Rome or Carthage?

[Dargaron]

...No, it's not a thread about which is better for a new player.

So, it's year ~231 B.C. in a Makedonia Long campaign. Epeiros and the KH are destroyed. Pergamon rules most of Anatolia, my frontier is currently at the Lower Danube, and (hopefully) I'll be able to get peace with the Getai soon-ish.

In this case, Antigonus made his sons swear on his deathbed that they wouldn't march East in imitation of their Grandfather, Demetrios. Not to be deterred from seeking Great Deeds(TM), after defeating the Getai, I'd like to make a move into the Western Med.

Question is; should I go after Italy, or North Africa+Sicily?

The factors in favor of Italy are the fairly well-rounded local roster (plenty of pseudo-Hoplites as far north as the Po Valley, light-to-medium cavalry, sword infantry in central+northern Italy), relatively compact, wealthy provinces and a certain amount of friendly culture in southern Italy.

The factors against are my concern that if I conquer Rome completely before the Polybian Reforms (I probably don't want to wait for them to get the AI fallback Marian Reforms), then I won't get access to the juicy reformed Italian/Roman units, as well as a lack of any decent Casus Belli: Rome has basically been stuck in Italy all game (except for a brief period when they held Dyrrachion), fighting the Arverni after Liguria revolted to them. There's no particular reason for me to attack Rome, given our previous mutual-beatdown of Epeiros.

The factors in favor of Carthage/North Africa/Sicily are access to excellent light troops (Kretan Archers are nice, but take so long to replenish, and Pergamon's got Crete), (potentially) lots of Libyan/Liby-Phoenecian infantry and cavalry, and potential allies in the form of the Numidians. Also, Carthage is currently eating their way across North Africa, all the way to the gates of Alexandria. I have plenty of in-universe Casus Belloi against Carthage; either by "supporting" Syracuse (read: annexing it and using it as a pretext to conquer Carthage), or as part of a bid to grab Egypt or mend fences w/ the Ptolemies (depending on how much they grovel for the return of their lost provinces)

The factors against are the totally foreign culture (Except for parts of Sicily, there's no Hellenistic culture anywhere in North Africa or Southern Spain), the rather spread-out nature of the relevant provinces (some of the coastal provinces aren't even contiguous!) and concerns that the local recruitment will be subpar. I remember that in EBI, almost all of the Carthaginian Factional units (Libyan Infantry/cavalry, Liby-Phoenecian Spearmen, etc) were only available to Carthage, so I'm concerned that I'll end up taking these provinces, but being stuck with nothing but Numidians and Garamantenes to defend them. No offense to Numidians and Garamantines, but I'd like at least 20% of my army to be wearing something on their chest more substantial than a piece of cloth.

TL;DR: As Makedon, I would like to expand West. I have an in-universe Casus Belli on Carthage, but I'm concerned that I won't have access to enough local units to properly garrison the region/add to my field armies. Will I have access to Carthaginian units in the coastal Phoenician cities, and/or will my Hellenistic Colonies provide decent line infantry/medium cavalry in the region?

Also, since the KH are defeated, does that mean I'll never have access to the Lakonian Hoplites? My only thought is to let the province rebel, hope that the KH respawns properly, then just not conquer them until the reform passes (smacking down their armies as necessary). Will that work?

[QuintusSertorius]

North Africa is not part of Makedonia's natural sphere of influence; you'll get no native troops out of any factional government there. Your best bet is an Allied Government, which you could augment with a polis when the Hellenistic Polities level is high enough. That would open the possibility of installing a Hellenic Admin and then a colony, but you'd only have the Greeks you'd invested colonists in settling.

There's no Agiad reform in Sparte without a living KH faction. No one else can instigate it, same as the Romans are required for the Polybian reform. If they re-emerge, you could always give them Lakonike - as long as the requisite level of farm has been built and they are in possession of the province, the reform will trigger.

[Frtigern]

How about taking out the Ptolemaioi? They are Hellenic and have some unique native units that could be useful for the eventual conquest of Arche Seleukeia and Carthage. Also isnt Kyrene a Hellenic outpost? I'm guessing Syracuse is under Carthage control? I'm assuming you have Crete. You could bop up over to Crimea and bring those guys into the fold. Pontos might not be too happy (if they're around).

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[Dargaron]

Nope, I don't have Crete. Pergamon sniped it while I was busy conquering the Balkan territories that stop the scripted raids on Macedon. My source of Cretan Archers is the North/South Greece mercenary pools and an upgraded Military Colony in Corinth. Also, Syracuse is still independent (as far as I can tell: clicking on the city has it labeled as "enemy city," and I'm at peace w/ Carthage and Rome, so...) Kyrene is under Carthaginian control, so I might launch an invasion there instead of Sicily.

I'm going to go after the Ptolemies eventually, but I figured that attacking Egypt proper would fall under the "marching east" category, so I'll have to wait until the next generation to do that.

Don't intend to conquer the AS: they've basically been kicked East of the Euphrates (except for Phrygia, which they always garrison with at least two stacks in every game. No idea why), and I don't need to "remove" them for my VCs. Pergamon is going to get stomped at some point, but I wasn't planning on going beyond Babylon/Charax at farthest.

[Frtigern]

Who controls Rhodes? Nice income generating island.

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[Dargaron]

Who controls Rhodes? Nice income generating island.

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Pergamon again. They've done quite nicely for themselves, all things considered. They actually took Pamphylia, which is surprising, since last I looked, the Ptolemies had 2.5 stacks guarding it. For some reason, every game I play, the Seleucids put a really strong garrison in Ipsos, and the Ptolemies put a really strong garrison in Side.

Here's a local map. Unfortunately, I can't Toggle_fow for you: the only computer I have that can run Med II is an ancient Dell that still runs XP, and not only does it lack a functional battery, but it no longer has a working "T" key. (sadface)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The star in the middle of Getia is the Lugiones: apparently they got ganked by the Getai/Sweboz/Boii. Might try destroying the Getai, allying them and giving them some of the stuff north of the Danube, since that's close to Horse Archer country.

The Syrian Wars basically got put on hold, since the Nabateans interposed themselves between the Ptolemies and Seleucids for a while, and the Ptolemies were too busy getting beaten up by the Carthaginians to care.

[tentaku]

Here's a local map.

On the minimap, I see Pergamon has a province in western north Africa in the middle of Carthaginian territory?? I know it is most likely Numidia but the color is just so similar to Pergamon....

[Ivir Baggins]

On the minimap, I see Pergamon has a province in western north Africa in the middle of Carthaginian territory?? I know it is most likely Numidia but the color is just so similar to Pergamon....

That's Numidia.