Franco's Mausoleum upsets Spain, again.

[Vanoi]

Buildings are significant part of it, and historically speaking in many cases - the only part that remains

Some examples would be great.

Hence why it is very important to preserve old buildings and any deliberate attempt at destroying old structures should be equated to crime against humanity, which it really is.

This monument isn't that old at all though and it was built by slave labor of which many were buried at the monument.

[Heathen Hammer]

Some examples would be great.

Examples of what? Plenty of ancient civilization left us with buildings and other artifacts.

This monument isn't that old at all though and it was built by slave labor of which many were buried at the monument.

Which bestows it with historical value, just like Auschwitz or Tower of London. Both sites of great atrocities, but only a moron would suggest to destroy them.

[95thrifleman]

The irony of people desroying buildings in the name of anti-fascism. What's next, the burning of fascist books?

[Love Mountain]

Sain is one of the few countries who managed to transition peacefully from an authoritarian regime into a democratic Government. I would certainly not be opposed to “correction” of history in signs, memorials, and textbooks. In short, I think I wholeheartedly agree with you here Abdul. Great post, as always. We cannot forget the crimes of oppressors.

[95thrifleman]

Sain is one of the few countries who managed to transition peacefully from an authoritarian regime into a democratic Government. I would certainly not be opposed to “correction” of history in signs, memorials, and textbooks. In short, I think I wholeheartedly agree with you here Abdul. Great post, as always. We cannot forget the crimes of oppressors.

"correction" I worry about these terms. David Irving once described his holocaust denial as "correcting" history, it works for both sides. I somehow doubt Abdul, based on his clearly partisan wording, has any real interest in a clinical, unbiased look at Franco's spain. I rather suspect he'll settle for no less than complete condemnation of all things fascist and a rather skewed interpretation of the civil war popular these days.

[Vanoi]

Examples of what? Plenty of ancient civilization left us with buildings and other artifacts.

None of those cultures are around anymore and those are ancient buildings. Franco's monument is no where comparable.

Which bestows it with historical value, just like Auschwitz or Tower of London. Both sites of great atrocities, but only a moron would suggest to destroy them.

Auschwitz was left as a reminder not a monument and the Tower of London is how many hundreds of years old?

The Franco monument is not old and is was built by slave labor. Relatives of those who died are likely still alive and are not even able to recover their loved ones bodies.

[mishkin]

The irony of people desroying buildings in the name of anti-fascism. What's next, the burning of fascist books?

The same anti-fascism for which many Spaniards, Europeans and Americans gave their lives in this country.

[Copperknickers II]

It seems that these days the Left is only interested in tearing down monuments not building better societies.

In any other European country I'd agree with you. Unfortunately idolisation of Fascism is alive and well in Spain and it's not going anywhere. The monument is an important part of Spanish history. And its blowing up into smithereens will also be an important part of Spanish history. The ruins can be left, as the ruins of the Colosseum and Parthenon are left, as reminders of the past. Right now the Valle de los Caidos seems to be more a talisman for the present Spanish authorities than it is a relic from the past.

[95thrifleman]

None of those cultures are around anymore and those are ancient buildings. Franco's monument is no where comparable.


Auschwitz was left as a reminder not a monument and the Tower of London is how many hundreds of years old?

The Franco monument is not old and is was built by slave labor. Relatives of those who died are likely still alive and are not even able to recover their loved ones bodies.

Do you even read your own words? The desperation to justify idealogical vandalism.

[Vanoi]

Coming from the guy saying destroying buildings will leave nothing for future generations. You must have a real future ahead if it's buildings that are the key.

[Heathen Hammer]

None of those cultures are around anymore and those are ancient buildings. Franco's monument is no where comparable.

It is a reminder to crucial historical event.

Auschwitz was left as a reminder not a monument and the Tower of London is how many hundreds of years old?

The Franco monument is not old and is was built by slave labor. Relatives of those who died are likely still alive and are not even able to recover their loved ones bodies.

The charge that the monument site was "like a Nazi concentration camp" refers to the use of convicts, including Spanish Republican Army war prisoners, trading their labour for a reduction in time served. Although Spanish law at the time prohibited forced labour, it did provide for convicts to choose voluntary work on the basis of redeeming two days of conviction for each day worked. This law was in force until 1995. This benefit was increased to six days when labour was carried out at the basilica with a salary of 7 pesetas per day, a regular worker's salary for that time, with the possibility of the family of the convict benefiting from the housing and Catholic children's schools built in the valley for the other workers. Only convicts with a record of good behaviour would qualify for this redemption scheme, as the works site was considered to be a low security environment.

Not exactly slave labor, but I'll take the bait.
Plenty of things were built by slave labor. It is also a monument to victims of Red Terror. I get that people who want to see the monument gone believe that victims of red Terror "had it coming", but still.

The same anti-fascism for which many Spaniards, Europeans and Americans gave their lives in this country.

The communists in civil war were hardly any better then Franco's side.

[Vanoi]

It is a reminder to crucial historical event.


Not exactly slave labor, but I'll take the bait.
Plenty of things were built by slave labor. It is also a monument to victims of Red Terror. I get that people who want to see the monument gone believe that victims of red Terror "had it coming", but still.

I just said in a post to you Auschwitz was left as a reminder.

A monument to the victims of the Red Terror can be re-built with something to also commemorate the many people who lost their lives in slave labor building the monument.

Regardless or not if it's a monument to the Red Terror it was built with slave labor. The monument us a disgrace to the many people who were forced to build it and died there.

[95thrifleman]

Coming from the guy saying destroying buildings will leave nothing for future generations. You must have a real future ahead if it's buildings that are the key.

I can understand that viewpoint coming from an American, as you have no real history to speak of.

As an Englishman, our culture and history is underpinned by our architecture and monuments. From examples of tyrany and bloodshed such as the Tower of London to works of religious art such as stone henge and st pauls cathredral. Bastions of science and discover such as the spires of Oxfrod or the greenwich observatory.
To the simple, moving monuments erected to the dead of WW1 to be found in every British town and village.

I can only pity an existence that does not see worth in these monuments to a nation's culture and legacy to future generations.

[Vanoi]

I can understand that viewpoint coming from an American, as you have no real history to speak of.

Plenty of history. Just don't need buildings to tell it. You see in America we have these things called books. Idk have those in England but that's what us Americans use.

As an Englishman, our culture and history is underpinned by our architecture and monuments. From examples of tyrany and bloodshed such as the Tower of London to works of religious art such as stone henge and st pauls cathredral. Bastions of science and discover such as the spires of Oxfrod or the greenwich observatory.
To the simple, moving monuments erected to the dead of WW1 to be found in every British town and village.

I can only pity an existence that does not see worth in these monuments to a nation's culture and legacy to future generations.

Some un-fair comparisons there. I pity those who need buildings to keep their nation's legacy and culture. Must be a place to live.

[Heathen Hammer]

I just said in a post to you Auschwitz was left as a reminder.

A monument to the victims of the Red Terror can be re-built with something to also commemorate the many people who lost their lives in slave labor building the monument.

Regardless or not if it's a monument to the Red Terror it was built with slave labor. The monument us a disgrace to the many people who were forced to build it and died there.

It wasn't exactly slave labor - prisoners volunteered for it, received reduced sentences and were paid regular wages for it.

[Vanoi]

It wasn't exactly slave labor - prisoners volunteered for it, received reduced sentences and were paid regular wages for it.

https://www.thelocal.es/20180424/spa...a-monument/amp

The dictator dedicated the site to "all the fallen" of the civil war, but because the monument was built in part by the forced labour of political prisoners, many who died during the works, the site has long been a rallying
point for the far right in Spain.

Not according to this. Forced labor in which people died. My point stands.

[caratacus]

and caratacus. That there are more important things to do does not mean that you can not do something as simple as this, much less means that doing this is wrong. By the way, those who are giving relevance to this are the Francoists and their heirs, not the current government. (and if someone is concerned that the government does not give absolute priority (for some reason) to the problem with Catalonia, the "residual" Francoism is one of the reasons that the Catalan pro-independence movement wield).

Do I like this monument? not especially, it is a monument to the ego of a dictator. Is it relevant to modern Spain? no! It represents however a division that hurt Spain deeply, a division that led to a very bloody civil war, the echos of which continue to resonate in Spanish politics.

Because of this, the monument should not become used as a political tool, which is precisely what this Socialist government is doing here. The future of the monument must be tackled with care and tact, or risk reawakening the real divisions that existed in Spanish society. It is a diversion from the urgent issues of today that the Spanish people are faced with, and for which their government seemingly is devoid of solutions, except settling old historical scores.

[Heathen Hammer]

https://www.thelocal.es/20180424/spa...a-monument/amp



Not according to this. Forced labor in which people died. My point stands.

Again, prisoners were used, but they would volunteer for that and get paid normal wages for their labor. They would be allowed to volunteer only with a record of good behavior. It does not specify whether prisoners were "political" or just "regular" criminals either. So no, your point does not stand. The whole thing is just socialist politicians being salty about monument to victims of Red Terror (committed by their ideological predecessors in 1930s) even existing.

[Abdülmecid I]

Thanks for the notification, mishkin, I will add it to the opening post.

No, the strawman is a Socialist government swept to office on the back of a huge political scandal which has rocked the Country, making this one of the first things on their agenda. The Left are redundant of any progressive thinking these day and this is a prime example. They choose to ignore all the issues affecting Spain today, the economy, corruption, immigration, Catalonia and instead focus on a past in which they themselves are seen as the sole victims and heroes. It is the failings of democracy that create extremism not monuments. This particular monument and complex, should certainly be used for a purpose that unites people and enjoy this wonderful setting, something entirely apolitical. But an idea of removing skeletons and turning it into some kind of symbol to keep painful memories alive, of a war that tor Spain apart and contributed to the start of a wider global war, isn't one of them. save that for a museum. If that is all this Socialist government has to offer the Spanish people at this difficult time, then the Country's problems will never be solved in the near future.

What huge political scandal? In case you didn't read mishkin's previous comment, the article you copy-pasted (presumably without actually reading it) after having googled "Spanish government corruption" was referring to the Popular Party and not to the Socialists you seem rather afraid of. Coincidentally, the Popular Party are the chaps who refused even the possibility of temporarily disturbing Franco's from their eternal piece. Anyway, the rest of your post is as disappointing as the first one, because you ignore all my points and instead resort to vague preaching without any tangible substance. Let me ask again, hoping that this time you will succeed in addressing my arguments. Doesn't removing the bodies of a dictator and a fascist party leader contribute to make the complex apolitical? How does the presence of Francisco and José Antonio render the Valley of the Fallen a neutral monument? Why can't the monument serve simultaneously as a place of remembering dead Republican soldiers and as a museum that soberly and objectively examines the civil war and the subsequent totalitarian regime? What you suggest is treating the Spanish public like immature children: ''Back in the old times, people were angry and fought with each other and many suffered, so now please love each other kids and , for the Holy Cross' sake, don't ask uncomfortable questions about our former prime-ministers!". That's cute and all that, but it's neither history nor respectful to the past and present generations of Spaniards.

Yes and it's just some silly ranting. You can't hide history by demolishing it. You can argue we'd best bulldoze Auschwitz and hide it because thousands died to build it or demolish the great wall of china because the workers who built it where buried under it.

I doubt you read it, because neither I nor the Stalinist government of Madrid has proposed to demolish it. Apparently, the basilica and the abbey are a typical and rare example of neo-Herrerian architectural style (summarily put, Franco and co. sloppily trying to imitate the palaces and churches of Philip II), so I'm all for leaving it unscathed, as a gigantic reminder of the horrors of the coup, the civil war and the Francoist autocracy. What's wrong with that? As a general observation (not directed to rifleman), political correctness has gone extreme and we should stop castrating our history, in order to accommodate to the sensitive prejudices of some far-right snowflakes, completely incapable of recognizing the fact that reality does not confirm their stereotypes and fantasies. History can be controversial and embarrassing, but that doesn't mean we should distort it for the benefit of public order and social cohesion.

There is a disturbing trend in the left to destroy history they do not like in the same way ISIS and the Taliban liked to do. I read the post and I think, quite frankly, the whole idea is absurd and stupid.
I repeat, you can not hide history, you can only teach it and try not to repeat it.

What idea, exactly? What I propose can be accurately summarized with your last sentence. The memorial and museum to the innocent victims (a necessary adjective that excludes scoundrels responsible for the massacre, like José Antonio Primo de Rivera, Joaquín Fanjul, Manuel Goded, Emilio Mola and etc.) of the war and of the Francoist authorities will serve exactly this purpose. It will not hide Spain's darkest moments of history under the carpet and it will teach the visitors not to allow the army, the fascists and the ultraconservatives to usurp the political power of the country, to the detriment of democracy, prosperity and human rights. Frankly, I cannot find any nobler cause than that, but, on the other hand, maybe I'm the weird guy daring to condemn fascism and coups, in an age where the galloping revisionism will have us believe that Franco and co., as well as his allies, from Hitler, Salazar and Mussolini to the British turning a blind eye on public violations of diplomatic treaties, were morally justified to slaughter everyone on their path to domination.

[Vanoi]

@HH


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valle_de_los_Caídos

Nope.

It is claimed that by 1943, the number of prisoners who were working at the site reached close to six hundred.[11] It is also claimed that up to 20,000 prisoners were used for the overall construction of the monument and that forced labour took place.[12]