Franco's Mausoleum upsets Spain, again.

[Heathen Hammer]

Umm. If that's [It is a Catholic basilica to commemorate and bury those that died in Spanish civil war.] so why is Fraco buried there?

Because he won that war and ruled country for a long period of time.

I'm sure the guys in US prison working a few cents an hour would take that deal if they were not in prison?

On balance I think Spain is stuck with the hideous relic. But Franco should go the current state owes him no particular honer amidst the dead soldiers. When Spain buries Juan Negrín next to Fraco I'll call fair. Fraco was despot he at minimum and should be removed. He did not keep Spain out of WW2, only Hitler's unwillingness to sort out all the conflicting demands of Spain, Italy and Vichy did and his hard for a two front war. Franco was hot to join that's a man who does to be there. Or maybe he dose alone with that grotesque monument after everyone else is interned someplace else.

But than again I think is was a grave mistake to allow a confederate memorial at Arlington.

Ton be fair, that was a better deal then what people in US prisons get. It is not a hideous relic - it is just history. Franco actually did keep Spain out of WW2. Ironically, if commies won the civil war there, Germany would have steamrolled them in 1940 and obviously would make short work out of British to the South, "locking" the Western Mediterranean, giving Axis powers heavier strategic advantage.
You just seem to express same kind of sentiment that is generally used for barbaric destruction of historical sites. Its a good thing that people who share such opinions are a fringe minority.

[Kyriakos]

I don't think that the axis had the power to effectively keep Spain under control. In the real timeline they didn't have to bother with it, and still managed to get wrecked. I also am not seeing how it would matter re the med; Britain mostly used airplanes there anyway (which sunk most of the italian fleet, so once again they didn't face any troubles).

[Heathen Hammer]

I don't think that the axis had the power to effectively keep Spain under control. In the real timeline they didn't have to bother with it, and still managed to get wrecked. I also am not seeing how it would matter re the med; Britain mostly used airplanes there anyway (which sunk most of the italian fleet, so once again they didn't face any troubles).

Locking the strait could play a detrimental role for Allied capabilities in the region. Technically, if it wasn't for Franco, Allies could have lost or war would have ended much differently. Having said that, the above claim made by conon that Franco wanted to join WW2 is hilariously opposite of what happened in reality.

[Kyriakos]

Locking the strait could play a detrimental role for Allied capabilities in the region. Technically, if it wasn't for Franco, Allies could have lost or war would have ended much differently. Having said that, the above claim made by conon that Franco wanted to join WW2 is hilariously opposite of what happened in reality.

Maybe in the short-term it would have a notable effect. But Britain could bring ships from the other way too (Suez). They also used it in that way during WW2. Now if this was an entirely different timeline, where axis managed to get hold of Suez (which they weren't close to IRL), it would be a bigger problem.

[mishkin]

Spain was neutral in the II world war only nominally. Airports and ports were used by the German army, they exploited tungsten mines here, and I am very surprised that you are forgetting the blue division (troops sent by the Francoist government to fight under orders of Hitler, present especially in Ukraine if I'm not mistaken) . You also seem to forget that Spain, just out of an atrocious civil war (three years), did not have much more to offer its natural allies.

Are you debating if the figure of franco was positive for Spain?

[conon394]

Because he won that war and ruled country for a long period of time.

Again - I suppose if you like dictators. Put Juan Negrín there and I will buy there is some legitimacy to Fraco there (and also bury every president there). But Franco was not one of the fallen.

[mishkin]

It is also a curious fact, about the neutrality of that construction, that no president of democracy (40 years) has ever visited that place.

[Ludicus]

Should Spain deal in a determined way with its fascist past or tolerate the relics of the dictatorship for the sake of preserving social cohesion?

If you/we are worried about the Spanish social cohesion, it means that the fascist legacy is alive and well.

Franco foundation calls for new 'uprising' in Spain - Catalan News
With fascist salutes, defenders of Spanish dictator Franco protest plan

Yet, polls suggest that most people in Spain are in favor of removing Franco’s remains from the Valley of the Fallen: 56%. You know perfectly what my answer will be - finally, a sacred cow will be touched, by the hand of Pedro Sanchez. The PSOE is finally changing the things.

As I said before, on 17 June, good news are good news, ​

El PSOE prepara la salida de Franco del Valle de los Caídos
El Món | El PSOE vol illegalitzar la Fundación Francisco Franco

The PSOE seeks the Franco Foundation to be banned. It should be known that those who donate money to Foundation are permitted to deduct the value of those donations for tax purposes.
More,
Spain to outlaw groups honoring dictator Francisco Franco
Spain launches truth commission to probe Franco-era crimes

All good news.
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Sanchez said:"the decision is taken", to transfer the remains of the dictator from his current burial site at the Valley of the Fallen, and have him reinterred elsewhere Spanish PM: “The decision is taken. We will soon exhume Franco's

That being said, the monument will remain untouched.
This is a monument to all those killed in the conflict, but in fact only two graves are marked: Franco's and that of José Antonio Primo de Rivera, the founder of the Falangist party. In my opinion, for the sake of coherence, Primo de Rivera remains should also be removed.

[sumskilz]

More,
Spain to outlaw groups honoring dictator Francisco Franco

Hmm...

What an odd behavior:



Also, is that woman really wearing a knitted poncho? I mean, I guess I sort of get the other picture with all the guys wearing fruity uniforms. Although I was under the impression that the one upside of being a fascist was wearing a stylish uniform. These guys apparently didn't get the memo.

[swabian]

Hmm...

What an odd behavior:



Also, is that woman really wearing a knitted poncho? I mean, I guess I sort of get the other picture with all the guys wearing fruity uniforms. Although I was under the impression that the one upside of being a fascist was wearing a stylish uniform. These guys apparently didn't get the memo.

Where is that picture from?

[Aexodus]

Spain to outlaw groups honoring dictator Francisco Franco

If there was one thing you could do to push Spanish fascism more radically rightist...

[Ludicus]

Hmm...
What an odd behavior:

Hmm, what? what bothers you? what are you trying to say, exactly? with or without ponchos, with or without military uniforms, they are all fascists.
Fascism doesn't bother you? aren't you a Jew? General Franco gave list of Spanish Jews to Nazis and you should read about the high degree of Fascist complicity with Nazi Germany and also the widespread confiscation of Jewish property by fascist Italians during the German occupation.

The relevant part is,
Justice Minister Dolores Delgado,

It is unacceptable that Spain continues to be second in the world after Cambodia in terms of the number of disappeared people

swabian

Where is that picture from?

Instead of asking "where is that picture from", why haven't you followed the link? it says, "Franco supporters still come to the Valley of the Fallen to honor Franco. Above, they make the fascist salute outside the mausoleum".

[swabian]

swabian

Instead of asking "where is that picture from", why haven't you followed the link? it says, "Franco supporters still come to the Valley of the Fallen to honor Franco. Above, they make the fascist salute outside the mausoleum".

My problem is that it's obvious and unfunny fake. Call me a humorless German, but i find it rather tasteless. I'm not really complaining, i just want to know where it is from, so that i can project my impotent rage in the right direction. [I consider this to even out the retarded antisemitic and generally racist jokes we used to make more than 25 years ago; yes I am this old]

[Ludicus]

If there was one thing you could do to push Spanish fascism more radically rightist...

Open you heart and complete the sentence. Everyone (even Nazis) are allowed to post here. Free speech is allowed, you know that.

it's obvious and unfunny fake.

Ah, "obvious and unfunny fake". Hey Sherlock, explain your tortuous reasoning.

[swabian]

Ah, "obvious and unfunny fake". Hey Sherlock, explain your tortuous reasoning.

I'm not on a criminal investigation, but you seem to be on one. Not that i cared, but you seem to project that. What i'm doing is ranting and otherwise alien to you. Let's just leave it there.

[sumskilz]

Where is that picture from?

Well the linked website got it from Getty Images, which is a stock photo company, for all those occasions when you really need an image of totally innocuous looking people doing fascist salutes, but just don't happen to have one on hand.

The original is credited to some Faget from Agence France Presse. If it is legit, it's totally surreal.

There are similar images circulating that are certainly less incongruous:

If there was one thing you could do to push Spanish fascism more radically rightist...

As an American, I do find the idea of fighting authoritarianism with authoritarian measures to be a little off, but no more so than knitted poncho wearing fascists. Or is it crochet? Perhaps there's a far right poster better acquainted with needlepoint who could fill us in?

Hmm, what? what bothers you? what are you trying to say, exactly? with or without ponchos, with or without military uniforms, they are all fascists.
Fascism doesn't bother you? aren't you a Jew? General Franco gave list of Spanish Jews to Nazis and you should read about the high degree of Fascist complicity with Nazi Germany and also the widespread confiscation of Jewish property by fascist Italians during the German occupation.

What would make you think I'm unfamiliar with any of that? If you don't really understand a post, it's probably best to hold off on making bizarre assumptions.

[Sir Adrian]

I don't think the bodies should be moved. As it is the mausoleum is a monument to the Civil War, the cancerous ideologies that caused and the horror that followed it. In fact I would go one step further and bury Franco's victims there, if possible. If they are moved it will remain a monument to the Civil War, and once the Civil War is forgotten (and it will be) then it will be just a monument.

Simply put, having one of the worst dictators in Spanish history buried there gives it a greater staying power and keeps it in people's minds.

So? Culture is much more than buildings

True, but buildings are very often the only legacy of the culture that built them.

Hmm...
Also, is that woman really wearing a knitted poncho? I mean, I guess I sort of get the other picture with all the guys wearing fruity uniforms. Although I was under the impression that the one upside of being a fascist was wearing a stylish uniform. These guys apparently didn't get the memo.

Spain is coming out of a horrible recession and Hugo Boss isn't exactly cheap.

[Ludicus]

Well the linked website got it from Getty Images, which is a stock photo company, for all those occasions when you really need an image of totally innocuous looking people doing fascist salutes, but just don't happen to have one on hand

Oh come on, there are a lot of images on hand of "innocuous people doing fascist salutes"











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If you don't really understand a post

I understand you very well.

[Infidel144]

I understand you very well.

Well then, how about explaining what it is you "understand very well" about sumskilz?

[Ludicus]

Well then, how about explaining what it is you "understand very well" about sumskilz?

I'm not talking with you - and sumskilz doesn't need your help.
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Btw, an amazing an amazing collection of - Francisco Franco Stock Photos and Pictures | Getty Images