Page 5 of 12 FirstFirst 123456789101112 LastLast
Results 81 to 100 of 222

Thread: Franco's Mausoleum upsets Spain, again.

  1. #81
    swabian's Avatar igni ferroque
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    4,294

    Default Re: Franco's Mausoleum upsets Spain, again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    I'm not talking with you - and sumskilz doesn't need your help.
    --
    Btw, an amazing an amazing collection of - Francisco Franco Stock Photos and Pictures | Getty Images
    How many are they? A "populist" movement? Well, how popular is that? You're not seeing clearly in my opinion. Even if they truly whish a world back where Europeans can do what they want, which i doubt. It is not coming back. Those people are scared much more than angry and ready to fight. This is not a dreadful sight, it is pitiful.

  2. #82

    Default Re: Franco's Mausoleum upsets Spain, again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Oh come on, there are a lot of images on hand of "innocuous people doing fascist salutes"
    Yeah, I don't really know what I'm seeing here. Is there some mainstream Francoist cult that makes pilgrimages to his burial site, or was this a couple hundred protesters trolling the current government by doing something they're not supposed to do.

    Maybe some outside eye witnesses can clear things up:

    Amid the pro-Franco protesters, a group of eight Australian tourists looked on with surprise. “We were not expecting to this, we are a little confused,” said 19-year-old Bradley Pool.
    Oh... okay...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    I understand you very well.
    Judging by the seriousness with which you're taking my every comment, I doubt that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  3. #83
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
    Citizen

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    13,065

    Default Re: Franco's Mausoleum upsets Spain, again.

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    I don't really know what I'm seeing here...Is there some mainstream Francoist cult that makes pilgrimages to his burial site, or was this a couple hundred protesters trolling the current government by doing something they're not supposed to do.
    Does it really matter? in fact, both. You don't give up...
    From the link,

    Protesters traveled from across Spain chanting slogans such as: “Long live Spain;” “Don’t touch the Valley;” and “Franco, Franco, Franco!” outside the basilica that holds Franco’s tomb. Pilar Gutiérrez, the president of Movement for Spain, which organized the protest said: “Franco isn’t dead. Anyone who dies in Christ is not dead.
    Quoting El Pais, Spanish Civil War: Hundreds protest to keep Franco's remains in ...

    While waiting to enter the basilica on Sunday, some of the protesters posed for photos, making fascist salutes and unfurling the eagle-emblazoned pre-constitutional Spanish flag. The Historical Memory Law – legislation that seeks to recognize victims on both sides of Spain’s Civil War (1936-39) – bans all “political acts or any act that celebrate the Civil War, its protagonists or the Franco dictatorship” at the Valley of the Fallen. But even though it was approved in 2007, various organizations continue to hold demonstrations there in honor of the dictator.
    Fascists, that what we are talking about.The australian tourists are irrelevant to the topic.
    --
    On a side note, I see nothing wrong with the allegedly "fake photo". "What an odd behavior:..ponchos..." you said. So what? fascists are not forbidden to wear ponchos. -Anuncios de Ponchos de segunda mano en Madrid
    ----
    No, sumskilz, Franco was not the "good fascist". During the Civil war, the Falangist press regurgitated a virulent antisemitic bile, and the measures against Jews in occupied Europe were highly praised. In the post war period, the synagogues remained closed.
    Twentieth-Century Spain: A History, quoting,
    "At his victory parade on 19 May 1939, Franco promised to be ever watchful against "the Jewish spirit which permitted the alliance of big capital with Marxism".

    And, even worse, a few months later, he justified the persecution of "those races marked by the stigma of their greed and self-interest".(sic)

    That's the reason why Spain and Albania were the only European nations which did not have official relations with Israel in 1975. This long, strained relationship may have led to the decision by many Jews from Spain to make aliyah,15 and in all 1,412 Jews left Spain for this purpose between 1948 and 2008 (Encyclopedia of the Jewish Diaspora 904). The Jews in Spain Under Francisco Franco - W&M ScholarWorks

    ---
    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    Judging by the seriousness with which you're taking my comment
    Well, read above. Precisely. That's the point.I don't want understand your sense of humor.
    The truth is, instead of coming here to share your thoughts on this topic, you came here to make a sneaky remark on an allegedly fake photo portraying "totally innocuous looking people doing fascist salutes".
    Last edited by Ludicus; August 29, 2018 at 11:47 AM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  4. #84

    Default Re: Franco's Mausoleum upsets Spain, again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    You don't give up...
    Uhh... you're the one continuing to badger me post after post about I have no idea what, and apparently attributing bizarre opinions to me completely unrelated to anything I've written. Although I did enjoy your tirade about fascists being permitted to wear ponchos, that was gold.

    It was Swabian who thinks the photo is fake. I just find it bemusing. European political cultures seem so utterly foreign from an American perspective, despite the common heritage.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  5. #85
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
    Citizen

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    13,065

    Default Re: Franco's Mausoleum upsets Spain, again.

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    European political cultures seem so utterly foreign from an American perspective
    Well, you are the social anthropologist, not me.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  6. #86

    Default Re: Franco's Mausoleum upsets Spain, again.

    The body of Franco has been finally exhumed and is currently transferred to the family mausoleum, which is located in a picturesque cemetery near the artificial lake of Prado. There's still a lot to be done, so that Spain can unambiguously denounce the totalitarian regime Franco imposed, after firstly overthrowing a democratically elected government and killing hundreds of thousands in the process, but this initiative is a tiny, baby step towards the right direction. Some even suggest that the now Franco-less monument should be demolished, but, in my opinion, transforming it into a museum about the civil war and the subsequent military junta would be the best scenario.

    Commemorating the victims of the atrocities is also welcome, although it should be made crystal clear that moral neutrality is not an option, even for the most adamant conservative. On the one side, we have a legitimate and sovereign parliamentary democracy, who mostly tried to stop its supporters from arming themselves and committing massacres against their opponents, and on the other hand, there's a coalition of military officers, fascists, royalists and... extreme absolutists, who conspired and launched a brutal coup and war against the aforementioned democracy, while also openly endorsing the method of mass-murdering civilians, as an efficient tactic of instilling fear and maintaining public order. I suspect that, in these cases, calls for neutrality and straddling the fence are neither sincere nor impartial. The country needs to deal with her not so distant past, not by propagating a politically correct version of its modern history, but by openly confronting the reasons, nature and consequences of the 1936 putsch.

  7. #87
    saxdude's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    House of Erotic Maneuvering
    Posts
    10,420

    Default Re: Franco's Mausoleum upsets Spain, again.

    His remains should be burned and pissed on, to avoid the worship he's been given so far. Anything less than Mussolini or Hitler's treatment is injustice.

  8. #88
    Miles
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Wales... New South Wales.
    Posts
    383

    Default Re: Franco's Mausoleum upsets Spain, again.

    I'm not a fan of exhuming corpses. What if there's some sort of gypsie curse on the burial grounds? Franco's a dictator he can afford those.

  9. #89
    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    The Hell called Conscription
    Posts
    35,615

    Default Re: Franco's Mausoleum upsets Spain, again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    The country needs to deal with her not so distant past, not by propagating a politically correct version of its modern history, but by openly confronting the reasons, nature and consequences of the 1936 putsch.
    Impossible because Barcelona would find an excuse to get independence.
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Cameron is midway between Black Rage and .. European Union ..

  10. #90

    Default Re: Franco's Mausoleum upsets Spain, again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    As a result, fascist heroes still receive unacceptable honours, while honest judges are stopped from performing the duty against butchers that committed crimes against humanity.
    Not against humanity, against the leftists, which is they were the only ones promoting this.

    More to the point, Franco won the war, ruled the country for several decades and went down to the annals of history as the face of it during that period. The Spanish Civil War can not be conceived or understood without him. At the very least he deserves to be remembered as an extraordinary man that left his mark upon the country, even if one disagrees with the direction he steered it towards. The victims of his regime, on the other hand, are just a faceless, nameless throng today. The notion of administering "justice" in their memory simply reveals insecurity and inability to get over historical grievances from the assing Franco gave to the political and/or biological forefathers of its proponents, in short pettiness.
    "Blessed is he who learns how to engage in inquiry, with no impulse to hurt his countrymen or to pursue wrongful actions, but perceives the order of the immortal and ageless nature, how it is structured."
    Euripides

    "This is the disease of curiosity. It is this which drives to try and discover the secrets of nature, those secrets which are beyond our understanding, which avails us nothing and which man should not wish to learn."
    Augustine

  11. #91

    Default Re: Franco's Mausoleum upsets Spain, again.

    For an atrocity to be qualified as a crime against humanity, it is not necessary requirement that its victims belong to the entirety of the political spectrum. Unless someone considers the targeted group as subhumans, but that depends on subjective criteria and is irrelevant to the objective definition of the term. In any case, you are completely wrong about the atrocities committed by Franco's regime. They were directed against anyone opposing the coup, progressive or conservative. A very large number of right-wing officers, who had either not joined the conspiracy or refused to participate later, were summarily executed, like Manuel Romerales, Enrique Salcedo and Rogelio Caridad Pita, to name just three.

    Anyway, I'm not sure how transferring his body to a less monumental place is equivalent to insecurity or to erasing him from historical memory. It's simply fixing the contradiction of a parliamentary democracy honouring a general who plotted and overthrew its predecessor less than 100 years ago. In my opinion, it reveals the exact opposite, Spain's determination to confront the darkest pages of her modern history. On the other hand, protesting against this initiative gives me the impression of denying the reality about Franco being a ruthless butcher and the fact the influence of his junta's principles are constantly declining.

  12. #92
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
    Citizen

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    13,065

    Default Re: Franco's Mausoleum upsets Spain, again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timoleon of Korinthos View Post
    he deserves to be remembered as an extraordinary man that left his mark upon the country, even if one disagrees with the direction he steered it towards
    You don't disagree, of course.Far-right wing fascination with dictators never ceases to amaze me.Abajo la inteligencia, viva la muerte!
    ---
    Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, Pinochet - they all deserve to be remembered as "extraordinary men".
    Last edited by Ludicus; October 26, 2019 at 02:58 PM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  13. #93

    Default Re: Franco's Mausoleum upsets Spain, again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    For an atrocity to be qualified as a crime against humanity, it is not necessary requirement that its victims belong to the entirety of the political spectrum. Unless someone considers the targeted group as subhumans, but that depends on subjective criteria and is irrelevant to the objective definition of the term.
    So does the definition of crime.

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    A very large number of right-wing officers, who had either not joined the conspiracy or refused to participate later, were summarily executed, like Manuel Romerales, Enrique Salcedo and Rogelio Caridad Pita, to name just three.
    Yes, a very large number...like three...maybe even...ten? Because a very large number of right-wing officers sided with communists, anarchists, Basque separatists and their sympathizers in the war, haha!

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    Anyway, I'm not sure how transferring his body to a less monumental place is equivalent to insecurity or to erasing him from historical memory. It's simply fixing the contradiction of a parliamentary democracy honouring a general who plotted and overthrew its predecessor less than 100 years ago.
    Well, let me explain it to you:

    For one, the governing coalition Franco overthrew were not themselves democrats, even if they had been brought to power though elections (so were the Nazis in Germany and the communists in Hungary): it engulfed avowed political enemies of parliamentary democracy that simply failed to dismantle it first.

    Secondly and more importantly, Spain is not a form of government but a nation, whose mode of political organization has underwent various transformations throughout the course of its history. Therefore, belittling the memory of one of the nation's great historical figures, which is what "transferring his body to a less monumental place" amounts to, because he was not bound by republican principles or the values of liberal humanism is as stupid as besmirching Cortez and Alvarado, because they did not respect the human rights of the Aztecs and the Tlaxcalans, and it is of course motivated by an undying sense of political butt-hurt over the defeat of the proponents' ideological and/or biological forefathers' in the Civil War, which is what really makes this move pathetic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    On the other hand, protesting against this initiative gives me the impression of denying the reality about Franco being a ruthless butcher and the fact the influence of his junta's principles are constantly declining.
    Oh, but he was, we are all aware of it, we right wingers applaud him for it and, truth be told, *all* Spaniards should be thankful for it, because if he hadn't been, their country would have turned into a second world under prolonged left-wing rule, just like Argentina did, and they would still be trying to recover from that slump into poverty today.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    You don't disagree, of course.Far-right wing fascination with dictators never ceases to amaze me.Abajo la inteligencia, viva la muerte!
    ---
    Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, Pinochet - they all deserve to be remembered as "extraordinary men".
    Mussolini was a fool, but regarding the other ones yes, and precisely the fact that they were extraordinary men is the reason they are not just remembered but even venerated by many today, whereas you will leave behind you the same historical footprint as a bug. Of course, besides Stalin, who is an easy scapegoat for dishonest moderates, Chavez, Castro, Peron, Ho Chi Minch, Mao Zedong, Lenin and all the other heroes of the Left were extraordinary men too, but you shy away from using the term dictator, because you don't want to draw attention to the fact that there is an inherent inconsistency between what your ideology professes in theory and what it is bound to bring about in practice.
    Last edited by Timoleon of Korinthos; October 26, 2019 at 06:34 PM.
    "Blessed is he who learns how to engage in inquiry, with no impulse to hurt his countrymen or to pursue wrongful actions, but perceives the order of the immortal and ageless nature, how it is structured."
    Euripides

    "This is the disease of curiosity. It is this which drives to try and discover the secrets of nature, those secrets which are beyond our understanding, which avails us nothing and which man should not wish to learn."
    Augustine

  14. #94
    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    15,694
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: Franco's Mausoleum upsets Spain, again.

    There is not much more to discuss if you believe that "extraordinary men" (or men who for any reason occupied extraordinary positions) always deserve to be honored, without considering the damage they caused to their contemporaries (From 1936 - 1975, people from all regions of spain) and their descendants (there are still thousands of people suffering because the remains of their grandparents are buried in a common grave, on the edge of a truck... or in the valle de los caídos, a monument built to commemorate the victory of the fascist rebel group after a bloody civil war).

    Quote Originally Posted by Swiss Army Cheese View Post
    I'm not a fan of exhuming corpses. What if there's some sort of gypsie curse on the burial grounds? Franco's a dictator he can afford those.
    Our local "white identitarian" clowns have alluded to the curse of tutankamon (link in spanish)

    Santiago Abascal: "Who removes the dead ends up paying as with the curse of Tutankhamen"
    Last edited by mishkin; October 27, 2019 at 03:43 AM.

  15. #95

    Default Re: Franco's Mausoleum upsets Spain, again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timoleon of Korinthos View Post
    So does the definition of crime. Yes, a very large number...like three...maybe even...ten? Because a very large number of right-wing officers sided with communists, anarchists, Basque separatists and their sympathizers in the war, haha!
    I think their motivation was to honour the allegiance they had sworn to the Second Republic and the Spanish people. I was under the impression that oath-keeping, loyalty and discipline were values that were greatly appreciated by the conservatives, but perhaps I am a bit too old-fashioned and naive, in an increasingly cynical and polarised world. Your reference to the Basques is very appropriate, as they were headed by a center-right nationalist party, but their fondness of Catholicism didn't save them from the atrocities committed by the rebels. In fact, Franco and co. being busy in 1937 mainly slaughtering the Iberian communities with a global reputation of being exceptionally pious and religious, by essentially deploying Muslim Moroccan auxiliaries, was a constant source of embarrassment. Anyway, as I said, the political affiliation of the coup's victims are completely irrelevant, in what concerns the labeling other actions as crimes against humanity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Timoleon of Korinthos View Post
    Well, let me explain it to you:
    Franco's rule was a financial disaster for Spain. The country recovered its '30s levels only in the end of the '50s and the subsequent progress was hampered by the corrupt and incompetent bureaucracy of the dictatorial regime, while the state remained an international pariah. Even if Franco should be credited with alleged prosperity, justifying the deaths of hundreds of thousands, by equating them with his supposed economic achievements seems rather edgy and immoral. As for your claim that Popular Front was an avowed enemy of parliamentary democracy, you need to cite a reliable article to support your claim. Popular Fronts were dominated by social-democratic parties, who were determined to maintain the status-quo. The French Third Republic managed to survive, while their Spanish administration officials stubbornly refused to arm indignant workers to defend themselves from the arriving Nationalists, fearing that the Communists will overthrow the government. The inevitable consequence was rapid victories for the junta and the summary execution of governors, mayors and workers alike.
    Quote Originally Posted by Timoleon of Korinthos View Post
    Secondly and more importantly, Spain is not a form of government but a nation, whose mode of political organization has underwent various transformations throughout the course of its history. Therefore, belittling the memory of one of the nation's great historical figures, which is what "transferring his body to a less monumental place" amounts to, because he was not bound by republican principles or the values of liberal humanism is as stupid as besmirching Cortez and Alvarado, because they did not respect the human rights of the Aztecs and the Tlaxcalans, and it is of course motivated by an undying sense of political butt-hurt over the defeat of the proponents' ideological and/or biological forefathers' in the Civil War, which is what really makes this move pathetic.
    From my perspective, the butt-hurt in this affair comes from the opposite direction, from far-right extremists, who refused to acknowledge that their was a bloodthirsty tyrant and that his military rule has collapsed long ago, while its influence is constantly eroding. Instead of admitting that their object of admiration was a ruthless authoritarian and that he and his extravagant mausoleum are now widely considered as absurd, ridiculous and reprehensible, they continue to insist on worshiping and white-washing an officer, who violated the most essential of the Spanish people's human rights. Finally, recognizing your history's darkest pages and adjusting your view on figures, like Pizarro, according to modern ethics is a sign of maturity and cleverness. On the contrary, being deadly afraid of criticism and objective evaluation of your faults reveals childishness and a rather detrimental lack of self-confidence. At least, that's what the fundamental principles of psychology teaches us. Chauvinist movements have always invested on these nefarious sentiments, which explains Vox' and other fascist groups' hysterical reaction to Franco's unboxing.

  16. #96

    Default Re: Franco's Mausoleum upsets Spain, again.

    "The title should be Franco Mausoleum upsets leftist extremists, while the rest of country is more concerned with leftist extremists then with Franco"
    It seems to be a common thing among jihadists and the left to attack... historical artifacts or places of burial. I also recall it was a common thing for "republican" forces to exhume remains of nuns and priests during civil war (when Franco saved Spain from these stalinists).
    On the other hand this will probably rally more votes to VOX party.

  17. #97
    Praeses
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    8,355

    Default Re: Franco's Mausoleum upsets Spain, again.

    "Corpse who was buried among war victims despite not meeting the qualifications is exhumed". Who could object to a squatter being evicted?

    I mean the guy came to Spain illegally from Africa, and when he got there he led a lot of young men on a campaign of violence murder and rape. Is the Right condoning that?

    Spanish politics has a deep vicious streak going back to the tribal conflicts of Roman Iberia (and most likely beyond), no wonder Catalonia wants to detach itself from this bloodstained place and adhere more closely to umm...the Franco-German world I guess.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  18. #98

    Default Re: Franco's Mausoleum upsets Spain, again.

    While leftist and jihadists seem to have a war on mausoleums and ruins in general, normal people seem to have a consensus that its best to leave things like places of rest as they are.

  19. #99
    saxdude's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    House of Erotic Maneuvering
    Posts
    10,420

    Default Re: Franco's Mausoleum upsets Spain, again.

    ^ Lol, sure buddy.

  20. #100
    Cookiegod's Avatar CIVUS DIVUS EX CLIBANO
    Citizen

    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    In Derc's schizophrenic mind
    Posts
    4,452

    Default Re: Franco's Mausoleum upsets Spain, again.

    Those of you who obviously idealise the Spanish republic should read Hemingway's For Whom The Bell Tolls. And spare me this left vs right & freedom fighters crap. That's not how reality works. Both sides were very willing to commit horrible, horrible crimes.

    And yeah this destroy the past through memorials and graves (?!) doesn't work for me. Obviously totalitarians of any political movement find it swell to erase anything nonconforming. Proponents of an open pluralist society reserve their strength to educate.

    EDIT: Btw. this digging up graves is an old classic apparently.
    Heck they can't solve any of the real problems Spain is dealing with, but at least they can deepen the divide.
    Last edited by Lifthrasir; October 29, 2019 at 03:21 AM. Reason: Pics removed as obscene content

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    From Socrates over Jesus to me it has always been the lot of any true visionary to be rejected by the reactionary bourgeoisie
    Qualis noncives pereo! #justiceforcookie #egalitéfraternitécookié #CLM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •