5 Years Onwards. How does R2 and DeI compare to MED2/RTW mods?

[Jake Armitage]

Imo every difference resides in the new scripting lua language (used from shogun 2 if I'm correct).
I'm not a scripter (the only experience I have with scripting is through M2TW and Rome2) but lua it is far more complex and has a lot of possibilities (se what Litharion did for population or prime for people's trust).
With M2TW you could never had deep scripted systems (that can go outside normal game mechanics)

Sincerely I don't think that anyone can really say that M2TW (and mods) are better than Rome2's in any feature (well maybe just a couple, but almost secondary features).
Think it is just the nostalgic part speaking (and the fact that maps were moddable and people could "create" a world)

[Icarus Smicarus]

is combat considered a "secondary feature" in a total war game now? Because no one would deny that EB2 and just about every other Mtw2 mod totally crushes DEI in this regard. Rome 2 is a slippery slidey mess in comparison. I know we all want it to be nostalgia. But the simple fact is that the old engine provided countless more possibilities for modders. A lot of the features added in Rome 2 mods are essentially shackled together editions of what was already avaliable in the old base game, "change capital" button, and region trading, for example.

For the record, I do play more DEI these days. The combat is growing on me, though I really wish the hoplites didn't use the pike phalanx.

[Goffredo85]

People must have a very short memory to say that med 2 combat was flawless. Pikes were utterly broken in med2 then there was the "charge" bug, the soldiers shifting away from the enemy during combat, the small stacks sent one by one, the cities left without garrisons and the total absence of naval invasions, units that couldn't fire from walls and many many other glitches. Rome 2 is certainly not the best TW so far, but every title in the series has had its share of major glitches.

[MeiguoJinjang]

I am playing both RTW/RS3 and RTW2/DEI pretty much concurrently right now. Although I don't have thousands of hours in either. I had a few complete games of RTW/DM9 and STW2/DM. I would say both mods/engines are very charming and enjoyable. I feel fortunate that such absolutely stunning overhauls/upgrades have been done with both engines by enthusiasts that well exceed what is available commercially. If you have the money and the time, it's all good. Besides the quality, there is just so much content and depth.

I plan to dedicate my entire retirement to 4 engines with mods: RTW, MTW2, STW2, and RTW2. Thank you ... selfless modders who remake the commercially decent into the gratuitously stunning!

[Jake Armitage]

is combat considered a "secondary feature" in a total war game now? Because no one would deny that EB2 and just about every other Mtw2 mod totally crushes DEI in this regard. Rome 2 is a slippery slidey mess in comparison. I know we all want it to be nostalgia. But the simple fact is that the old engine provided countless more possibilities for modders. A lot of the features added in Rome 2 mods are essentially shackled together editions of what was already avaliable in the old base game, "change capital" button, and region trading, for example.

For the record, I do play more DEI these days. The combat is growing on me, though I really wish the hoplites didn't use the pike phalanx.

Could be, I like both DeI's and modded M2TW battles sincerely.
I prefer DeI simply cause it's obviously "newer"

[Dardo21]

I prefer DeI also because of the graphical benefits, although I sometimes switch back to bingegaming MOS and divide and conquer on M2TW, because of the richer possibilities in terms of building options, custom maps etc.

[Icarus Smicarus]

Don't get me wrong. As I said earlier in this thread there are definitely improvements in Rome 2/DEI that are hard to go back from. Graphics obviously, as stated. But I also prefer the building and province system in the newer game, it's definitively "streamlined" and would benefit from being more dynamic, but it does at least provide less tedium when you get a larger empire while being more strategic longterm. Though I do wish there was a way to implement the more complex occupation systems from EB2 . I also quite like the naval battles when they actually work.

[Dardo21]

Don't get me wrong. As I said earlier in this thread there are definitely improvements in Rome 2/DEI that are hard to go back from. Graphics obviously, as stated. But I also prefer the building and province system in the newer game, it's definitively "streamlined" and would benefit from being more dynamic, but it does at least provide less tedium when you get a larger empire while being more strategic longterm. Though I do wish there was a way to implement the more complex occupation systems from EB2 . I also quite like the naval battles when they actually work.

Ancient Empires is taking over the old occupation options from EBII, including having generals with culturally tied traits I believe.

[♔Greek Strategos♔]

People must have a very short memory to say that med 2 combat was flawless. Pikes were utterly broken in med2 then there was the "charge" bug, the soldiers shifting away from the enemy during combat, the small stacks sent one by one, the cities left without garrisons and the total absence of naval invasions, units that couldn't fire from walls and many many other glitches. Rome 2 is certainly not the best TW so far, but every title in the series has had its share of major glitches.

Indeed. Most people's comments concerning Med 2 is pure nostalgia. They seem to forget how flawed was it's release. For Rome 1 too.
Hell, I started Total War with Shogun 1 and Med 1, but I'm not saying they were better. Though I loved them both.

[waidizss]

Roma Surrectum II of course but you cannot port that to a new platform and there's around 0% of me going back, again, to play rtw.

The campaign map was absolute beast and you had guys who became generals some became governors and while battles were endless, isn't it just the best when you beat Hannibal turn 1?. The building micro, management of frontiers is just such a great fit for late-imperial peace-keeping and with the amount of units available you never get bored. A legion consists of several stacks and can be spread out to govern larger distances when not engaged.

Downside, r2tw never realized its potential to be available for modding.

[Yerevan]

Personally I find it impossible to compare old TW titles with the new. Because when I srted playing those games everything wsa new and exciting and with time you start to see the stitches under. I think S2TW was the game where the old charm and the new techs did blend into the best experience, but this is mainly contextual.

For me, the main problem is as follows: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post15496464.

This is impressive : you've perfectly summed up what got me bored of TW games after years of impassioned playing. This and the inability of the CAI to build up its empire and develop its conquered territories adequately in order to field competitive armies from mid-game to late-game.

Those problems didn't seem to disappear with the ancestral update : in every let's play I watched on youtube, only the artificial uprising system is making it difficult to the human player. They are boring to watch. The human player steamrolling is slower but is obviously still there. I have hope though with ToB's recruitment system making things better.

To the "Close-to-perfect knowledge of the enemy" I would also had the "perfect knowledge of the enemy's potential movement". For me the possibility to add a random factor like weather, troops morale or fatigue to add uncertainty to any exact army's move would make this game mush more fun and enhance the strategic gameplay. At the momenit's just like every faction has satellites orbiting in the sky and little robot soldiers marching the same distance wherever they go. If I remember well, in RTW you didn' know when exactly the ennemy's reinforcement or yours, would appear on the battlefield. And it brought a lot of suspense and situations changing the odd. But maybe I remember wrong.

One thing is sure : if I reinstall R2TW, it will be directly with DEI.

[Baharr]

The answer, really, is "it depends on what you prefer".

My top two mods are Divide et Impera and Europa Barbarorum II. DeI has imo the superior battles because the Rome 2 engine is superior when it comes to combat - it controls better, looks better, is more responsive, lets you do a lot more with units, and generally makes for a superior and less janky combat experience.

But EBII has the better strategic layer. Cities have a lot more depth and personality and the Medieval II recruitment pool system is imo superior to Rome 2's system - EBII uses it to for example simulate Hellenic settlement of foreign lands which eventually gives you hellenistic units like phalanxes and thureophoroi. Rome 2's city building is way more perfunctory and limited by comparison.

[♔Greek Strategos♔]

Roma Surrectum II of course but you cannot port that to a new platform and there's around 0% of me going back, again, to play rtw.

The campaign map was absolute beast and you had guys who became generals some became governors and while battles were endless, isn't it just the best when you beat Hannibal turn 1?. The building micro, management of frontiers is just such a great fit for late-imperial peace-keeping and with the amount of units available you never get bored. A legion consists of several stacks and can be spread out to govern larger distances when not engaged.

Downside, r2tw never realized its potential to be available for modding.

Well CA made modding harder to be honest, they delayed modding tools, never gave us access to full modding potential and they also made many important features hardcoded. That was-is the main problem of R2.

This is impressive : you've perfectly summed up what got me bored of TW games after years of impassioned playing. This and the inability of the CAI to build up its empire and develop its conquered territories adequately in order to field competitive armies from mid-game to late-game.
Those problems didn't seem to disappear with the ancestral update : in every let's play I watched on youtube, only the artificial uprising system is making it difficult to the human player. They are boring to watch. The human player steamrolling is slower but is obviously still there. I have hope though with ToB's recruitment system making things better.

The AI's inability to expand and maintain a fully functional and challenging empire can't be fixed and won't be fixed by CA. It's the heart of their engine. We only have mods and ofc DEI to alleviate our issues with that.

[Jurand of Cracow]

To the "Close-to-perfect knowledge of the enemy" I would also had the "perfect knowledge of the enemy's potential movement". For me the possibility to add a random factor like weather, troops morale or fatigue to add uncertainty to any exact army's move would make this game mush more fun and enhance the strategic gameplay. At the momenit's just like every faction has satellites orbiting in the sky and little robot soldiers marching the same distance wherever they go.

Yes, indeed. It's why I'd love to have TW as a kind of RTS game - extensive argument it here - which would be based on:
- shorter turns (one-day)
- each faction (player, AI) taking decisions / planning simulaneously,
- turns passing not with the stroke of a button (ie the turns pass as you "let the time going"),
- campaign time freezes for the time of a battle (this is another "time universe").
This would solve many (thought not all) the TW system deficiencies, imho.

BTW - I think we've arrived to the point when "newer" games don't necessarily mean "better". In graphics, it's mostly correct, but not always and not for everybody. For instance, the M2TW type map (as in the EBII) is for me more immersive than the R2TW/ATW. It's a map of the empire, not of my wooden neighborhood, and the city-sprawl of the R2TW doesn't convince me at all. In diplomacy, the R2TW is indeed better but in M2TW it's also reasonable if you get ins-and-outs (admittedly, in the RTW it was utterly broken).

[~Seleukos.I.Nikator~]

Yes, indeed. It's why I'd love to have TW as a kind of RTS game - extensive argument it here - which would be based on:
- shorter turns (one-day)
- each faction (player, AI) taking decisions / planning simulaneously,
- turns passing not with the stroke of a button (ie the turns pass as you "let the time going"),
- campaign time freezes for the time of a battle (this is another "time universe").
This would solve many (thought not all) the TW system deficiencies, imho.

Personally, I do like the idea of a more RTS-styled campaign. Turn-based system is far too flawed with total unpredictability of CAI's movements and army stacks appearing out of nowhere.

Though, how this system could be implemented in TW games is another matter. Turn-based system is basically the very foundation of this series and if CA attempted to change this there would certainly be many opposing voices.

Atm the closeset we can get to the real-time strategy are the movement reduction mods where army manouvering becomes much more meaningful, both for the player and CAI. Once coupled with the 12/24 TPY mods, they greatly enhance the campaign realism. The only pain with this solution is the constant pressing of end-turn button and waiting time between player's turns. Not many have enough patience to play this way, I guess.

[The Wandering Storyteller]

A question to you all.

Had RTW 2 been released with these features: Family Tree, improved graphics and a streamlining of the traits and technology systems/improved battle mechanics(I say this as a vanilla player. If you want to criticise the warpath engine, be my guest.) - along with these new events/dilemas - on the 3rd of September 2013

How would you have rated RII then? Would it have been a great game? Or just another Empire?

[Jake Armitage]

Good question, but I have no experience to answer, my TW experiences cover a lot of M2 TATW campaign (with submods most of the times) and it was the most complete (funny and mature) experience I ever had with videogames.
I played some SS campaign too (really a good mod) but the lotr environment was too beautiful to go back to normal medieval.
I played some campaign with Shogun2 (vanilla) when it came out, bought it 'cause I love (and know a lot of things) that specific jap period. But it was a crap for campaign experience and i quit it after winning the first campaign.
About 2 years ago I begun playing DeI (never ever played vanilla) and (with some little adaptations i'm submodding) find it the most mature ever, not the funniest 'cause I think I'll never have the deep fun I had with TATW (mostly with alleycat's turtle submod, and early versions of DaC too).
There are still many possibilites thanks to lua scripting to improve Rome 2, and the fact that campaigns are mostly different one from the other gives it a great longevity.
Never played any other TW game, playing the older ones now would have no sense, and the new ones seems to be too arcadish for my tastes, seems that only battles are interesting to play, and I don't care too much about battles, I really can't play more than 1-2 per day.