Franco's Mausoleum upsets Spain, again.

[Heathen Hammer]

Oh no, they executed a criminal for murdering a policeman! What a brutal act of inhumanity! Instead they should have given him a welfare check!

[Ludicus]

Oh no, they executed a criminal for murdering a policeman!

The key evidence was made disappear and the summary was altered to incriminate Puig Antich, according to Jordi Panyella, Universitat Autònoma de Barcelona, in his book Salvador Puig Antich, cas obert ( "open case")
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But the important point made here is the cruelty of dying with a collar on the neck, a medieval method of punishment and torture.In fact the murder of Salvador Puig provoked a huge response within the Spanish society - and forced Franco to abolish the torture.
National and International institutions, the EU, Willy Brandt and even the Pope Paul VI tried to avoid the barbaric execution.
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What the wikipedia can't teach you (you and other lovers of the Spanish and Italian fascism) about the Spanish History, is the fact that the year 1996 is a landmark year for Spain,
On 26 January, the Spanish government - the Right and the Left, by unanimous decision, gave Spanish citizenship to the Republican Brigadistas

What about that?

Allow me to enlighten you (you and the neo-fascist right around the world)

Spain welcomes the Brigadistas - Abraham Lincoln Brigade Archives
Excerpts,

The Associated Press: From an Arganda, Spain, dispatch by Leon
Lazaroff, Nov. 8, 1996

They fought against Franco's fascist forces. They were about to be granted Spanish citizenship.
In the mid-1930s, the great threat to Western democracies was the expansion of fascism. The international brigades were disbanded in the late 1930s, when Franco’s forces, supported heavily by Germany and Italy, were on the verge of victory.

The general unanimity of the Spanish people in warmly welcoming us as those who came in the 1930s committed to save Spanish democracy, was clearly shown in the press reports

Their visit to Spain to receive Spanish citizenship, as promised to them by the Republic they defended, was met with an enormously warm and loving reception. People in the streets embraced and kissed them with the same intensity as when they left Spain sixty years earlier.

...the parliamentary deputies of Aznar’s right-wing party voted to grant Spanish citizenship to the Brigadistas.

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Isn't America a great country? The Abraham Lincoln Brigade




During the bloody Spanish Civil War almost forty thousand men and women from fifty-two countries, including 2,800 Americans volunteered to travel to Spain and join the International Brigades to help fight fascism.Learn this: the conflict had a major impact on the US folk scene, eg. Pete Seeger ('ll Overcome", "We shall overcome") and many others.

From the album: Spain in My Heart - Songs of the Spanish Civil War, a wonderful interpretation of song "The Abraham Lincoln Brigade" by John McCutcheon

[Heathen Hammer]

The key evidence was made disappear and the summary was altered to incriminate Puig Antich, according to Jordi Panyella, Universitat Autònoma de Barcelona, in his book Salvador Puig Antich, cas obert ( "open case")

Franco forced him to rob a bank and murder a law enforcement officer? I mean at least garrote isn't as bad, in US he'd get the ole sparky for that one.

[Ludicus]

...and murder a law enforcement officer?.

We really don't know...read the book book Salvador Puig Antich, cas obert.
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I mean at least garrote isn't as bad, in US he'd get the ole sparky for that one.

i know you are trolling, I don't care. As a side note, the American electric chair is barbaric.
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1 -So what do you have to say about the Francoist concentration camps?
2 -What do you have to say about the fact that in 1996 the Spain's government stuck to a promise made 40 years ago by offering Spanish citizenship to the foreign volunteers who fought to defend the Republican government in the 1936-1939 Civil War?

[Heathen Hammer]

We really don't know...read the book book Salvador Puig Antich, cas obert.

I didn't ask for a revisionist reading list. There are plenty of books with hot takes about famous criminals being innocent and such.

What do you have to say about the fact that in 1996 the Spain's government stuck to a promise made 40 years ago by offering Spanish citizenship to the foreign volunteers who fought to defend the Republican government in the 1936-1939 Civil War?

Given how that moron we have here for Prime Minister is welcoming ISIS terrorists here (Stalinist insurgents being the ISIS of the 30s Spain), that doesn't really phase me.

[Ludicus]

I didn't ask for a revisionist reading list.

The victims of Franco's tribunals are raising their voices.Spain seeks justice for the final victim of Franco's garrote, the scapegoat of a regime thirsty for revenge. Years ago,Zapatero started a recuperation process for all the families that had to suffer Franco's dictatorship in their fight for democracy and freedom of speech and women rights.Zapatero started what Sánchez wants to finish now.Read below (1)

Given how that moron we have here for Prime Minister is welcoming ISIS terrorists here (Stalinist insurgents being the ISIS of the 30s Spain), that doesn't really phase me.

I know, the 20th century Spanish Holocaust makes you happy. I'm not surprised, what can we expect from Muslims haters, white supremacists, neofascists and neonazis and all that trash?

(1) Cry HH. The Francoist Part ( VOX) gets funding from Franco Foundation/ Franco loyalists, and guess what? after the exhumation of Franco,Pedro Sanchez is ready to ban the Franco Foundation, also fund the exhumation of mass graves from the Spanish Civil War, and groups idolizing Franco will become illegal.
The VOX doesn't have an army in North Africa in order to start the Spanish Civil War 2.

[BundesReich]

R.I.P. The Mackenzie-Papineau Brigade and all the other workers who downed their tools to go and fight the good fight against those whom would only a few years later annihilate the Jews of Europe.

[Heathen Hammer]

I don't think that mass grave descecrations of long-deceased political opponents is a way to gain political support. This would be analogous to Trump removing LBJ's grave, or Obama doing that to Eisenhower's grave. If anything, democratic nationalists in VOX will have influx of votes from people who were closer to the center, but still don't approve of current government's ISIS-style activities, regardless of whether they are committed in the name of "prophet" Muhammad or "equality". Socialism and religious fundamentalism seem to operate on the same intellectual level.

[Common Soldier]

The affair concerns the Valley of the Fallen, a colossal monument financed, built and endorsed in any other manner by the Francoist regime that ruled over Spain and her colonies for almost 4 decades. It consists of a gigantic crucifix (the tallest in the world) accompanied by an equally large basilica and an abbey reserved for Benedictine monks.

Spoiler for Not exactly a paragon of Christian humility and moderation: 

Inside the church of the Holy Cross, there are the buried bodies of two notorious protagonists of Spanish history, Francisco Franco himself, and José Antonio Primo de Rivera, son of the dictator Miguel Primo de Rivera and the creator of the Phalanx, the strongest fascist and Antisemitic party in Spain. Supposedly, the entire establishment is dedicated to the memory of the victims of the Civil War, quite a fragile claim, as I will explain later. The recent controversy started when the government, dominated by a center-left coalition, passed a decree, according to which the remains of Franco, who is definitely not a victim of the conflict, will be exhumed and transferred to a new location, indicated by his family. As expected, that law caused reaction from various groups. For example and not unsurprisingly unfortunately, both the Popular Party and the Citizens, both of them right-wing parties with a strong presence in the Parliament, objected to the government's initiative, under the pretext of "opening old wounds". I guess that their leaderships view the defense of the Francoist heritage as a convenient tool for luring fascist sympathizers.

Obviously, there is no doubt that Franco benefited greatly, instead of suffering, from the coup he launched, as he evolved from a military governor of the Canary Islands to the undisputed leader of the entire Spanish state, from Equatorial Guinea to the Pyrenees. However, this controversy over his remains touches the most sensitive issue in Spanish modern politics, the fact that the state is not capable of maturely treating with its fascist path. The crux of the matter lies with the negative repercussions of the peaceful transition from autocracy to democracy, in the late '70s. As a compensation for surrendering the political power to parliamentary democracy, the Francoist elites, from army officers to industrialists and politicians who collaborated with Franco, were granted amnesty and were never punished for their crimes against the Spanish people, while also maintaining at a high level the command of the country's armed forces, judiciary system and economy. As a result, fascist heroes still receive unacceptable honours, while honest judges are stopped from performing the duty against butchers that committed crimes against humanity. This is why I believe that the problem of the degree is that it's too moderate, without addressing major issues that harm the international image of the Spain authorities as an institution that can proudly condemn fascism and violation of human rights.

For example, it's crystal clear that the Valley of the Fallen is far from an objective memorial to the victims of the Civil War. The entire complex with its kitsch obsession with religious obedience screams of National Catholicism, which can be approximately described as the local version of clerical fascism. Secondly, many of the workers that built it were political convicts, which means leftists that were imprisoned for their personal beliefs. Thirdly, the two figures that are especially honoured belong to the Nationalist side and can hardly be viewed as some innocent victims of the war. Francisco Franco, together with many officers, conservative politicians, clergymen, Carlists and the fascists of Phalanx conspired against the sovereign and democratically elected government of Madrid, directly provoking the war. They are essentially the perpetrators and not the victims and, to be sincere, honouring a fascist that was rightfully executed for treason seems particularly weird.

Furthermore, I personally find the whole appeal to moderation, treating both sides of the conflict on an equal basis, hypocritical and insincere. From a moral and legal perspective, the Nationalists launched a military coup against a democratically elected government recognized by the global community, in an alliance with the fascist and Nazi regimes of Italy, Portugal and Germany. In contrast to the government of Madrid, the Nationalist authorities intentionally massacred hundreds of thousands of Spaniards, in a White Terror campaign of slaughter and fear that resulted into the establishment of a tyrannical dictatorship that abolished crucial rights of the Spanish citizens. The notion of conciliation has some merit, but the politically correct excuse of not reigniting old disputes insults the memory of the massacred and undermines the legitimacy of democratic Spain. In my opinion, the Valley of the Fallen should be relieved from the skeletons of successful (Francisco) and failed (José Antonio) Führer wannabes and be consequently transformed into a monument that will remind the future generations of Spaniards about the horrors of the civil war and the subsequent totalitarian regime, warning them about the threat to democracy military interventionism represents.

So, what are your thoughts? Is the decision about the naughty Caudillo praiseworthy, unacceptably moderate or maybe completely inappropriate to Franco's glory? Should Spain deal in a determined way with its fascist past or tolerate the relics of the dictatorship for the sake of preserving social cohesion? Last but not least, should the Spanish Civil War be examined from the state through extremely neutral lenses, by avoiding any blaming and therefore absolving the culprits from their responsibilities or not?

Mishkin's addition

Although it is not politically correct to admit, both sides committed atrocities, and the Republicans сommitted their share of massacres, and as bad as the National's were, they pale in comparison to the ateocities committed by Communist regions like Stalin, and Mao, or other regions like Turkey's treatment of Armenians. The Asruria Revolution demonstrated atrociries on both sides, and demonstrated thr intolerance of the left as well.as the right - it was triggered essentially because the left didn't like the resultz of voting, proving many that many of the left were intolerant of their own, and were perfectly willing to rssort to force if they didn't get their way through democracy.

I can see that including Franco amoung the victims of the Spanish Civil War when he caused many of those victims might be somewhat inappropriate. On the other hand, while Franco's hands were bloody, so we're many on the other side were equally bloody, and other all given the track record of leftist regimes from Cambodia, China, Soviet Union and the like, it is highly debatable that that a leftist regime would not have eventually been any less bloody


The track record of socialist governments like Rebulican Spain in the 1930's seems fhaf more radical leftist forced ended up.taking over from the moderate and reasonable socialist initially in charge. Whether Republican Spain would have avoided that fate if it had successfully managed to suppress the rebellion is a question that we will never be able to answer.

Perhap instead of removing Franco, Spain could bury leaders on the other side there as well, so both sides would be represented.

Neither side in the Spanish Civil War were gultless.

[Prodromos]

So... if wou were a spaniard in 1939 you would have fought boths sides. Cool.

And... I suppose you agree with the transfer of the remains of a fascist dictator and that at least the function of the mausoleum that was built around the grave be changed. Cool cool cool.

I don't agree or disagree. I don't really care either way.

Let's wait for his reply...

My dear Ludicus, it seems you failed to understand my post. Remember, this multi-page back-and-forth started with Abdulmecid claiming that since the fascists were evil, undemocratic, etc., neutrality is not an option, and we are obligated to actively support their enemies, the communists.

I say there is no obligation to side with either faction. Siding with one evil against another is still siding with evil, and there are no circumstances where rooting for evil is the best course of action.

I'm not a fan of this Manichean mentality that a lot of people seem to have, where the enemy of their enemy is necessarily their friend. It's indicative of weakness and worldliness.

Personally, I don't view fascism as an ideology that's "on my side" but whose methods are just too extreme, as if fascism is a weapon of last resort against communism. No, I view it as an enemy ideology, no different from communism. So as an anti-communist, I'm perfectly happy to condemn both communism and fascism as equally grave evils.

Now, do anti-fascists unequivocally condemn both fascism and communism? Sometimes they do, but oftentimes they only condemn the former. And that's the problem.

[Heathen Hammer]

I think the problem is that anti-fascists not only do not condemn communism, they are themselves for the most part socialists, which makes them one the same moral ground as fascists. Authoritarianism is only just as good as any other authoritarianism.

[Infidel144]

Do you know why you think I ignore or minimize "red terror"? Because until fifteen or twenty years ago the commons of the Spaniards (like me) had never heard of it. I know that term now thanks to the fact that here in these forums some conservatives have mentioned it a couple of times in recent years.

As I said, Ignorance. And 'I think you ignore or minimize it' because that is what you did, going so far as to say I was lying and exaggerating (even though your own source supported my assertion).
Of course there is likely another reason you have for minimizingthe 'Red Terror', that being because it was done by your communazi comrades.

I grant you that the number of dead clergyman was 6.832, my apologies for saying otherwise. From your words (from your slience) I understand that these deaths (and the 37 dead in the Asturian workers revolt of 1934) are the only ones that matter to you.

That, naturally, makes your apology ring hollow.
While you continue with the attempt at a subject change, continue to indulge in Pillar of the Left #2 and continue to display ignorance. Perhaps you should live up to your own standards and wholeheartedly and unreservedly condemn your brethren (i.e. "sections of nearly all left-wing groups involved in the Spanish Civil War") who carried out the "Red Terror".

Personally, I don't view fascism as an ideology that's "on my side" but whose methods are just too extreme, as if fascism is a weapon of last resort against communism. No, I view it as an enemy ideology, no different from communism. So as an anti-communist, I'm perfectly happy to condemn both communism and fascism as equally grave evils.

Commies and nazis killing each other = win-win, as long as they don't involve others.

[Heathen Hammer]

It is weird and disturbing that we have to explain to local leftists on why authoritarianism is bad.

[Ludicus]

I think the problem is that anti-fascists not only do not condemn communism.

I see, you are not anti-fascist, you don't have a problem with fascism. When fascism starts to feel normal, we're all in trouble.

socialists.. them one the same moral ground as fascists. Authoritarianism .

That's blatant stupidity. Pedro Sanchez is socialist, anti-authoritarian, a truly democrat and anti-communist. Authoritarianism, intolerance and hate is an hallmark of Trump's supporters ( you and many others) , Abascal supporters, Orban's supporters, etc.
Racism and authoritarianism go hand in hand.The rise of the VOX is not a surprise: francoists joined its ranks.Vox's rhetoric plays with notions of a Spanish "rebirth"; it is anti-feminist, racist/xenophobic, and even calls for the reconquest of North Africa.The fascistoid Party wants more:Franco era-street names to return to the country, shut mosques, Gibraltar, repeal the law on gender violence,repeal the law that bans Franco-era symbols and envisages compensation to dictatorship's victims.
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Very recently, a joint resolution signed by the political groups of the EU Parliament seems to equate communism with nazism. The European communist parties are enraged. On 23 September, the General Secretary of the Communist Party of Spain (PCTE) issued an open letter to the general Secretary of the Spanish Socialist Workers Party and prime Minister Sanchez. The letter says, (small excerpt). Full letter here,Pedro Sánchez - In Defense of Communism

"...This resolution shamefully suggests that signing of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact was what caused WW2.It aims to settle and generalize the idea that both Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union are to blame of such war...and all of that Pedro, is made on behalf of an alleged struggle against "totalitarianism". which is nothing but the disguise you use to try criminalize the only ideology that truly put it against the ropes the capitalist dominance that you, your Government and your part defend so much"
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European Socialists are not communists.American Socialists are not communists.Sanders isn't communist.
In 1974, my country's leftist sympathies focused on the Socialists, not the Communists.Read the History of the Portuguese revolution.Today, We Celebrate the Carnation Revolution - Jacobin

It is telling that while Francisco Franco’s archive is in his family’s hands, Portuguese dictator António Salazar’s papers are available to the public. What began on April 25 as a coup d’état led immediately to the complete dismantling of the dictatorship’s political regime, but more than that, it was also the seed of a social revolution...The Portuguese Communist Party, even more than the Maoists, created the idea that there was a danger that fascism would return...The claim that fascism was a real threat was, frankly, ridiculous: within a few days of April 25 the population had entirely destroyed the old regime, from the censor’s office to the political police, the fascist newspapers, the old trade unions, and so on.

...And now, Portugal Prime Minister Is Re-Elected as Socialists Solidify Position
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Have you learned anything, or should I quote one of my favourite Aesop's fables, Pullus ad Margaritam?

[alhoon]

Let's try to remember the Mudpit rules of posting respectfully and trying to be impersonal. If things remain heated, posts will start getting deleted for not following the mudpit posting guidelines.

[Ludicus]

Just a few hours ago, Spain's ruling socialists strike coalition deal with Podemos | World

We’ve reached a preliminary agreement to form a progressive coalition government in Spain, a progressive coalition government that combines the PSOE’s experience with the courage of Unidas Podemos.
A government that works towards dialogue when it comes to the territorial crisis and for social justice as the best vaccine against the far right,

[Abdülmecid I]

Bit of a Slowpoke comment on my part, but oh well...

I'm gonna let you in on a little secret: fascists, socialists and communists are all equally God-hating, mass-murdering tyrants. If we side with one of them, thinking they'll save us from the others, we'll just join them in Hell for all eternity. We're not effeminates in prison who have to go with one thug as protection from all the other thugs. Have a little pride. We can and should fight against all evildoers, whether they're communists, socialists, fascists or whatever other label Satan's minions identify with nowadays.

I understand your perspective, but I think your judgement is distorted by a misunderstanding of the nature of the Spanish civil war. The Republicans were not composed exclusively of Communists. In fact, the Communist party was only a relatively minor member of the governing coalition, where center-leftists and progressives, like the Republican Union and the Spanish Socialist Worker's Party, held the most prominent positions.

Moreover, the most important domestic ally of Madrid was the Basque government, headed by the the Nationalists and composed of such ardent Christians that it caused serious issues for the propaganda of the Nationalists. After all, the Nationalists themselves were not just fascists. On the contrary, their ranks also included mainstream conservatives, royalists, Carlists, opportunistic army officers, Muslim regular infantry and exotic figures, like the Moulay Hassan, the Grand Vizier of Tétouan, so the real image is a bit more nuanced than the supposed struggle between Red Guards and black-shirts.

Meanwhile, the government was defended by administrative officials located in the upper echelons of the bureaucratic hierarchy and even by right-wing generals, who paid their loyalty to their oath and Constitution with their lives. In these cases, the moral obligation of Christians is unambiguously determined by the ''Render unto Caesar'' episode, as narrated by the entirety of our synoptic Gospels. Here, Jesus clearly instructs his followers to obey and follow the authority of legitimate and sovereign secular regimes. Considering that the Popular Front government in the capital was unanimously recognized on an international scale and that the aforementioned political coalition enjoyed, through elections, a popular mandate to exercise executive power, I can only conclude that the duty of every good, Catholic Spaniard was to support the government, threatened by a coup orchestrated by a cabal of conspiring individuals.

Have to agree Abdulmecid, and its worth teasing out the horendous complexity of the Spanish Civil war further. Franco represents an extreme fringe of the Right, as the murderous Russian Communist faction represented the extreme fringe of the Left. I would oppose the deification of Soviet "volunteers' or other opportunists anti-democratic elements: the poor soldiers were not there willingly I guess, and Stalin was involved for his own evil agenda as were Hitler and Mussolini.

I don't think that the objectives of the Soviet Union were particularly nefarious. No doubt that she aimed at strengthening her own geopolitical interests, but the fact remains that the Soviets were essentially the only country (with the possible exception of Mexico) that had the decency to protect the legitimate and sovereign government of Spain. Credit where credit is due, even if it rewards bloodthirsty tyrants like Stalin. Meanwhile, the Third Reich, the Kingdom of Italy and Salazar's Portugal openly backed the putschists, while the United Kingdom, where many Tories were more sympathetic towards Franco's cause, maintained a hypocritical neutrality and a failed blockade (since the other guarantors were Hitler and Mussolini), at the expense of the Spanish Republic. Even more absurdly, the French government of the Popular Front generally endorsed the British foreign policy and mostly closed the border in the Pyrenees. This embarrassing attitude was a shameful spat on diplomatic convention, inter-state law and even the alleged solidarity between leftist and progressive movements. Without the contribution of the USSR, the Spanish Republic would have disintegrate much more rapidly, a collapse which would have rather grave repercussions for political activists, progressives and government officials, if we take into account the methods the military junta employed to restore public order.

[Cyclops]

I understand your perspective, but I think your judgement is distorted by a misunderstanding of the nature of the Spanish civil war. The Republicans were not composed exclusively of Communists. In fact, the Communist party was only a relatively minor member of the governing coalition, where center-leftists and progressives, like the Republican Union and the Spanish Socialist Worker's Party, held the most prominent positions.......

Yes support for Franco ITT coincides with a complete ignorance of what he was fighting against. "The legitimate government was just about to establish automatic gay space communism where foetuses were consumed for breakfast and they HAD TO BE STOPPED". Its hardly worth responding to.

...
I don't think that the objectives of the Soviet Union were particularly nefarious. No doubt that she aimed at strengthening her own geopolitical interests, but the fact remains that the Soviets were essentially the only country (with the possible exception of Mexico) that had the decency to protect the legitimate and sovereign government of Spain. Credit where credit is due, even if it rewards bloodthirsty tyrants like Stalin. Meanwhile, the Third Reich, the Kingdom of Italy and Salazar's Portugal openly backed the putschists, while the United Kingdom, where many Tories were more sympathetic towards Franco's cause, maintained a hypocritical neutrality and a failed blockade (since the other guarantors were Hitler and Mussolini), at the expense of the Spanish Republic. Even more absurdly, the French government of the Popular Front generally endorsed the British foreign policy and mostly closed the border in the Pyrenees. This embarrassing attitude was a shameful spat on diplomatic convention, inter-state law and even the alleged solidarity between leftist and progressive movements. Without the contribution of the USSR, the Spanish Republic would have disintegrate much more rapidly, a collapse which would have rather grave repercussions for political activists, progressives and government officials, if we take into account the methods the military junta employed to restore public order.

Happy to be corrected but my impression is the Soviets backed communist elements in Spain to murder and subvert their way into control of the Republican forces and alienated a lot of Republicans and foreign volunteers: in a way they made Phalangist predictions come true. France and the UK were staying out in any case, but Soviet involvement removed any chance of that policy changing.

Soviet policy at this stage was Stalin's policy and he was an utterly evil bastard who makes the Caudillo look like a choir boy. His brutal cynicism is evident throughout his career and his forces were definitely not in Spain for the benefit of the legitimate government. By contributing to the Civil war brutality and misery he neutralised Spain as a possible member of a putative anti-Comintern crusade, so in many ways it was mission accomplished.

[Heathen Hammer]

Yes support for Franco ITT coincides with a complete ignorance of what he was fighting against. "The legitimate government was just about to establish automatic gay space communism where foetuses were consumed for breakfast and they HAD TO BE STOPPED". Its hardly worth responding to.

Yeah, Stalinism was a great gift to the world, tens of millions of people who were executed and starved to death by "progressive" Dzhugashvili can't lie!

[Ludicus]

Happy to be corrected but my impression is the Soviets backed communist elements in Spain to murder and subvert their way into control of the Republican forces.

It didn't happen.
I would argue that the elected President Azaña was not communist;on 10th May 1936 Azaña replaced the conservative Zamora as President of Spain.Immediately, Franco began plotting to overthrow the Popular Front government, and within two months, this resulted in the outbreak of the Civil war on 17 th July.
The American journalist Edward Knoblaugh wrote in 1927 "In getting these discordant elements together Azaña lived up to his reputation as the shrewdest and cleverest politician in Spain.Azaña lived up to his reputation as the shrewdest and cleverest politician in Spain."
And the rest is history.
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the neutralised Spain as a possible member of a putative anti-Comintern crusade,

Possible=pure speculation. Reality check: Franco forged a fascist regime, not a democracy. Franco was not a choir boy; fascism/nazism is no better than communism.