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  1. #1

    Default Question to historians about Cleopatra VII army

    I'm making a mod at this time and I've made some research about Cleopatra's army but can't find much about it and EBII has so many historians I thought maybe someone could have an answer to this

    I know she had Roman legionaries under her command (or at least I think so) given first by Julius Caesar and after his death by Marc Antony, but either than that I'm not sure. Did the Ptolemaic army at this time still used phalanx and if so were they just greek ones or also the "machimoi phalangitai" and did they had other Egyptian native units? Also did they had hypaspitai, agema phalangitai and elite units like those? Or were their units all "romanized" ones? Thanks in advance.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Question to historians about Cleopatra VII army

    The ptolemaioi stopped using phalanx warfare after the battle of Panion and favoured thureos based units and by the time of Cleopatra, the army of the ptolemaioi were composed of mercenaries, Roman exiliates or mercenaries, thureophoroi, Thorakitai and native egyptian units.

    I think you should make mercenary units both local and from the mediterranean, Roman legionaries, late Hellenistic units and native egyptian units like Machimoi thureophoroi and Machimoi thorakitai to represent them.
    Last edited by NapoleonMaster; September 22, 2018 at 10:35 AM.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Question to historians about Cleopatra VII army

    I'm not so sure there'd be native units in the Ptolemaic army, even this late. They were at pains not to recruit the natives - the rebellions after the battle of Raphia were an object reminder of why they relegated the Machimoi to internal security duties at most.

  4. #4
    tomySVK's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Question to historians about Cleopatra VII army

    Very interesting discussion!

    Ptolemaic army during the reign of Cleopatra VII was very diverse force. Writing this post based on my memories from literature I would suggest these units list:

    a) Royal Guard: Agema Hippeon (Greco-Macedonian cavalry guard unit), Basilikon Agema (infantry unit of Greco-Macedonians armed as elite Thorakitai soldiers), Epilepktoi Machimoi (elite machairophoroi unit of Egyptians and Semitic soldiers), Celtic and Germanic guards (they were part of Royal Guard during Cleopatra´s VII reign, after her defeat these soldiers were given to Herod the Great by Augustus as gift)

    b) Regular army: Thureophoroi, Thorakitai, Gabiniani (naturalized Roman troops left in Egypt by Aulus Gabinius), Machimoi Thureophoroi, Machimoi Machairaphoroi, Machimoi Toxotai, Thureophoroi Hippeis/Lonchophoroi Hippeis, Machimoi hippei

    c) Mercenaries: Misthophoroi Thureophoroi, Misthophoroi Thorakitai, Iudaioi Taxeis, Cretan mercenaries, Nubian Mercenaries, Misthophoroi Thureophoroi Hippeis

    d) Roman legions left by Caesar in Alexandria – They were most probably earmarked for Caesar's campaign against the Parthian empire, which was cancelled after his death. They remained therefore in Egypt and they seems to have sided with the Republicans at the battle of Philippi. I´m not sure how to represent these troops in game/mod.

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    I'm not so sure there'd be native units in the Ptolemaic army, even this late. They were at pains not to recruit the natives - the rebellions after the battle of Raphia were an object reminder of why they relegated the Machimoi to internal security duties at most.
    Well, there were Egyptians and other nationalities in the Royal Guard since the reign of Ptolemy II, also the number of Egyptians in the military was increasing:

    “Already in the third century, in fact, some bodyguards of Ptolemy II came from Egyptian military families and were thus probably hired as machairophoroi. Finally, “the picked troops among the machimoi at the court” led by two laarchai and hegemones under Ptolemy V were elite troops, confirming that soldiers from Egyptian families belonged to the royal guard..” (Army and Society in Ptolemaic Egypt, page 152).

    “Egyptians still served as guards and soldiers in the second and first centuries BC,26 but their organization into military units seems to have become more structured. At least from the time of Ptolemy V onward, there were picked troops of machimoi at the court under two laarchai and hegemones, the sons ofHoros mentioned above.27 Alaarchia grouped infantry machimoi and cavalry machimoi together, as can be seen from the machimoi who belonged to the laarchia of Chomenis and who were accordingly assigned different types of kl¯eroi in the late second century in Kerkeosiris. By that point the machimoi were still primarily but not exclusively of Egyptian origin, as can be seen from their names and patronymics. Egyptians joining the army tended to choose Greek names (see Chapter 7), but Egyptian names point to soldiers of Egyptian origin.” (Army and Society in Ptolemaic Egypt, page 164 - 165).

    “In the second century, after the period of crisis caused by the Great Revolt, the Ptolemies hired mostly local recruits and began to organize the army more systematically. The Egyptian and Greco-Egyptian troops stationed in garrisons in the Thebaid received awage. Theywere thus called misthophoroi in Greek and “men receiving pay” in Demotic, and they were not machimoi allotted land.31 Within the army the machimoi were distinguished from these “men receiving pay,” on the one hand, and from the katoikoi, a more privileged group of cleruchs, on the other. The increasing number of Egyptians in the army suggests that the status and wages they obtained, along with the grant of kleroi, appealed to them.” (Army and Society in Ptolemaic Egypt, page 165).
    “The development of the laarchiai suggests a turning point in the organization of the Ptolemaic army in the second century BC, when soldiers of Egyptian or mixed origin became predominant. The establishment of garrisons of local recruits in the Thebaid was part of the same wave of reorganization. And machimoi were still mobilized in 63 BC, at a time when nothing is known about the actual military functions of the other group of cleruchs, the katoikoi.” (Army and Society in Ptolemaic Egypt, page 166).

    I used few quotes from the most recent study of Ptolemaic military by Christelle Fischer-Bovet, published by Cambridge University Press. After playing the Ptolemies for few turns I want to post few ideas about their military in the “Fans suggestion thread”, but I have to do more research.

  5. #5
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: Question to historians about Cleopatra VII army

    Quote Originally Posted by tomySVK View Post
    Very interesting discussion!
    That's +1 rep for you, for producing a clearly very-well researched post. Thanks for naming your sources!

  6. #6
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: Question to historians about Cleopatra VII army

    If you're specifically covering the reign of Cleopatra VII at the tail end of the Roman Republic, yes, it should include Greek thureophoroi and thorakitai, Jewish units (since Jews comprised a large segment of the Alexandrian population and served in the military since the 3rd century BC), a limited amount of native Egyptian machimoi as Quintus suggests, Roman legionaries and foreign mercenaries. In that regard, The Celtic and Germanic Gabiniani fell into both of the latter categories, as they arrived with Aulus Gabinianus as Roman auxiliaries and then stayed in Egypt as mercenaries serving at the highest bidder. Many of them sided with Ptolemy XIII against Cleopatra VII in their civil war, which undoubtedly didn't end well for many of them once Julius Caesar got involved and the boy pharaoh drowned in the Nile during battle.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Question to historians about Cleopatra VII army

    Is there any plan for a late Roman deserter/mercenary unit? They don't make much sense during the early game but as the game progress would be nice to start seeing some of them around the Mediterranean.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Question to historians about Cleopatra VII army

    Quote Originally Posted by LusitanianWolf View Post
    Is there any plan for a late Roman deserter/mercenary unit? They don't make much sense during the early game but as the game progress would be nice to start seeing some of them around the Mediterranean.
    The planned Cohors Tumultaria (or "levy legionary") would be the best fit for that. They'd be post-Marian reform only.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Question to historians about Cleopatra VII army

    Thanks for the info, it's kinda what I thought and yeah the mod will probably start at same date as the Ausgustus campaign for Rome II, maybe a few years later, the factions will be the main factions in that campaign, 4 Roman factions (Octavian, Antony, Lepidus and Pompeius), Egypt, Parthia and the Dacians. The map is from Ancient Conquest which is a smaller map and I thought it was the ideal even because it's a mod I'm making alone (at first I thought of actually making a submod for EBII but it's complicated because EBII it's still in actively development). Anyway I'm thinking on using 12 tpy and using the trick of shadow faction for unique characters. I've already added the units from DBM and I'm now looking at start adding them to the recruitable buildings which btw the idea is something similar to EBII with the government systems but more simplified. So I'm now looking at informatioin about the armies composition for the different factions and any help is appreciated

    So what about cavalry and exotic units like elephants. Did they still had elephants? And should also add elephants to be recruitable in Carthage region for Romans? And did Egypt still had the elite Hetairoi cavalry at this time and what other cavalry units shall I add? What about garamantine chariots? Thanks!

  10. #10
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: Question to historians about Cleopatra VII army

    You added the Roman legions from DBM? Awesome! I attempted a similar thing although mine were goofy and held their shields wrong, and I wasn't competent enough to fix the problem because I'm not a super duper real modder. Did you create your own Imperial reforms for the legions you added, due to their Imperial-period lorica segmentata armor?

    In either case I would also like to know about the Ptolemaic cavalry in the last stage of their kingdom. Mark Antony used cavalry in Egypt to fight back against Octavian's invasion force, but his cavalry obviously eventually defected to Octavian. I'm not sure if this was local Greek cavalry or Roman auxiliaries of his that he brought from elsewhere. There were just lots of foreign elements in Ptolemaic Egypt thanks to the competing interests on the throne and the depletion of Greek colonists from mainland Greece (now under Roman dominion). For instance, as I stated above, the Celtic and Germanic Gabiniani Roman auxiliaries largely sided with Ptolemy XIII against Cleopatra VII, while she recruited an army in Roman Syria and brought it back to Egypt to fight her rival younger brother.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Question to historians about Cleopatra VII army

    Of relevance, something paullus (our Chief Historian - Ptolemaic Egypt is one of his areas of specialism, too) wrote on our internal forum:

    Quote Originally Posted by paullus
    Okay, so on the role of Egyptians in the Ptolemaic army.

    There are essentially two, but in practice more like three, or even four, roles to recognize, only one of which are machimoi soldiers.

    The machimoi were a hereditary and land tenure class that both existed long before the Ptolemaic regime and changed considerably under the regime. Machimoi seem likely to have been present at the battle of Gaza in 312, probably as both light and medium infantry. Most machimoi held allotments of 5 or 7 arouras, and only a select few 10 (elite infantry) arouras or 20 (cavalry). The machimoi filled all sorts of liturgic roles in the Egyptian state: police, crop guards, irrigation guards, contract witnesses, and security, in addition to their military roles. Ptolemy I and II did a fairly good job developing relationships with some of the leading machimoi clans of the Delta region. The Saite and Mendesian nomes, in particular, featured two of the largest concentrations of machimoi and many of the leading machimoi nobility lived there, and the first Ptolemies recruited a palace guard unit from there and from other Delta regions. The machimoi were not hardly restricted to the Delta; thousands inhabited nearly every nome of Middle and especially Upper Egypt. The machimoi did not generally, apart from Gaza, pull front line roles in land campaigns, but they were heavily used for local duties, garrisoning the frontiers, and naval campaigns.

    The role of the machimoi changed under Sosibius and Ptolemy IV, who raised 20,000 machimoi phalangites for the Raphia campaign. The military reform, and the land reforms that accompanied it (the phalangites received 10 aroura allotments rather than 5 or 7) contributed in several ways to hostility toward the Ptolemaic regime. Machimoi deserted their duties, their ships, their forts, and their allotments en masse at the start of the Great Revolt, and provided much of the military backbone of the rebel movement. There is no clear evidence for machimoi phalangitai after Raphia, and many of the 10-aroura allotments were repurposed soon after the revolt began, going mainly to policemen, whose status was dramatically increased through the award of kleroi.

    Machimoi remained part of the Ptolemaic military infrastructure until the end of the dynasty. We know that the allotments sizes attested earlier all survived into the late Ptolemaic era. We know that machimoi were pulling a variety of roles, from wartime mobilizations to frontier guardposts to regional paramilitary jobs to marine status. At least some machimoi might be mobilized for pay about 8 months out of the year, considerably more than Greek cleruchs. It is likely, based on a couple of artistic sources, that 10-arouras machimoi in this day carried thureoi, and even the 7-arouras machimoi may have; we don't know what they carried as their panoply, whether bows or javelins or spears, but we can at least confirm that the 7-arouras machimoi were prevalent in many regions in the Late Ptolemaic period. My guess is that, while some may have been archers, most were kitted similarly to euzonoi or other shielded skirmishing infantry. Machimoi hippeis were active in this era, and presumably existed in earlier eras, but only in the mid- to late-Ptolemaic era do we actually have evidence for them.

    The other class of Egyptian soldiers were the so-called Persai. Dating back to the Achaemenid era some Egyptians were trained for imperial service, but Alexander, as is well known, implemented a more pervasive training regimen to raise Hellenizing troops from every conquered province. The most famous of these are the Epigonoi Persians from the Iranian satrapies, 30,000 strong. But more than 60,000 were trained during his own lifetime, including 6,000 in Egypt, or so we may surmise from an entry in the Suda for royal pages. The Persai in the early Ptolemaic era were almost certainly descendants of those same 6,000 or additional Egyptians admitted into a comparable Hellenizing program. They retained their Egyptian identity when needed, but generally bore a Hellenic, and often specifically Macedonian, name in most official business. It is impossible to guess how many Persians (read: Hellenizing Egyptians trained in Macedonian arms) were serving in the army already by 272, or throughout the third century, but we do at least know that "Perses" is one of the more common ethnics in the 3rd century military, so it is likely to have been quite a few. Only a minority of those called "Perses" in papyri have remotely Iranian names (but there are a few, who may indeed have been, or descended from, Persians or other Iranians.

    These 3rd century "Persians" have little bearing on our units, since they were members of the settler units. But it is important to bear in mind that they're there.

    In the 2nd century, a new form of "Persians" came into use, a designation for non-cleruch soldiers of Egyptian or Nubian origin. Many of these Persians could, in the first or second generation, lay claim to a Hellenic name, although the most common of these were often theophoric, to Egyptian deities. There's no evidence I can think of tying these Persians to machimoi clans, nor were they incorporated into Greek units. Instead, they served in these very mildly Hellenizing corporate Persian units, and their sons or grandsons might move up the ranks into other classes of soldier. They could mobilize and demobilize, but often lived in settlements where conscription was customary. And in the absence of any significant immigration after the early 2nd century BC, proven "Persian" soldiers were one of the main recruitment bases for new Hellenic troops. In fact, the Hellenic portion of the army declined in the 2nd century, and machimoi and Persians, two different types of Egyptian soldier, played growing roles in all military matters.

  12. #12
    Marvzilla's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Question to historians about Cleopatra VII army

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    Of relevance, something paullus (our Chief Historian - Ptolemaic Egypt is one of his areas of specialism, too) wrote on our internal forum:
    Thanks, always love to read stuff from the inner workings.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Question to historians about Cleopatra VII army

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    You added the Roman legions from DBM? Awesome! I attempted a similar thing although mine were goofy and held their shields wrong, and I wasn't competent enough to fix the problem because I'm not a super duper real modder. Did you create your own Imperial reforms for the legions you added, due to their Imperial-period lorica segmentata armor?
    They're working perfectly in my mod, my guess is that you didn't added the correct animations? Regarding the legions from what I could gather it's not known when the "lorica segmentata" (actually a modern name as it's not known how they called it) started being used, usually it's accepted it was probably already in the Empire but it's also possible they were already started being used during the late republic. Most of DBM legions have mixed armor (hamata, segmentata and another one I don't remember the name atm), the only ones with full segmentata are the Augustas, Geminas and Praetorian legions, there is a couple of them with no segmentata. There is 1 or 2 with musculata I think or something else I don't recognize.

    I'll most likely use the mixed ones and I'm thinking on using one per faction with the corresponding faction colours (yeah I know it's gamey ) and maybe make an event to trigger the imperial reform when one of the roman factions control certain key provinces and then unlock the augustas and geminas but I'm not sure of this yet. What is important it's to give the mod pleasing gameplay even if here or there I need to sacrifice a bit of historical accuracy.

    "In fact, the Hellenic portion of the army declined in the 2nd century, and machimoi and Persians, two different types of Egyptian soldier, played growing roles in all military matters." So the number of native Egyptians used in the army might have actually increased a lot in the later Ptolemaic kingdom? But they were equipped more like thureophoroi and such probably? Also if you think about it Cleopatra seems to had a great fascination for Egypt to the point of learning Egyptian and apparently was the only one from the dynasty who did so.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Question to historians about Cleopatra VII army

    Correction to what I said about the full segmentata legions from DBM, actually that's the upgraded ones, I tested the units in custom battles so I only have seen the name of the legions didn't realized it was upgraded versions.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Question to historians about Cleopatra VII army

    Great information indeed What about the typical classical greek hoplite? Did they completely disappeared by this time like the phalanx or were they still around the Mediterranean or at least in Greece? Or did all the greeks just turned into the later units?

  16. #16
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: Question to historians about Cleopatra VII army

    Quote Originally Posted by MagusCaligula View Post
    Great information indeed What about the typical classical greek hoplite? Did they completely disappeared by this time like the phalanx or were they still around the Mediterranean or at least in Greece? Or did all the greeks just turned into the later units?
    The Classical Greek hoplite was more or less gone by the end of the Hellenistic period, replaced by more maneuverable and flexible thureophoroi and thorakitai infantry.

    Quote Originally Posted by MagusCaligula View Post
    I've opened a thread for the mod: Empire Rising
    Cool! Thanks for sharing.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Question to historians about Cleopatra VII army

    I've opened a thread for the mod: Empire Rising

  18. #18

    Default Re: Question to historians about Cleopatra VII army

    so the roman incursions in greece following the punic wars had to deal with maniples of thorakitai/thureophoroi? i always pictured that they were still using phalangites. time to find a book on the macedonian wars i guess

  19. #19

    Default Re: Question to historians about Cleopatra VII army

    Quote Originally Posted by hlidskjalf View Post
    so the roman incursions in greece following the punic wars had to deal with maniples of thorakitai/thureophoroi? i always pictured that they were still using phalangites. time to find a book on the macedonian wars i guess
    The hoplite phalanx (spearmen) and Makedonian phalanx (pikemen) are two different things, don't forget.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Question to historians about Cleopatra VII army

    What about the Baktrians and the indo-greeks? in game they are represented as having much easier access to hoplitai troops (like the indo-hellenics and the Baktrian elites) than to phalangites (except pantodapoi). Did they kept the hoplite traditions for longer than everyone else?

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