Iran Tensions Rise, and Russia Arms Iran

[bigfootedfred]

Irans new Defences

The Russians Are now fully arming and suppling Iran with weapons.
The US is making more threats, and a military buildup is underway.

The Russians were sending Some systems before, but now they are sending many many more. indeed 'if they want more, they can have them' as the Russians have said. Meanwhile American threats continue.

[KaerMorhen]

just wonder if russians send tech instructors as well cause if you even have best weaponary but none to operate them - they are useless. Look at most Israeli-Arab conflicts, Jews used US stuff not always of highest sort and Arab states were hugely reinforced by SU "top gear" at that time and what...they were beaten!!!. I don't really belief that Iran would risk open conflict with US and US opening new frontline either. They just teasing with each other.

[jankren]

just wonder if russians send tech instructors as well cause if you even have best weaponary but none to operate them - they are useless. Look at most Israeli-Arab conflicts, Jews used US stuff not always of highest sort and Arab states were hugely reinforced by SU "top gear" at that time and what...they were beaten!!!. I don't really belief that Iran would risk open conflict with US and US opening new frontline either. They just teasing with each other.

I do not think it is completely true. The Egyptians did not really get 'top gear' supply from the Soviet Union in their war against Israel. In fact they even had to plead all the time for urgently needed supply due to Soviet's reluctance in giving all-out aid because they were afraid to get in full conflict against USA.

[JP226]

We shoulda beat Russia's ass right after WW2, then we wouldn't have to deal with this crap. The reds are just probing us and testing our limits. It's as if these douchebags want to renew the coldwar and get the smack down once more.

[zinrohk]

We shoulda beat Russia's ass right after WW2, then we wouldn't have to deal with this crap. The reds are just probing us and testing our limits. It's as if these douchebags want to renew the coldwar and get the smack down once more.

Yeah I don't think it would be a cakewalk for America to go to war with Russia..

Vietnam, Iraq ect.. It goes to show you can have the best technology out there yet still get wtfpwndbbqsauce

[NimChief]

We shoulda beat Russia's ass right after WW2, then we wouldn't have to deal with this crap. The reds are just probing us and testing our limits. It's as if these douchebags want to renew the coldwar and get the smack down once more.

America's arms sales too former Soviet Nations since the end of the Cold War would suggest otherwise.

You just can't take your own medicine.

[Aristophanes]

America's arms sales too former Soviet Nations since the end of the Cold War would suggest otherwise.

You just can't take your own medicine.

And all this time I was under the impression Eastern European nations DIDN'T have a history of terrorist attacks on Russia, and that they were moderately peaceful nations which weren't threatening to turn a certain country into a shimmering lake of glass.

Be serious, the United States have sold next to no weapons to the Eastern European nations, and I think Eastern Europe has a lot more to fear from Russia[judging by history] than vice versa.

[Erik]

So Iran is legally arming itself with legal, conventional weapons?
And this is a problem...how?

Oh, I forgot: Iran has oil.

[JP226]

Yeah I don't think it would be a cakewalk for America to go to war with Russia..

Vietnam, Iraq ect.. It goes to show you can have the best technology out there yet still get wtfpwndbbqsauce

Political wars and politicians tend to negate the overwhelming advantage of technology.

Oh, I forgot: Iran has oil.

too bad the netherlands doesn't have oil...

[Carach]

So Iran is legally arming itself with legal, conventional weapons?
And this is a problem...how?

Oh, I forgot: Iran has oil.

it coincides with these new nuclear-capable ballistic missiles, their boosting of ego..

oh, "i forgot: nuclear power"

theres a dozen 'coincidences' going on with iran right now... but you go have fun in the sand erik

Israel is a terrorist state. These organizations resist the terrorist actions of Israel.

You are incorrect in every way Princeps, that argument hasnt worked since... well, ever.
Israel was accepted by the internationally recognised UN, Palestine was a huge area and Israel is not even a third of it, the 'palestinians' were given their own land (not to mention the dozen surrounding countries also muslim 'brothers' they could of lived in). It was fair, just and legal in every way - just because some people cry about it and others exploiting that, does not change fact.

It's the mutual assured destruction thing. The US and everybody else maintains their right to own nuclear weapons on this principle. They also make a splendid threat device, see Israel lately, "do this or that or we'll nuke you". Great.

Still living in a parallel universe pac? :/ Since when did Israel threaten anyone with the use of nukes? Nobody even knows officially that they have any, threatening people with nuclear attack would officially confirm it, and as i said that hasnt happened so.. .?

explain to me that amazing logic of yours.

[Princeps]

It was fair, just and legal in every way

It was not fair, it was morally disgusting in every way. The creation of Isreal was an out right act of aggressive imperialism combined with the typical diplomatic aggresssiveness and western believe in their own exceptionalism that they have the right to play with entire peoples like a child plays with his toys. The UN was and is more of a US puppet organization. The UN neutrality, like US neutrality is a myth.

Do not put the blame on the surrounding peoples. Israel and the west is responsible for displacing the Palestinians from their own land. West outrightly stole their land, and now forces them to live in poverty and humiliation.

The people of Palestine pays for the crimes of German people. Law is irrelevant when west does not follow the law it sets for itself and world, it never has and never will.

The "fact" that Israel is legal, and Palestine is not regonized (because of US veto) or did not exist before, is used to triviliaze the Palestinian suffering and the wide range of war crimes that Israeli state commits regularly and with western funding. In the process, the hypocritical pro-Israelis, when they use this arguement, morally bankrupt themselves.

[Aristophanes]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the subject is Iran and Russia arming Iran. Now I understand that some people believe that Israel is the cause of every problem in this world, but I would prefer if they would vent that in topics that are dedicated to said Israel-bashing.

It was not fair, it was morally disgusting in every way. The creation of Isreal was an out right act of aggressive imperialism combined with the typical diplomatic aggresssiveness and western believe in their own exceptionalism that they have the right to play with entire peoples like a child plays with his toys. The UN was and is more of a US puppet organization. The UN neutrality, like US neutrality is a myth.

Israel exists and has a large population. That is a FACT. You can argue about how that fact originated, but it does nothing to lessen the immediacy of that fact. Because Israel is a fact, a physical reality, its existence can only be ended by physical phenomena such as war, genocide, mass-emigration, famine or natural disaster...or by merging it with a Palestinian state.

Do not put the blame on the surrounding peoples. Israel and the west is responsible for displacing the Palestinians from their own land. West outrightly stole their land, and now forces them to live in poverty and humiliation.

My personal view on the subject is this

Fighting the conflicts of the past appears to be a popular political strategy: I suppose the main reason is that is it constitutes moral abdication of responsibilities to oneself and others in the present. It's rather an ingenious method of procrastination, another mental trap working itself out on the world stage.

Truly rational people would move on, accepting sunk costs as sunk and lost, and simply try to build themselves a better future with what they presently could control. It's a shame that people in the West inflame, popularize and abet these perversions of history and logic.

I'd also like to point out that Arab/Muslim leadership[certainly not always analogous] have used Israel's existence for decades as an excuse for their failings: the poor standard of living, the lack of human rights, in sum, all the injustices that they are, in fact, responsible for.
If you consider the Palestinian situation, they have land, have gotten many grants of money from European and other nations, but still can not manage to refrain from fighting amongst themselves, and show no interest in building a nation, even with all the land they already have...which isn't much less than the state of Israel.

No one is forcing Palestinians to live in poverty and humiliation: Palestinians are choosing to live that way, and the Arab regimes are encouraging that because it's all a very useful foil.

The people of Palestine pays for the crimes of German people. Law is irrelevant when west does not follow the law it sets for itself and world, it never has and never will.

The people of Palestine need to move on.

The "fact" that Israel is legal, and Palestine is not regonized (because of US veto) or did not exist before, is used to triviliaze the Palestinian suffering and the wide range of war crimes that Israeli state commits regularly and with western funding. In the process, the hypocritical pro-Israelis, when they use this arguement, morally bankrupt themselves.

Why should anyone recognize a government composed of reckless fundamentalist Islamic anarchists bent on a permanent state of warfare between Palestinians and Israel?

[Princeps]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the subject is Iran and Russia arming Iran.

The two conflicts are closely linked. While US/Israeli-Palestinian situation shows the utter hypocrisy of American foreign policy, Iraq and Afganistan shows its aggressiveness and disregard for soverignity and arrogant believe in its exceptionalism. Iran rightly fears it is the next target, and therefore tries to aquire nuclear weapons against the most aggressive power of our time.

America surrounds Iran from the sea, from land, from west, east and north. America labels Iran as evil and openly bullies it.

Now I understand that some people believe that Israel is the cause of every problem in this world,

While you do not understand, you indirectly try to make me appear ignorant by making false claims that I believe Israel is the beginning of every problem.

but I would prefer if they would vent that in topics that are dedicated to said Israel-bashing.

When there is a lot to bash about Israel, and so easy to find to things to bash about Israel, don't you think it would be time to think about what Israel is doing.

Israel exists and has a large population. That is a FACT. You can argue about how that fact originated,

Yes, but the fact how Israel originated, means that it has no rightful claim to anything, and the fact that it refuses to follow any law and restriction the west has placed on it, does not improve it. I am pragmatic about the existence of Israel, there are Israelis now and they are not going anywhere.

I'd also like to point out that Arab/Muslim leadership[certainly not always analogous] have used Israel's existence for decades as an excuse for their failings: the poor standard of living, the lack of human rights, in sum, all the injustices that they are, in fact, responsible for.

I see, so now your taking two completely different issues - the poorer standard of living - and blame Muslims aggressiveness for it, thus making them appear in very poor light.

There are several reasons to the lesser living standards in the ME countries, and few of them have to do with Israel, except in the immediate close to Israel. Like in Palestine.

If you consider the Palestinian situation,

Okay, let's consider it.

they have land,

No they don't. Israel is occuping the land, Palestinian cannot build houses to their own land without premission from the illegal occupier, who will bulldoze any "unauthorized" buildings and throw the occupants to the streets... sometimes it bulldozes the buildings with people still inside.

Palestinians live in virtual prisons surrounded by Israeli soldiers. Palestinian land is carved by Israeli controlled highways, which are off the limit to Palestinians and can only be used by Israeli military and citizens - the Palestinians cannot even cross them. These roads go to everwhere, and they ruin Palestinian economy. They form a matrix of control between the colonies.

Israeli settlements are build over major water sources, and over hills, where they are fortified like colonies. While the Palestinians live in dirt, the Israeli settlers live in houses - built to Palestinian land - and have green garders wetted with Palestinian water, while Palestinians suffer from severe water shortages.

have gotten many grants of money from European and other nations,

You cannot expect that a nation that cannot control their own land, do not have their own state, who's economy is being deliberately crushed by an oppressive foreign power who occupies their land - would suddenly get well and nice... just because they get some money from the outside.

but still can not manage to refrain from fighting amongst themselves,

Given the situation the Palestinian are in, civil war is likely. Again, you are blaming them, for a situation which the Israelis are responsible as I explained. Israel even created Hamas.

and show no interest in building a nation,

Have you ever considered that they might be too desperate. Israel has never made any acceptable peace prosposals, and only when they do it, is when they have suffered set backs. Then they betray the Palestinians again.

Israeli soldeirs patrol Palestinian streets, they set road blocks to hamper even the most basic traffic and thus ruin Palestinian economy and force them to go through humiliating security measures every day. Israeli soldiers maintain an oppressive occupation of Palestinian lands. Palestinians live in poverty and virtual prisons, and if they resist they are labelled terrorists and killed.

Given the situation where Palestinians are, they are desperate, many are self-loathing, many cannot built up livelyhoods, and it has spread a culture of dependency to foreign aid and desperation.

Also, when there is not central government that can provide security and good life, the people seek safety from the people they trust... families, thus creating powerful tribes and criminal families which make nation building ever more difficult. Then, Israel deliberately prevents the birth of a Palestinian state, with the measures I have previously listed above, because a strong Palestinian state next to them is the last thing they want to see.

No one is forcing Palestinians to live in poverty and humiliation:

The israelis are. With American weapons.

The people of Palestine need to move on.

They cannot move on because of what I previously said. Israel needs to move out.

Why should anyone recognize a government composed of reckless fundamentalist Islamic anarchists bent on a permanent state of warfare between Palestinians and Israel?

OMGOMGOMGOMOMGOMGOMGZZZ TERRORIST TERROSITS!!!

Oh, you mean terrorists and islamic fundamentalists. Oh, how horrible.!!!!!!

stop listeting to the Israeli mouth only. They are terrorists because they are labelled as such.

No. Seriously. They are less of a terrorists than the IDF. They resist foreign occupation and aggression, they fight for their people, and therefore I support them in that perspective.

It is Israel that wants war. They only make peace when they suffer set backs. Then they whine why the Palestinians do not make peace - well, wake up fools! YOUR SOLDIERS ARE ON THEIR STREETS, their presence is a constant and inexcusable provocation against the Palestinian people. They ruin their lives.

After Israel has stopped doing what I have said above, and withdraw their troops from Palestinian areas, then they may talk about peace. Not before it.

[JP226]

America's arms sales too former Soviet Nations since the end of the Cold War would suggest otherwise.

You just can't take your own medicine.

I'm sorry, maybe I shouldn't have a problem with the reds arming a nation with weps to be used against us. Sorry about that.

[Da Skinna]

You should be. Iran only makes threats of wiping nations of the earth, insulting Western leaders, and screwing over their own country, with all the unhappy people leaving, ensuring that only the ones that stay are the crazy ones that are brainwashed into this religious rhetoric that can be used for some very interesting purposes.

You should be sorry for being worried about this issue...

/sarcasm.

[RusskiSoldat]

Russia is not doing this to piss off the US, even though God knows the US has done more than enough to deserve a *****slap.
The reason we are doing this is because our arms industry is one of the best in the world, and there would be no money for R&D and production of new weapons if we don't sell what we make.
Market mechanism, in other words.
Russia's arming Iran, China and Venezuela.
Why?
Those countries all have a massive demand for arms, and refuse to buy from the US.
The only reason we aren't arming the rest of the globe is because the US got there first for the most part.

[AMERICARULES]

Russia is playing a dangerous game here. Their seems to be a coalition of relatively powerful states throughout the world that is opposed to what America stands for for no apparent reason. America simply aims to promote peace and prosperity throughout the world. Why so many different groups of people feel the need to oppose that vision is beyond me.

[ForgottenImmortal]

How does the Iraq War promote "peace and prosperity throughout the world" as you put it?

[carl-the-conqueror]

Russia is playing a dangerous game here. Their seems to be a coalition of relatively powerful states throughout the world that is opposed to what America stands for for no apparent reason. America simply aims to promote peace and prosperity throughout the world.

what a co-incidence that an oil-entrepeneur run country just happens to ''liberate'' oil fueled economies

Why so many different groups of people feel the need to oppose that vision is beyond me.

because how many ''liberated countries are peaceful or prosperous

[LSJ]

Methinks Russia has dreams of regaining the awesome power of the USSR and its alliance network again...