, but they don't have an updated unit card, which I found odd, in that; they have the original Rome unit card, silly Hellenic drawing-esque (does this indicate something is amiss?). Another thing I noticed is sometimes the phalanx units will not be engaged in combat unless instructed repeatedly, if I leave them alone sometimes they will go back to being idle although the enemy is standing in front of them.

    As for mod conflicts, do you see any in the data file I posted below? As a side question, is there a better kill animations mod to use with DEI?

    Thanks for your help!

    https://imgur.com/a/XAEzQB0


    p.s. Also on another side note, sabotaging armies with an agent still doesn't prevent them in reinforcing, or?

    haaaaaaa just realized I hadn't downloaded the most recent updated Beta, file size is considerably larger. This should make things interesting when I get a chance at it this weekend!
    Last edited by ♔Greek Strategos♔; December 22, 2018 at 07:59 AM. Reason: Merged posts.

  10. #930

    Default Re: Public Beta Test - 1.2.3f - Battle Stat Overhaul, CAI Overhaul and New Traits System (Updated Dec 18)

    Hi @KAM. Could you please advise on how does the unit battlefield speed bonuses work?


    From what I remember, there are 3 modifiers that influence unit speed on the battlefield:

    1. Trait of one of Carthage families (Hannonids if I remember correctly) - not written in description, but I believe it is 10%, applied to all units.
    2. 10% on highest level of Commander traits (pink one), applied to all units.
    3. Bonus from quality of horses (up to 20%), applied only to cavalry.



    If the above is more or less correct, the questions are how are those bonuses actually applied by the engine to unit speed? And are unit actual stats exactly the same as displayed in unit info in-game, or some less than 1 values not rounded for UI, but are actually used by the engine (i.e. 4.4 speed, 4.8 speed, etc.).


    For example - lets take a Peltast unit with 4 basic speed and Light cavalry unit with 10 basic speed.

    1. 10% increase for infantry (i.e. if Carthage OR Commander trait) - for 4 speed peltast unit, will it stay as 4 (4 * 10% = 4.4, and it is rounded back to 4) or actually be 4.4 (not displayed in unit info, but unit will actually be 0.4 faster than others)?
    2. 20% increase for infantry (Carthage perk + Commander trait) - as it is 4.8 (4 * 20%), will it be 4 (since 4.8 less than 5), rounded to 5 (since closer to 5 than 4), or not displayed in unit info, but 0.8 faster for engine than similar basic speed units?
    3. 3. "Maxim possible speed" for Infantry (4 basic) and Cavalry (10 basic) - am I right that it is 20% for Infantry (10% Carthage perk, 10% Commander trait), which would be 4.8 (as above, unclear how it will be applied - as 4, 5, or actual 4.8 for engine, but not shown in unit info) and 40% for Cavalry (10 basic * 40% = simply 14).



    Overall - the idea is to try a playthrough with quick infantry (peltasts mostly), if they will actually receive 4.4 - 4.8 - 5 speed bonus (to outrun everything else infantry-like). Bonuses to 10 basic speed cavalry are much easier to calculate


    Thank you very much in advance and apologies if the description is somewhat unclear.

  11. #931

    Default Re: Public Beta Test - 1.2.3f - Battle Stat Overhaul, CAI Overhaul and New Traits System (Updated Dec 18)

    Athens has the Logades elite hoplites as a general or regular citizen cavalry, why is there no elite cavalry option for them?

  12. #932

    Default Re: Public Beta Test - 1.2.3f - Battle Stat Overhaul, CAI Overhaul and New Traits System (Updated Dec 18)

    Was Cavalry made extremely cheaper in the latest patch? The Sacred Squadron is now cheaper than the Royal Bodyguard for Macedon, that's about 200 gold decrease in upkeep. WAD?

  13. #933

    Default Re: Public Beta Test - 1.2.3f - Battle Stat Overhaul, CAI Overhaul and New Traits System (Updated Dec 18)

    Quote Originally Posted by Holland_NL View Post
    Athens has the Logades elite hoplites as a general or regular citizen cavalry, why is there no elite cavalry option for them?
    Because Athens had no such thing as "Elite cavalry" during this time period, I believe. They relied a lot on mercenaries, and the the citizen, when they had to fight, fought mostly as hoplites

  14. #934

    Default Re: Public Beta Test - 1.2.3f - Battle Stat Overhaul, CAI Overhaul and New Traits System (Updated Dec 18)

    What about the Athenai Epilektoi Hippeis though? It talks about athens pioneering cavalry and that these horsemen are picked from the finest citizens of the city.

  15. #935

    Default Re: Public Beta Test - 1.2.3f - Battle Stat Overhaul, CAI Overhaul and New Traits System (Updated Dec 2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Throwerofstones View Post
    snippidy
    Firstly, I think sabotaging armies can stop them from reinforcing but doesn't - always - do it. That and I've seen a bug before where just before the battle despite the army stats saying it cannot reinforce a defending sister army it still showed up on the reinforcing screen BUT it actually didn't reinforce. So take from that what you can.

    As for your mod list your first few mods definitely are conflicting IF you have them all activated at once, you are supposed to only have 1 single family mod toggled at a time. That being the family you wish to play as for that particular campaign, I am currently using the Julia family mod with no issues at all fyi
    I can also say that I have seen many times on the forums that camera mods (Campaign and possibly battle cams) can cause severe issues with dei mechanics for some strange reason.
    Finally I would recommend you remove the liberating/sacking submod as the current beta has overhauled the ai incredibly and in general more liberations and sackings are happening (Depending on the culture of the conqueror) and that also may cause you issues (Unless Dresden himself has said it should be fine of course).

    As for your other sub mods I don't really know if they can cause issues as many of them I have not heard of. I am playing on what I thought was a heavily modded campaign (About a dozen mods) but it seems like you are using many yourself. Besides the mods I already listed above I would assume they are fine however if you are constantly bumping into issues than that is almost certainly the reason why. And yes definitely keep your beta patch updated!

    EDIT: Also I have not looked into using animation mods for battles as I have also seen on TWC somewhere that they can cause serious issues with the new dei battle changes. Again another submod I'd recommend you stay away from just to be safe.

  16. #936

    Default Re: Public Beta Test - 1.2.3f - Battle Stat Overhaul, CAI Overhaul and New Traits System (Updated Dec 18)

    Animation mods often override some of the battle variables, which can seriously ruin the battle balance. Camera mods often include a script entry that overwrites the scripting file for a campaign, which overrides the one provided by DEi. DEI already includes a camera mod.

  17. #937

    Default Re: Public Beta Test - 1.2.3f - Battle Stat Overhaul, CAI Overhaul and New Traits System (Updated Dec 18)

    Quote Originally Posted by Holland_NL View Post
    What about the Athenai Epilektoi Hippeis though? It talks about athens pioneering cavalry and that these horsemen are picked from the finest citizens of the city.
    Oh I completely forgot this unit ! Yeah, true, maybe that having an Athenian general with this elite cav unit would be a good idea then !

  18. #938

    Default Re: Public Beta Test - 1.2.3f - Battle Stat Overhaul, CAI Overhaul and New Traits System (Updated Dec 18)

    The best from their citizens wouldn't necessarily mean that they'd be elite though, just better than the rest. They probably would have good equipment though, maybe in a limited number.

  19. #939
    KAM 2150's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Public Beta Test - 1.2.3f - Battle Stat Overhaul, CAI Overhaul and New Traits System (Updated Dec 18)

    They are not general unit as they are not starting unit but they represent later stage kf cavakry changes in Greece. Due to how reform scripts work, adding them later on is not as easy as it may sound.
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  20. #940
    VektorT's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Public Beta Test - 1.2.3f - Battle Stat Overhaul, CAI Overhaul and New Traits System (Updated Dec 2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dresden View Post
    Update Dec 17

    - Thracian Noble Peltasts buffed a bit
    YEEEEEEY!!! MUH PELTASTS!! Thanks, guys!
    On the other hand Maedi peltasts got slower... but that's ok, I thought they was kinda OP peltasts for their pop tier anyway.
    Last edited by VektorT; December 22, 2018 at 02:41 PM.

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