Cornell U. welcome package: check your privilege

[Prodromos]

Disingenuous garbage.

"We should keep poor people poor because it's better for their soul and we know what's best for them, rich people will make the sacrifice because someone has to, we can't all be so lucky as the poor and oppressed"

This is one of worst things I've ever heard from someone who claims to be religious.

Furthermore, the part you claimed was "most important" supports my argument over yours.

The idea of hardship building character is repeated throughout the Bible. No one says poor people "must" stay poor, but only that poverty and hardship in general can come with many benefits for one's soul, in much the same way that exercise and study, while unpleasant at the time, eventually pay off dividends. That's why many [smart] rich people try to simulate a life of hardship for their children, so as to avoid spoiling them. It's also why men are stronger than women. An easy life free of struggle and discipline is more of a curse than a privilege. But everyone thinks the grass is greener on the other side.

[conon394]

Sure, if you can refute my anecdotal evidence about white immigrants. Maybe I was mistaken to think that there were a bunch of scholarships for non-white races for which I wasn't eligible to apply, while all non-white people were able to apply for all white-people scholarships (which don't even exist as a concept). Can you even imagine the fallout if there was a scholarship only for white people, or better yet, male white people?

I just did provide links

I can see you have a chip on your shoulder and if you had a lot loans that really means you likely ran the game wrong.

I gotta tell you honestly, it's pretty hard for 1st generation immigrants. We don't understand the system. We have to figure it all out as we go. My mother had no idea about the system, so it was basically up to me to figure it out

That is simply an affect of generalized problem for anyone who does not have a parent or close relative who got through college successfully and even more so for being shocked by the graduate system. Its got little to do with being white or brown. Just if somebody can guide you through the system.

I like you to define what you think are immigrant scholarships? Are you confusing say the foreign graduate students who are either wealthy or funded by their government and a US university is charging the max out of them.

Given my experience, I really do feel that non-white immigrants are treated like this rare species that needs protection so that it doesn't go extinct. It is one of the most pathetic components of the American system.

Among immediate family I can count maybe 30 or 40 degrees and lot time in college by a lot of people I can't really recall seeing or hearing about any bias against white immigrant with respect to aid. I would simply reiterate I think you just suffered from not knowing the game. That hurts a lot people.

Unless you willing to talk about your family wealth and income and where you went to school its hard to have realistic conversation and perhaps understand what aid you think you did not get for being white.

[Diamat]

I just did provide links

I can see you have a chip on your shoulder and if you had a lot loans that really means you likely ran the game wrong.

Fact is, I never once received a consultation about white people scholarships. They only existed for "minorities." And I'm not talking about grad school. By the time I entered my PhD program, I had already proven myself and got everything paid for by the uni. But it was more difficult to get started as an undergraduate.

Its got little to do with being white or brown.

Bravo. Exactly my point. So don't give extra opportunities to blacks and hispanics. It's not fair in an equal-opportunity-driven and merit-based system. It leads to lower quality graduates and lower quality research.

I like you to define what you think are immigrant scholarships? Are you confusing say the foreign graduate students who are either wealthy or funded by their government and a US university is charging the max out of them.

No. I'm a permanent resident of the United States (green card). Thus, even though I'm a legal immigrant, I couldn't get the scholarships the Mexicans and blacks could get (not to mention the illegal ones in places like California...sanctuary city stupid crap). Talk about second-rate citizen...

Among immediate family I can count maybe 30 or 40 degrees and lot time in college by a lot of people I can't really recall seeing or hearing about any bias against white immigrant with respect to aid. I would simply reiterate I think you just suffered from not knowing the game. That hurts a lot people.

Which is why it is too bad no one really cares about the situation of white immigrants. The idea that white immigrants could be discriminated against by blacks and Mexicans seems ridiculous to many Americans, but yeah... I suppose this is why, when I was still in high school in Texas, I got mad when Mexicans or blacks called me white, because I didn't see myself as that. They associated slavery, etc., with just looking white, which I had absolutely no responsibility for. For a German, this is strange. For a German, this racial consciousness is strange. It's absolute irrelevant. Treat people on the basis of equal opportunity and merit. Don't make them feel like a group.

Why would there be a scholarship specific to a group of people that are already relatively well off? You seem to be mistaken about what the idea of scholarship aims for. There are scholarships that specifically target students from Eastern Europe though. The idea is not to target race, but the chance of affording college tuition. You're basically objecting to it because a scholarship that targets groups that don't have the same kind of resources as you do exist. You already have a better chance of getting a regular need, merit or athletic scholarship. Why do you even require one that's tailored for you?

I'm not a group. I'm an individual. I should be treated like an individual, regardless of my race. Affirmative action is discrimination.

[Genghis Skahn]

There is affirmative action and there is nothing wrong with it.

Oh, but there is certainly something wrong with the current system of affirmative action in the US:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/02/u...americans.html

It was particularly disturbing, Mr. Jia said, when classmates with lower scores than his — but who were not Asian-American, like him — were admitted to those Ivy League institutions.
“My gut reaction was that I was super disillusioned by how the whole system was set up,” Mr. Jia, 19, said.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-...sian-americans

The lawsuit alleges that Harvard effectively employs quotas on the number of Asians admitted and holds them to a higher standard than whites. At selective colleges, Asians are demographically overrepresented minorities, but they are underrepresented relative to the applicant pool. Since the nineteen-nineties, the share of Asians in Harvard’s freshman class has remained stable, at between sixteen and nineteen per cent, while the percentage of Asians in the U.S. population more than doubled. A 2009 Princeton study showed that Asians had to score a hundred and forty points higher on the S.A.T. than whites to have the same chance of admission to top universities. The discrimination suit survived Harvard’s motion to dismiss last month and is currently pending.

https://nypost.com/2018/05/25/asians...mative-action/

But despite their numbers, racial discrimination may still be holding Asian-Americans back.


Affirmative action has always been sold on the proposition that it is meant to raise the floor for minorities who have faced discrimination and, in some instances, still do. There is no question that the pervasive, state-sponsored discrimination against blacks has had a lasting legacy. Discrimination against Hispanics was never as systemic as that against blacks, but many Hispanics, especially new immigrants and their children, still encounter obstacles to social, economic and educational achievement.


But so, traditionally, have Asian-Americans — and unlike the case with blacks and Hispanics, their race appears to be a factor in explaining why they are currently not admitted to elite universities commensurate with their academic achievements.


Nagai shows that at both Harvard and MIT, Asian admissions seem to have hit a ceiling over the past 20 years or even declined. At MIT, Asian admissions peaked in 1995 at 29 percent and have declined slightly since, to 26 percent in 2016. At Harvard, admissions for Asians hit a high of 21 percent in 1993, dropped and have remained nearly constant at 17 percent since then. A suit against Harvard by Asian students alleging racial discrimination is set to be argued later this year.

By contrast, Nagai’s analysis shows that Caltech — which does not use race as a factor in admissions — has seen a steady increase in the number of Asians admitted over the past two decades. In 2016, 43 percent of students admitted to Caltech were Asians, but more importantly, the trend line since the late 1990s has been going up almost every year. Caltech has not applied a ceiling to Asian admissions, which is why it has more than twice the percentage of such students as Harvard and 65 percent more than MIT. (As an interesting aside, Caltech manages to admit a large percentage of Hispanic students, 12 percent, even without using race or ethnicity as a plus factor.)

Isn’t it time we quit pretending that using race in college admissions is morally acceptable because it helps some minorities? Asians have suffered enough discrimination over the years; they shouldn’t face it now in the name of improving diversity.

...So, in theory, you don't even need affirmative action or racial quotas of any kind to increase campus diversity(which is the whole point of affirmative action)? Pretty interesting stuff.

As well, as was discussed by Thomas Sowell on a famous episode of William Buckley's old TV show, the affirmative action movement also caused a large rift between Jews and Blacks...Why exactly that is, I can't seem to recall or don't fully understand, but Sowell and a Jewish intellectual(who was Sowell's debate opponent) both seemed to agree that affirmative action policies had divided Jews and Blacks in some way.

Crazy idea: stop racial quotas for...Anything, period. Sounds like a better recipe for fairness than whatever the hell they're doing right now, because the current system definitely has something wrong with it, if students, be they White, Asian or purple, are being rejected on the basis of their skin color(which is clearly still happening).

The affirmative action exists to be able to level the play field

Yeah, it's not doing that, sorry. That was the ideal of affirmative action, but ideals and reality are very different things. In reality, affirmative action has made a very unequal playing field for Asian-Americans, and in some cases, White students as well(the same student group filing the lawsuit against Harvard with relation to Asian-American discrimination also argues that the U of Texas at Austin is biased against White applicants).

EDIT:

https://www.cnn.com/2017/08/03/opini...ein/index.html

The big surprise in the study was that Asians had to score significantly higher than whites, as well as blacks and Hispanics. Despite having a higher average SAT score, Asians have lower odds of admission than do "comparable whites."

In what world is the above considered fair?

[conon394]

So find me a scholarship based on race alone for anyone.

[Aexodus]

So find me a scholarship based on race alone for anyone.

https://usascholarships.com/black-scholarships/

There’s these ones.

Now find me the same thing for white students.

[Harith]

So find me a scholarship based on race alone for anyone.

I mean, there were plenty of scholarships that were race based or required you to be of certain race to obtain.

I am, on the basis of principle, against such scholarships by the university itself. I do not mind however if a synagogue offers scholarships to Jewish students exclusively or any other private organization/ association/ entity.

Plus, I know from first hand experience US universities discriminate based on background. I know because I applied to US universities and was rejected because my "group" was over-represented. Meanwhile, my somali classmate got into Stanford, Yale (both of which I didn't get into) even though we were objectively of similar qualifications.

[conon394]

Construct your search on ethnicity and you get a better result.

For example

https://www.scholarships.com/financi...-scholarships/

in particular I like this one (being well all polish by decent)

Scholarship Description
The Constitution of The Polish American Arts Association (PAAA) exhorts our organization “to support and promote the higher educational and scholastic endeavors of our youth.” In accordance with this stated Mission, the Scholarship Grant Committee announces the opening of the 17th season of the PAAA Scholarship Grant Program.


Eligibility:
-Applicant must be an American citizen, either by birth or naturalization. Consideration will also be given to 10-year green card permanent residents looking to become citizens
-Applicant must be of Polish or Polish-American descent and demonstrate their descent with a family tree
-Applicant must be a legal resident of Washington, DC, Maryland or Virginia, or be a full-time student at an institution in one of these jurisdictions
-Applicant must be a full-time college student, currently enrolled at an accredited college/university in the United States, with confirmed future attendance at an institution in the Summer/Fall
-Applicant must describe his/her involvement with the Polish community – past, present or future

Hmm biased against not polacks and against people from most US states... Last time I left a family wake back in Detroit I saw a lot drunk people but all those Polish folk were very white indeed. Guess that German accent would not play well.

Private merit scholarships can be constructed in almost anyway the private founder wants. They are also almost never going to get you a free ride.

But hey have fun with the list Insidious Jews and Ukrainians and Asians all with vile biased scholarships. Should I bother to find the ones where you have to be Catholic or LDS (kinda white there in BYU land) or be in agriculture and have been in 4H or FFA (*)


This thread has taken a couple twists and turns. I Find the OP story likely a fake or deeply misleading one . But I have no real sympathy for Diamat's complaint. He provides no information on School or area of study was in state or out of state what was his financial background. There is no way to evaluate his complaint. If he really wanted a free ride on scholarships he should have worked on his 3 point shot. Otherwise what was his calculated family share at his university and what was their aid package. If was all loans than maybe he should have looked elsewhere. But as I pointed out and others have neither his story nor mine amount to evidence. But I still can't recall ever running into some minority immigrants getting full ride in college who were not doing it on an athletic scholarship. Besides also I would like clarification of his status - foreign and green card students are often seen as cash cows by US universities.

* anyway for the religious bias https://www.scholarships.com/financi...-scholarships/

[Aexodus]

Not all whites are Polish. While I grant you, yes there you have a something the polish ethnicity, there is nothing for the white race as a whole (the white race as a phrase sounds so strange to me but anyway) but there is for all blacks. In fact the vast majority are for non-whites in the link you posted. Personally I don’t see where the merit is in ethnic or racial descent.

The fact is, no-one from Europe considers themselves ‘white’. They consider themselves Polish, German, English or Spanish. So the Americanisms of race are really quite weird.

[Diamat]

@conon: You still have to find me a whites-only scholarship. If you can't find it, then you should admit that there exists an element of racism targeted at white people. The scholarships available for Poles or Ukrainians are great to see, but they are incredibly few and far between for those groups, and they are specifically limited to a tiny group (a Pole can't apply for the Ukrainian one, etc.). Religious ones don't really figure into our discussion, because it has nothing to do with race.

And as for my personal background, this is mostly private information I don't like to share with the internet. As I have already hinted, I did my undergrad degree in Texas, where I was a resident and hence received in-state tuition. And no, green card holders are not treated as cash cows, because they are treated the same as citizens (with in-state tuition etc.). Only foreign students on a student visa are treated this way. But I don't see how any of this is relevant to this discussion, because my point simply was that whites are discriminated against, making it especially hard for white immigrants.

[Cyclops]

@conon: You still have to find me a whites-only scholarship. ...

MFW poles are black.

Seriously please argue in good faith, he's knocked you out of the park and you reply like this?

[PointOfViewGun]

Oh, but there is certainly something wrong with the current system of affirmative action in the US:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/02/u...americans.html
https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-...sian-americans
https://nypost.com/2018/05/25/asians...mative-action/
...So, in theory, you don't even need affirmative action or racial quotas of any kind to increase campus diversity(which is the whole point of affirmative action)? Pretty interesting stuff.
As well, as was discussed by Thomas Sowell on a famous episode of William Buckley's old TV show, the affirmative action movement also caused a large rift between Jews and Blacks...Why exactly that is, I can't seem to recall or don't fully understand, but Sowell and a Jewish intellectual(who was Sowell's debate opponent) both seemed to agree that affirmative action policies had divided Jews and Blacks in some way.
Crazy idea: stop racial quotas for...Anything, period. Sounds like a better recipe for fairness than whatever the hell they're doing right now, because the current system definitely has something wrong with it, if students, be they White, Asian or purple, are being rejected on the basis of their skin color(which is clearly still happening).
Yeah, it's not doing that, sorry. That was the ideal of affirmative action, but ideals and reality are very different things. In reality, affirmative action has made a very unequal playing field for Asian-Americans, and in some cases, White students as well(the same student group filing the lawsuit against Harvard with relation to Asian-American discrimination also argues that the U of Texas at Austin is biased against White applicants).
EDIT:
https://www.cnn.com/2017/08/03/opini...ein/index.html
In what world is the above considered fair?

None of what you quoted explains why affirmative action is the culprit there. Hence, then, arguing as if it is makes no sense.

That’s not what he means. You’re talking about whites as a group, he’s talking about whites as individuals.
None of that 65.2% figure got that scholarship because they were white.

No, it was what he meant. He has access to a much bigger pool to get his chance at a scholarship. Whether we talk about whites as a group or as individuals means nothing.

@conon: You still have to find me a whites-only scholarship. If you can't find it, then you should admit that there exists an element of racism targeted at white people. The scholarships available for Poles or Ukrainians are great to see, but they are incredibly few and far between for those groups, and they are specifically limited to a tiny group (a Pole can't apply for the Ukrainian one, etc.). Religious ones don't really figure into our discussion, because it has nothing to do with race.

And as for my personal background, this is mostly private information I don't like to share with the internet. As I have already hinted, I did my undergrad degree in Texas, where I was a resident and hence received in-state tuition. And no, green card holders are not treated as cash cows, because they are treated the same as citizens (with in-state tuition etc.). Only foreign students on a student visa are treated this way. But I don't see how any of this is relevant to this discussion, because my point simply was that whites are discriminated against, making it especially hard for white immigrants.

Why? Why does there have to be a whites-only scholarship? This is like saying its racist to help black people fight institutional racism because you're not helping white people fight institutional racism that doesn't exist for them.

If we are to talk about personal anecdotes I also have stories of how non-white people, despite being some of the top students in their class, not being able to get scholarship because of their nationality. Lack of being white didn't matter there.

[the_mango55]

White people can indeed get minority scholarships at historically black colleges

http://www.collegescholarships.org/s...ship-guide.htm

[Aexodus]

White people can indeed get minority scholarships at historically black colleges

http://www.collegescholarships.org/s...ship-guide.htm

Go back a page on that website, and you can see this. It’s quite clear over 90% of discrimination is for non-whites and women. There’s entire sections for native americans, blacks and hispanics, women, and gays.

The only mention of ‘white males’ is this afterthought

Even white males qualify for legitimate minority scholarships in some instances.

which implies in itself that the discrimination is really for other groups in its wording. Also, only two of the five examples specify whites.

The existence of satirical white scholarships should also tell of how much a joke ‘white scholarships’ is.

[Aexodus]

The funny thing is that after they repealed it, not only were overall college seats lost, more seats were disproportionately given towards Asian. Whites were equally represented before and after. Go figure.

Maybe the Asians just study harder...

Supreme court ruled to uphold affirmative action. They may review that vote but ultimately it's a program which has proven effective.

Has it been effective at getting the best students?

Do we all live in a ‘guild’ of Asians, a ‘fellowship’ of blacks, the teutonic order of caucasians? Why do they need to be equal?

That's not something you can say. Cultural bias and ingroup bias is an incredibly powerful force, no scientist would support your conclusion there. You may be able to say they didn't get it explicitly because they were white, that's correct.

Well that’s all I care about.

Before cultural and racial scholarships existed whites as the dominant group with the most rights, most wealth and most free time regularly claimed almost all of it perpetuating inequality ad-infinitum.

Ok. So what does that matter now. It’s like that in every country in the world.

Like why should I, if I were a white immigrant, be discriminated against because I look similar to white Americans of yesteryear.

[Genghis Skahn]

The funny thing is that after they repealed it, not only were overall college seats lost, more seats were disproportionately given towards Asian.

Asian students consistently score higher than Whites, Blacks and Hispanics on the SATs as a group. It really isn't surprising, that when affirmative action is ended, they end up taking a dominant role in student enrollment. That's because universities will probably make more meritocratic choices on student enrollment, without being shackled by what % of X race is in the student body, thus allowing more students in based purely on their grades(I'm excluding "cash-cow" student enrollments here), which usually means more Asians because they, as a racial group, tend to do very well academically-speaking.

BS.

Calling that BS would also imply that I either misquoted or made up that conversation between Sowell and said Jewish intellectual. I didn't:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5BMGYkVdX8

From 0:37-0:55

"Nothing has separated the Jewish and Black community more in the last generation than this issue of affirmative action. Which, for critical Jews, is termed quotas, rather than affirmative action..."

Of course, things have changed since this interview--the mere fact that I mentioned William Buckley should let you know how dated this conversation is.

Supreme court ruled to uphold affirmative action. They may review that vote but ultimately it's a program which has proven effective.

I'm aware of that--I never insinuated that it was illegal. I suggested that it wasn't fair to Asians--which it isn't, since it's a well-known fact that Asians have to outscore whites, blacks and hispanics on their SATs to receive equal chances of acceptance. Why do you think so many Asian-American groups have opposed this policy(especially the policy of negative action used to cap Asian student numbers)?

https://www.nationalreview.com/magaz...ation-problem/

A study of ten schools by Princeton’s Thomas Espenshade and Alexandria Walton Radford found that, at private schools in 1997, “an Asian candidate with a 1250 SAT [out of 1600] would be just as likely to be admitted” as “a white student with an SAT score of 1110.” At public schools, Espenshade and Radford measured the “Asian disadvantage” in ACT points and put it at 3.4 out of 36.

I'm sorry, but AA is a program designed to end discrimination. It doesn't discriminate in regards to white or asian students, they simply do not get advantages due to it. Asian students still often end up getting hardship advantages because affirmative action also takes into account socio-economic factors. Furthermore it's important to note that it was harvard, the best school in the world which started using affirmative action under the belief that it was factors beyond the control of individuals which made linear merit measurements irrelevant when assessing the quality of their candidates. In a word, they cared about how far a person could jump, not whether they could reach the same height standing on a stool.

All well and good, but that still doesn't justify Harvard's use of negative action in an effort to cap Asian enrollment rates(which they're being sued over, with the plaintiffs being supported by the DOJ), nor does it justify why Asians must score higher in the SATs than the other big 3 racial groups of the US. It also doesn't justify why Asian students are pressured to "appear different" in college admission interviews, since so many of their fellow applicants are high achievers. There's nothing fair about that practice, hence why so many Asian-American groups oppose this policy, or at the very least want to see it reformed(important to note that AA wasn't really created with Asians in mind--it was mostly created with African-American inequality in mind) such that the unfair "negative action" caps placed on Asians by schools such as Harvard are removed. The "negative action" caps which were placed on Jewish student enrollments have been gone for decades... It's high time that the same be done for Asian enrollment.

[Gaidin]

You could always stand in line behind this lot

https://www.kentucky.com/news/local/...218739835.html

Lol thanx at least my uni is still accredited.