5 Years Onwards. How does R2 and DeI compare to MED2/RTW mods?

[OJ33DA]

I know this has been probably asked a million times but I feel with the new Ancestral Update this should be brought up again. How does RomeII with DeI compare to RS, EBI/II, RTR and other user made mods for the older games? Is it worth it? Or does RomeII still have too many bugs to be considered enjoyable? How is the performance compared to the older games? Are the battles better? The ai?

Please feel free to add your answers and questions.

[Basilius]

IMO Pick the game with your favorite time period(s)/culture(s).

If you enjoy classical era combat, then yes I recommend R2: DEI over R1. Its only competitor is Atilla, though that is obviously late antiquity/early medieval.

[asher237]

DEI makes this game. Highly recommended.

[popovic]

DeI is the best of them, simply, because Rome 2 has the better base engine/game compared to those old (pre-Shogun 2) titles.

The AI is much more apt in R2, it uses full stacks instead of bunch of smaller ones etc.
No mods can fix bad AI, and since R2 is better than those older ones, it imo makes the game way more enjoyable than all the nice features that those older games had (custom maps etc.)

[Jurand of Cracow]

Well, given that this is in the R2TW-DEI forum, I don't expect that many dissent voices will be tolerated
If you're interested a few such opinions, there's a thread for it: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...eval-II-sucks!
For me, the main problem is as follows: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post15496464. The Ancestral update made much good to the R2TW engine but hasn't solved the underlying problem. I've heard it's alleviated somehow in the Thrones of Brittania, but I haven't bought it, so I cannot tell.
And, if you'd fancy playing M2TW again, here are the recommendations: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post15565610
Finally, having played DEI some 12 times, I'd definitely recommend playing it - the R2TW without it makes no sense, and the ATW-AE is no match yet (despite the ATW being undoubtedly a superior engine).
JoC

[Sonny WiFiHr]

Better

[Dresden]

As someone said you are probably asking on the wrong forum for an unbiased opinion, but Europa Barbarorum will always be my pick for the greatest mod of all time.

[ur-Lord Tedric]

For me the Battles in Roma Surrectum/RTW are just so brilliantly outstanding that it would take a lot to beat them. DeI has made R2 battles quite tolerable, however. 'Time Commanders' could be done with RTW - it couldn't with R2 as it would expose how little CA know about warfare in general (in any period) - mostly, perhaps in a little defence, because gamers like Holywood more than a simulation.

That said, overall, the things that lead to those tactical battles - the strategy of the Campaign - are much better with DeI/R2, because there is so much more to work with.

[Icarus Smicarus]

The RTW mods probably still have the best battles imo, very smooth and with imperfect, but working phalanxes. But the graphical inferiority and plain old stupidity of the AI will keep me from playing them ever again. Especially in campaign.

I'd say EB2 and DEI are about equal, with each performing better in particular gameplay aspects.

For example, DEI has a more fleshed out supply and population system. To counter that Eb2 has the old TW trait system, which completely trounces the new skills system in every respect from a role-playing perspective.

[~Seleukos.I.Nikator~]

For me the Battles in Roma Surrectum/RTW are just so brilliantly outstanding that it would take a lot to beat them.

Back in the past I stayed local to RS for a couple of years, not even trying other mods in the meantime. And those were beautiful years, indeed. Battles were very good, I concur, but there was also so much depth on the campaign map with brilliantly designed cursus honorum, etc. that made it really special. There was, I remember, one campaign with Rome that I was playing over the period of nearly two years, yet I've never actually finished it, roleplaying and micromanaging things in the greatest detail. Such pity this kind of systems can no longer be implemented in newer TW games.

The RTW mods probably still have the best battles imo, very smooth and with imperfect, but working phalanxes.

That said, however, when it comes to phalanx formation, the one we have in DeI is my favourite one, especially when it comes to the pike phalanx formation. I know that BAI struggles at times to use it the way we would like to see it done, but for me to lead myself a Hellenistic army composed of the first line of strong pike units is a truly great feeling.

[RoninSan]

I tried Medieval 2 with the Stainless Steel mod... looks very good but the Campaign Map lacks too much in-depth features that were problably not able to be modded so I ended up dropping the game.
I prefer Shogun 2 or Rome 2 (I can't try Atilla because of weak PC).

I hope a great team like this one here works in the future Three Kingdoms title because it can be one of my favorites TW based on theme.
But I still think CA is losing a lot of money by not making a Medieval 3 game.

[Sonny WiFiHr]

This will turn on old debate new engine vs old engine. Old engine had very different battles (everybody vs everybody). Old engine - you can't kill last soldiers with arrow / chance to hit is calculated on whole unit (including dead soldiers).
There was no working phalanx in old or new engine. Fix was disable swords and very buggy battles (hmm)

[lequintal69]

The RTW mods probably still have the best battles imo, very smooth and with imperfect, but working phalanxes. But the graphical inferiority and plain old stupidity of the AI will keep me from playing them ever again. Especially in campaign.

I'd say EB2 and DEI are about equal, with each performing better in particular gameplay aspects.

For example, DEI has a more fleshed out supply and population system. To counter that Eb2 has the old TW trait system, which completely trounces the new skills system in every respect from a role-playing perspective.

Except when traits start to up and you end up with generals having totally contradictory traits destroying your roleplaying (at least for me)

[Dresden]

There are also two things we have had to contend with that probably have limited us compared with some of the older mods. First, there have been 20+ patches/hotfixes and a metric ton of DLC that constantly breaks everything about the game and the mod. Trying to do an overhaul under those circumstances is like building a house while someone continues to redo the foundation. Older Total War games would get maybe 5 patches total. We have had to also do multiple campaigns other than the one grand campaign. The second thing is that we have had a lot more limits placed on modding possibilities in the newer titles. We have had to get a little creative to work around what is possible.

[OJ33DA]

Well thanks for the info. Looking back at the flaws of the old games, I think Im starting to tire of TW. Anyone can point to recommended historical RTS games? Ancestors Legacy looks pretty neat, and I hear Paradox is making a new Rome game...

[Irishmafia2020]

Hegemony III: clash of the ancients and Hegemony: Rome are two ancient era RTS games... I own them both, but I haven't played them much as I prefer DEI as my go to game. EB was a modding masterpiece, but a lot of the limitations of that RTW engine are gone in RTW2, which makes DEI the superior experience. There are a lot of factions, reforms, AOR units, and the battle AI is far more interesting than in RTW/EB. If you haven't tried DEI recently, then just realize that this mod has been evolving as a labor of love for years - it is different and better today than it was even a year ago!

[Malefidus]

When I get my Total War itch I play DEI. The time period doesn't particularly interest me compared to Medieval or Napoleonic but the mod is a masterpiece and nothing comes close.

I've barely played vanilla R2 but I haven't encountered many bugs if at all. Couple this with the engine improvements since Shogun 2(?) I find that playing the older games are just too mundane unless you're playing multiplayer. The AI is (even more) stupid compared to the latest installments. DEI repeatedly hands me my barbarian playing ass.

[Diocle]

RTW-Bi + mods is far superior to anything we may hope to see with the Warscape engine, which was born to depict warfare in the age of muskets (and is a total crap also for that). That said, DEI is a great Mod.

[Irishmafia2020]

I have played at least a thousand hours apiece in both Rome 1 and Rome 2, and I really thought that the battle AI was terrible and predictable in Rome 1... I am seeing a lot of praise for the AI in that engine, but the battles I have had in Rome 2 (with DEI) have been consistently more interesting and difficult. EB - a brilliant mod - became almost unplayable as I would win every single battle... In DEI I have faced really interesting tactical and strategic decisions in a number of games (including my current one). I think there is a fair debate as to which game has the better battle or strategic AI.

[Swarbs]

I have played at least a thousand hours apiece in both Rome 1 and Rome 2, and I really thought that the battle AI was terrible and predictable in Rome 1... I am seeing a lot of praise for the AI in that engine, but the battles I have had in Rome 2 (with DEI) have been consistently more interesting and difficult. EB - a brilliant mod - became almost unplayable as I would win every single battle... In DEI I have faced really interesting tactical and strategic decisions in a number of games (including my current one). I think there is a fair debate as to which game has the better battle or strategic AI.

Same here, although add a few hundred hours of Attila and probably over a thousand in M2.

The CAI in the old games was terrible as well - particularly in M2 you could negotiate trade rights and alliances with every faction on the map and they would betray you within five turns of your borders coming into contact. There was almost no possibility for a joint war or to fight for limited objectives, you either destroy them or just settle into a repeated pattern of them sending stacks of low quality troops at you which you would consistently pin, encircle and destroy.

That said, it is all broadly a matter of personal preference. The old battles were easy to win, but the engine was more consistent with no sliding / teleporting / units ice skating into each other. For all the problems with it, I still go back to SS for M2 from time to time.

Not EBII so much, I find the engine limitations too immersion breaking, particularly starting as Rome and facing nothing but barbarians in Messina, Syracuse and Cisalpine Gaul for the first ten turns. Not having a moddable map is a major setback for R2 / Attila, but at least it's a map full of factions, not factions separated by seas of barbarians which the CAI takes ages to deal with.