Pre-order DLC announced

[PikeStance]

I am generally hoping they create a mechanic that mimics the Mandate of Heaven.

Over time, agricultural holdings decrease, and landless peasants increase, leading to general unrest. Triggers that spawn natural disasters. if this is coupled with external threat and a series of military defeats, then losing the mandate becomes real. Suddenly the perfect game just became a hellish experience as you try to restore order and keep the Mandate.

[captainkrunch]

I think people vastly overstate how much the CCP cares about certain things. As long as you don't cover the 20th century I'd say you are good, maybe procede with a bit of caution but not that much, maybe a bit more caution for the late Qing.

[Daruwind]

I think people vastly overstate how much the CCP cares about certain things. As long as you don't cover the 20th century I'd say you are good, maybe procede with a bit of caution but not that much, maybe a bit more caution for the late Qing.

Yeah, but you never know. Let´s say it is good precaution because IF China decide to ban something it will be probably too late to negotiate and change things, or it would cost money you could otherwise spend elsewhere. I just hear a lot about how filmmakers has to do certain steps to get into china, can only imagine games might need similar treatment...especially lately as China was trying to stop PC gaming. I read some articles in that fashion..

What I mean is,even if campaign map is not moddable as long as there is Japan,Korea,Taiwan you are still risking some modders will run havoks with ideas. It is kind similar how Games Workshop is probably preventing mods of other IPs from TW Warhammer workshop...But I would honestly love such expanded map. I like these remote areas, underdog factions...it is adding into long run of game. My favourite start is Teclis in WH2.

[captainkrunch]

Well, having Japan and Taiwan would be a bit extra. Japan at this time did have some diplomatic contact with China but it was just that, diplomatic, they were not exactly a power capable of projecting power, nor were they in China's interests basically ever, I have been listening to an excellent Chinese History podcast(would highly recommend) and it is currently up to the Tang, and not once has China ever considered apparently invading Japan so far(though after the battle of Baekgang/Hakusukinoe Japan did fear the opposite to no avail). Taiwan's strongest combatant in this time period is disease, otherwise there really isn't much else interesting going on there. Korea would be interesting though still not necessarily needed. You posted the map by that one redditor showing all of the big problems yourself on the main thread, and it shows my real biggest problems that not even all of Han China is included. Before we talk about korea we need to see that in game. If we got Korea and Inner Mongolia for the Xianbei in game that would be awesome, but I'd much rather they prioritize on getting all of Han China in game.

[PikeStance]

My guess and my hope is that the map represents the extent you can expand. Once China is united then maintaining what you have from external and internal threats as well as natural events and potential public disorder, would be more than enough for you to handle. In other words you have the time not the resources to go looking by for trouble. It will find you. One thing to note is that China was more often that not disunify than unify. Unity is a feat all to itself. Chinese scholars tend to emphasize this unity and even western scholars tend to focus on it as well, but at least in China it’s a convenient narrative; aftrall the CCP must be enduring as past “dynasties”

[Dumanthis]

Pre-order DLC is the only kind of DLC what I am furiously against because it confirms the accusations of cutting content out that is already there and putting it behind a payment. Might pre-order the game however to get it cheaper because I will probably get it anyway so can't stand proud in actions against this kind of marketing. DLC is otherwise is acceptable to me when they create more content to the game and make possible the games further development by having a monetary basing.

[14182]

These DLC warlords remind me of the Pirates and Raiders Culture Pack in Rome 2. Yeah, their rosters and culture should be a bit different from the other generic short-lived factions, but they will still be half-baked factions comparing to the 3 main characters (Wei, Shu, Wu).

I would rather play as Liu Yan or his son Liu Zhang than the Yellow Turban rebels. At least this Liu's family lasted longer in history, and I can beat the hell out of Liu Bei when he wants to invade Yizhou.

[PikeStance]

Well, DLC's are here to stay. It is way too profitable for companies to produce base games (shell) and then create additional content.

[SturmChurro]

Well, DLC's are here to stay. It is way too profitable for companies to produce base games (shell) and then create additional content.

That is definitely the model Total War is going as of late, especially Warhammer. They are literal shells at release. Specifically designed to be a basic experience - then get the DLC out. The best time to buy Total War games nowadays is like a couple years after the release date, apparently.

[Daruwind]

That is definitely the model Total War is going as of late, especially Warhammer. They are literal shells at release. Specifically designed to be a basic experience - then get the DLC out. The best time to buy Total War games nowadays is like a couple years after the release date, apparently.

True, but what better currently working model we can get? I don´t want any lootboxes and such nonsense. I don´t want games cancelled because they are not selling enough like Mass Effect Andromeda.

If we look at DLC evolution in TWs, CA walked a long path from Empire,Napoleon...Current model with a lot FLCs. Looking at WH1, game got completely free faction + 4 LLs (Bretonnia, Isabela, Grombrindal, Vlad, Wurrzag) amd WH2 so far is getting at least 4 LLs with unique abilities. Similar thing with R2, whole Ancestral Update/Family trees were made free for everybody similarly to to Allegiance Patch for ToB. If CA was like EA, no Allegiance patch would ever happened..

Not saying everything is without problems or there is not better way, still there are really worse paths. Like Yellow Turban Rebellion, you can wait for reviews and then decide...better than nothing. Especially after Warriors of Chaos and Norsca problems

I haven´t seen here any workable solution. Simple solutions like no DLC etc. are not working in current times...

[PikeStance]

Without DLCs, then companies would release different editions of the same game at full price annually or bi-annually. I think this is worse. Just look at the complaints that console games receive or even Football manager which is annually released. You pay a premium price for a product that is a simple addon to the previous edition.

Paradox is far worse with release base shell games, but they give away a lof free content with each update. There is a balance there. THis is a different era of gaming. This is what it is. Do what I do, wait for sales.

[SturmChurro]

Don't get me wrong overall, I am pretty indifferent about how the DLC's are handled nowadays, and I have literally no opinion on this specific DLC I know nothing about anything historical or fantastical for this region/era. I think things could be handled better. I just think they intentionally release the games as basic as possible nowadays. I don't necessarily know what they could do to do it better - other than releasing a finished, fleshed-out product. They make more money with how they are doing it now, obviously. At least they aren't on the level of Paradox games - I couldn't keep up with all the DLC's on the Paradox games I owned, so I just got frustrated and stopped playing them. On top of being extremely difficult to keep up to date without spending money every other month.

[Daruwind]

SturmChurro My comment was not meant to disagree with you or opose you, just continuing discussion :-)

You are completely right about Paradox for example. I own CKII too but haven´t played in years because i cannot decide which DLC are must,good,worth a try..I like WH Mortal Empire way. All DLCs on one map,all toys to play with or against :-)

How I see it, if CA wanted to release complete game, the prize would be too high (magic 60 bucks barrier) and it will take a long time to finish production cycle. Plus overall content would be smaller. Same with preorder DLC, if I should choose whether to save 10 bucks or not and get a more content, i will always choose the later. (if the content is worth the 10 bucks for mem and there is big plus for CA that preorder content is not locked forever, later it can be bought even with discout as normal DLC so actually 75% saving from 10 bucks... 2,5 bucks at max down the line)

[Huberto]

That is definitely the model Total War is going as of late, especially Warhammer. They are literal shells at release. Specifically designed to be a basic experience - then get the DLC out. The best time to buy Total War games nowadays is like a couple years after the release date, apparently.

Look no farther than the Warhammer crowd on TW Reddit if you want an explanation for this. When 3 months go by without DLC there are scores of threads begging, cursing, crying, whinging -- all for moar DLC. These people behave like addicts. They literally have addict's craving for "new content. "

Why does this matter to historical fans? It's the liklihood that these DLC-centric practices will fully infiltrate CA's historical titles. Heretofore we've gotten campaign DLC mostly (and faction garbage that is quite easy to ignore). If CA takes its cue from Warhammer, we'll see games radically scaled back at release. The temptation to carve up their games must be quite high. I think loot boxes are a great analogy for this. EA had a great thing going with it's FIFA Ultimate Team and tried to export it to other titles, most notably Battlefront 2. The result? Controversy and backlash, but also profits, stock price appreciation and $30 million pay outs for the two top executives. Greed is...good for greed.

[Daruwind]

Look no farther than the Warhammer crowd on TW Reddit if you want an explanation for this. When 3 months go by without DLC there are scores of threads begging, cursing, crying, whinging -- all for moar DLC. These people behave like addicts. They literally have addict's craving for "new content. "

Why does this matter to historical fans? It's the liklihood that these DLC-centric practices will fully infiltrate CA's historical titles. Heretofore we've gotten campaign DLC mostly (and faction garbage that is quite easy to ignore). If CA takes its cue from Warhammer, we'll see games radically scaled back at release.

By all means I hope CA will keep current quality of WH faction/campaign DLCs like Norsca, Tomb Kings for history titles as well! That´s completely new level in comparison with older R2/Attila faction packs! They are worth every penny!

So what exactly are you saying? That quality DLCs with lot FLCs content is BAD? That´s how I should read it?

[zoner16]

Look no farther than the Warhammer crowd on TW Reddit if you want an explanation for this. When 3 months go by without DLC there are scores of threads begging, cursing, crying, whinging -- all for moar DLC. These people behave like addicts. They literally have addict's craving for "new content. "

Why does this matter to historical fans? It's the liklihood that these DLC-centric practices will fully infiltrate CA's historical titles. Heretofore we've gotten campaign DLC mostly (and faction garbage that is quite easy to ignore). If CA takes its cue from Warhammer, we'll see games radically scaled back at release. The temptation to carve up their games must be quite high.

While DLCs are not some kind of unconditional good, if you're hoping for any game that would never require DLC because everything that could be in it was in it at launch, you're forever going to be disappointed. It is just not feasible to make something like that for only $60 a pop. There will always be new units, factions, or campaigns worth adding that would have overloaded production if they were part of the base schedule.

The main questions are usually if there's enough in the base game to justify it's $60 price tag, and if what's being saved for DLC is too important to the base experience to be left out until later. Those are questions that need to be answered on a case by case basis.

Otherwise, the DLC structure for the majority of TW games is pretty decent overall. No mechanics are cut out (unlike paradox), and you can still fight the new factions, just not play as them.

[SturmChurro]

The biggest problem is how basic they actually make a game at launch. The way they do things now isn't too bad. Warhammer 1 more so than Warhammer 2, but both are filled with placeholders - their historical games are full of placeholders as well. At least they are getting more refined. We'll have to wait and see how this game is handled, but it seems like they are doing things very similar with this game.

[Huberto]

By all means I hope CA will keep current quality of WH faction/campaign DLCs like Norsca, Tomb Kings for history titles as well! That´s completely new level in comparison with older R2/Attila faction packs! They are worth every penny!

So what exactly are you saying? That quality DLCs with lot FLCs content is BAD? That´s how I should read it?

No, no, no. Historical games should NOT be focused on unit roster updates and individual leaders ("legendary lords" WTF). It doesn't work for historical titles, as we're all about to find out with TW:3K and its soon to be revealed MOBA themed "hero packs." Faction Packs don't make good historical content either, unless it would be adding something VERY substantial, like India to the TWR2 map.

What makes good historical content are game systems of economy, diplomacy, politics, war, new campaigns like Charlemagne that reuse assets, and new maps and cities to fight over. Some of this is similar to what Paradox does with EUIV updates and what we saw for the first time with the political and family tree updates to TWR2. If CA focused instead solely on bringing new factions and units it would be incredibly dull DLC that adds very little to the game unless one is desperate to roleplay as a specific faction (or they start removing major factions unless you pay extra. Mods can do skins and units, make minor factions playable, etc. Mods can't put a political system or a walled Jersulaem, a family tree , or a new campaign map.

Warhammer DLC is very focused on models and units. But part of that means that the popularity of Warhammer faction DLC by its community as a genuine threat to the evolution of Total War. It would be a huge mistake to make these the focus of historical content, and I fear CA may be doing just that with 3K.

Alternatively, instead of faction and hero packs, CA could decide instead to limit features of historical games, and add them over time as paid DLC, not unlike Paradox does. This amounts to single player games-as-service model, to dribble content out and keep the fanbase wanting more, stimulating a Pavlovian response by fans for frequent "updates" like Warhammer. This could be the coming reality for all Total War titles, and every nerdgasm or rage fit that Warhammer fans stage over DLC only encourages CA/SEGA essentially to feed the beast by changing its game development practices.

As such, Warhammer may be the single largest threat to continued positive evolution of Total War, and especially historical Total War. It exemplifies further dumbing down, to focus on unique faction mechanics, unit variety and MOBA tactics, and heroes, streamlining and dribbling content and getting fans to salivate about the next update that's just around the corner. It should be self-evident this would come at the expense of historical authenticity and strategically challenging game play, however much some "fans" like it.

Just my .02 of course!

[zoner16]

Total War has been doing faction and unit packs for years and I don't see any issue with it. Having new campaign experiences from new start positions with new units and playstyles to change how the campaign plays out is far more preferable to me than adding a couple more sliders and buttons to everything, like they did with the Rome 2 updates. Not that I wasn't happy with the Rome 2 updates, but they weren't something I was going to pay for, not on their own. The family trees and revamped politics was just kind of alright, since it wasn't as tightly integrated with the rest of the game, as the other systems weren't designed with them in mind. They'd have to come with some serious additions, i.e. factions and rosters, in order to get me to put down money.

Campaign packs are great too, but with the exception of FOTS, none of them are things I play nearly as much as the grand campaign, and I'd like to keep getting new factions and armies that give me new stories to tell in the GC. I also like that if I don't care for them, I can just not buy them or wait for a sale without the other GC campaigns being gimped. Not only does this sometimes save me money, but it makes it easier to bring new friends into Total War, since I can tell them that they don't have to buy the DLC to get a great campaign experience, unlike most Paradox games.

Pricing and whether or not certain factions should have been in the base game over others is a different conversation.

[PikeStance]

^ I agree with this...

I have never bought and I do not plan to ever by Caesar in Gaul or Hannibal at the gates. I do plan on buying Empire Divided and Republic. I already have Wrath of Sparta. I also buy the faction packs mainly because of money and not enough time to play it yet. I always by on sale because of that. I am in no rush to buy anything.