Franco's Mausoleum upsets Spain, again.

[Heathen Hammer]

There's a lot of revisionism, where Republican forces are presented as some kind of force of liberal democracy. In reality all non-stalinist factions were quickly suppressed and de-facto did not exist. Spanish Civil War was between nationalist forces and stalinists, who would undoubtedly commit massive war crimes and famines, had they not been stopped by nationalists.

[mishkin]

Happy to be corrected but my impression is the Soviets backed communist elements in Spain to murder and subvert their way into control of the Republican forces and alienated a lot of Republicans and foreign volunteers: in a way they made Phalangist predictions come true. France and the UK were staying out in any case, but Soviet involvement removed any chance of that policy changing.

Soviet policy at this stage was Stalin's policy and he was an utterly evil bastard who makes the Caudillo look like a choir boy. His brutal cynicism is evident throughout his career and his forces were definitely not in Spain for the benefit of the legitimate government. By contributing to the Civil war brutality and misery he neutralised Spain as a possible member of a putative anti-Comintern crusade, so in many ways it was mission accomplished.

Speculations aside, the fact is that the only country that supported the democratically elected government and helped fight fascism in spain was the Soviet Union. Infinite gratitude to those who came (a gratitude that does not excuse all the horrors of the Soviet regime at all) and to the european an american brigades who came to fight here, despite the prohibition of their neutral (god knows why) countries. If we want to go beyond the facts, we can talk about how the Soviet regime presented itself as a leader in the fight against fascism and the rest of the international community as garbage.

[Cyclops]

Speculations aside, the fact is that the only country that supported the democratically elected government and helped fight fascism in spain was the Soviet Union. Infinite gratitude to those who came (a gratitude that does not excuse all the horrors of the Soviet regime at all) and to the european an american brigades who came to fight here, despite the prohibition of their neutral (god knows why) countries. If we want to go beyond the facts, we can talk about how the Soviet regime presented itself as a leader in the fight against fascism and the rest of the international community as garbage.

Context is everything. At the time the world was watching the Soviet Union with horror as they exterminated or exported their ruling class and apparently did away with capitalism. Despite the West backing warlords and actively sabotaging the economy the Soviets seemed to be not just surviving but thriving.

The other shadow was World War One, a demographic, political and military disaster for all involved except the US who profited mightily and then GTFO. People were bending over backwards to avoid another war, and after the blind optimism of 1914 ha led to such a catastrophe people erred on the side of dismal pessimism.

There was a real fear that (with or without another World War) a Red Tide would sweep Europe and slaughter the current ruling class from the Kings and Queens down to the Bourgeoisie. Anyone who said they would fight that tide had carte blanche, which is why Hitler's illegal regime was not just tolerated but actively funded.

There was a general agreement for the Powers to stay out of Spain when the rebellion kicked off, but when Italy and Germany flouted it there were no consequences because they did not want another war. We can say "oh if they attacked Hitler in 1933 or 1936 he would have been a pushover" but there was no appetite in any country for that sort of adventurism and he had not yet committed his most awful atrocities.

In the European context the overthrow of the lawful government in Spain was just another slice of salami as the Right trashed European civilisation under the guise of saving it from communism. These psychos then delivered half of Europe to Stalin with their suicidal war.

Soviet help was definitely a poisoned chalice my friend, Stalin did not mean to help a centrist moderate government survive. I wish the UK and France had the courage to stomp the Nazis and Fascists in Spain but everyone was hoping Hitler would do their dirty work in Russia so he was allowed to run wild.

[mishkin]

so summarizing Western democracies were more concerned that the Soviet Union extended its tentacles in Spain than the imminent establishment of another fascist dictatorship in europe. If I understood correctly, it still sounds like crap, although it is consistent with the usual subsequent behavior of supporting any type of dictatorship rather than a socialist, "communist" or liberal regime.

[Ludicus]

Context is everything... I wish the UK and France had the courage to stomp the Nazis and Fascists in Spain but everyone was hoping Hitler would do their dirty work in Russia so he was allowed to run wild.

UK and France. OK, in fact the context is everything. Here is the historical context: In 1935, Leon Blum, concerned by the emergence of Hitler, formed the Populist Front in France, which included the Socialist and the Communist Party. In May 1936 The French Populist Front won a total of 376 seats in the parliamentary elections, and Blum, a leftist, socialist Jew, become prime minister of France. (first Jew to become Premier France)
In July 1936, Giral, prime minister of the Spanish Popular Front, "brother" of the French leftist Party (ideological similar,even the name was the same- Popular Front), request aid against Franco's insurrection.
Telegram to Blum:

Are surprised by dangerous military uprising. Request you to come to immediate agreement with us for the supply of arms and aircraft. Fraternally, Giral.

There was no reason why Blum should not agree, both parties were product of leftist Popular coalitions. Obviously, Blum agreed to send military aid.
So what happened then? what happened then, I repeat?
The right wing UK cabinet ( Eden, Baldwin and others) pressed Blum to not intervene (1), and France, under the pressure from the right wing british Government, capitulated to the UK demands: Blum, the prime minister of France, resigned on 22 June.
So what happened then?
In 1938 Blum returned to power as prime minister, and opened the frontier with Spain to allow military aid to enter in Spain.
Once more, Blum, democratically elected, come under pressure from right wing politicians and right wing press, and his government fell again.
When Hitler invaded France, Petain, the French traitor, ordered his arrest, and handed him over to the nazis.
For some reason (I mean, right's sempiternal fascination with Adolf and nazis) in 1938 Hitler was the man of the year for the TIME Magazine.



White Rose History, Volume I [Academic Version]: Coming Together ...

If Francisco Franco had won the Spanish Civil War after his great spring drive, he might well have been Man-of-the-Year timber

------
In a real context, I regret to say,it still happens today ,
The Weaponization of National Belonging, from Nazi Germany to Trump
Hail Trump: White nationalists mark Trump win with Nazi salute - BBC ...

(1) Edit- I forgot to add,
The historian of Civil War put it directly:: "Had it not been for Britain, France and probably the USA would have permitted the Republic to buy arms freely" H. Thomas, The Spanish Civil War, 768.

[Abdülmecid I]

More good news about the Valley of the Fallen. Following the transfer of the dictator's body from the state-owned mausoleum to a more humble cemetery, the current center-leftist coalition government is planning to further cleanse the monument from its ideological affiliation with Franco's junta. In summary, according to the proposed bill, the Valley of the Fallen will now be dedicated exclusively to the victims (from both sides) of the Civil War. The Benedictine abbey might be removed, in the context of secularisation, while the remains of José Antonio Primo de Rivera, now lying next to the altar, will be either moved together with the rest of the buried bodies or, if the family so requests, will be buried in a common cemetery, similar to Franco's body. José Antonio Primo de Rivera was the son of the dictator Miguel Primo de Rivera and also the founder of Falange, Spain's most prominent fascist group, which contributed to the coup of 1936 and which then was transformed into Franco's official party, so the decision seems more than just.

In addition to that, the government is also planning to finance a huge initiative of identifying, through DNA tests, thousands of skeletons who are buried in unmarked graves, during the course of the civil war and which will then be moved to the Valley of the Fallen. Finally, regarding some extra measures, Madrid is also intending to reform the content of history classes in the primary and secondary education system, which, until this day, present, in a dishonestly sanitised manner, both combatants in equal terms, while consistently refraining from condemning the dissolution of the Spanish democracy by Franco and his fellow conspirators. Last but not least, the Spanish administration may even extend the citizenship eligibility of the descendants of the International Brigades members. The Brigades were foreign volunteers, whose regiments joined the Republican Army, in order to protect the democratically-elected government from the threat posed by Spanish Nationalists and their allies, Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany.

Overall, I'm qutie satisfied with the content of reform. My only objections is that it still treats the fighters of the Nationalists on equal terms, but I understand why such progress is so slow and gradual. The far-right (the moderate right-wing Popular Party accused the government of distraction, but avoided to comment on the merits of the legislation) is crying even when the authorities disassociate themselves from the totalitarian regime's heritage, so I can imagine how severely they will be triggered, if they are explicitly told that the Nationalists were the baddies in the conflict, because overthrowing a democracy and installing a military junta on its place is nowadays considered morally dubious. Hopefully, this is just the beginning of the trend and de-francoisation is completed in the foreseeable future, especially as the influence of the remaining Francoist officials has been steadily declining.

[Heathen Hammer]

So the "good news" is that they will now teach that Stalinists were the good guys and that now professional criminals from former USSR get a shot at Spanish citizenship as long as they can fake documents that prove that their grandfather was one of the commies who helped Stalin de-facto invade Spain.
Its funny how left is pretty much screeching at graves of people that died generations ago. Ironically these leftist politicians wouldn't even exist today if their Stalinist heroes had their way. I guess ignorance of historical facts and leftist ideology go hand in hand.

[Abdülmecid I]

The International Brigades were not from the Soviet Union. Its membership came from such criminal pits, as Britain, France, America, Italy and Germany. Bit of a failed, trolling attempt here, better luck next time.

About who is the good guy and who is the bad, I used to believe, as an old school conservative, that respecting your oath, defending your democratically elected government and resisting against foreign, Nazi and Fascist invaders was viewed in a positive light. What happened, does the far-right now condemn loyalty, oath-keeping and patriotism as nefarious and reprehensible principles.

[Heathen Hammer]

The International Brigades were not from the Soviet Union. Its membership came from such criminal pits, as Britain, France, America, Italy and Germany. Bit of a failed, trolling attempt here, better luck next time.

Not really:

The International Brigades was strongly supported by the Comintern and represented the Soviet Union's commitment to assisting the Spanish Republic (with arms, logistics, military advisers and the NKVD),

So Stalin pretty much bankrolled the communist insurection and provided them with all kinds of assistance, including military advisors. Nice try.
Also I don't think that people that traveled across the world to instaill a communist dictatorship in another country were good people. In fact, civil war was almost over prior to their arrival, which only prolonged war and suffering of Spanish people.
And of course, communists didn't do that for free:

The Soviet Union were the main suppliers of military aid to the Republican Army. This included 1,000 aircraft, 900 tanks, 1,500 artillery pieces, 300 armoured cars, 15,000 machine-guns, 30,000 automatic firearms, 30,000 mortars, 500,000 riles and 30,000 tons of ammunition.
The Soviets expected the Republicans to pay for these military supplies in gold. On the outbreak of the war Spain had the world's fourth largest reserves of gold. During the war approximately $500 million, or two-thirds of Spain's gold reserves, were shipped to the Soviet Union.

About who is the good guy and who is the bad, I used to believe, as an old school conservative, that respecting your oath, defending your democratically elected government and resisting against foreign, Nazi and Fascist invaders was viewed in a positive light. What happened, does the far-right now condemn loyalty, oath-keeping and patriotism as nefarious and reprehensible principles.

Its funny how you are trying to shame people for rising up against oppressive communist government that was backed by one of the biggest mass-murderers in history. Should they apologize for keeping Spain free and preventing communists from starving and massacring quarter of the population?

[mishkin]

So Stalin pretty much bankrolled the communist insurection

say no more

[Heathen Hammer]

say no more

By the time "international brigades" arrived, it was already at that point.

[mishkin]

Ok. What do you mean when you talk about "the communist insurrection"? because here the only insurrection was that of the fascist generals against the existing democratic system.

[Heathen Hammer]

Ok. What do you mean when you talk about "the communist insurrection"? because here the only insurrection was that of the fascist generals against the existing democratic system.

They revolted against a tyrannical government that was oppressing Spanish population, and initial revolt was remarkably non-ideological. I don't really see much difference between that and Prussian officers attempting to overthrow Hitler in 1940s. My point was that communists were already losing the civil war before Stalin's aid in form of "International Brigades" showed up and prolonged it without really changing the result.

[Abdülmecid I]

Not really:

Alright, since support is actually completely irrelevant to your original point about the membership's nationality, I take it as a concession. By the way, just for a historical note, the Republicans defeated the Nationalists at Madrid, when the International Brigades were less than one tenth of the loyalists.

Its funny how you are trying to shame people for rising up against oppressive communist government that was backed by one of the biggest mass-murderers in history. Should they apologize for keeping Spain free and preventing communists from starving and massacring quarter of the population?

Major mistakes here. Soviet support started only after the outbreak of the war and in the 1936 elections, the Communist Party of Spain obtained 17 of the total 473 seats. By the way, please explain to me how the democratically-elected government that ruled for 5 months (which was not communist, so not sure why you keep repeating this lie) was more oppressive than a regime that abolished elections for 40 years and which executed without a trial tens of thousands of civilians, possibly even hundreds.

[mishkin]

They revolted against a tyrannical government that was oppressing Spanish population, and initial revolt was remarkably non-ideological. I don't really see much difference between that and Prussian officers attempting to overthrow Hitler in 1940s. My point was that communists were already losing the civil war before Stalin's aid in form of "International Brigades" showed up and prolonged it without really changing the result.

Dude you are calling "tyrannical government" a democratically elected moderate (not communist at all) government and you are calling undoubtedly fascist military generals saviors of the country. I mean... Bye.

[Love Mountain]

Major mistakes here. Soviet support started only after the outbreak of the war and in the 1936 elections, the Communist Party of Spain obtained 17 of the total 473 seats. By the way, please explain to me how the democratically-elected government that ruled for 5 months (which was not communist, so not sure why you keep repeating this lie) was more oppressive than a regime that abolished elections for 40 years and which executed without a trial tens of thousands of civilians, possibly even hundreds.

Well I don't know Abdul, were they globalists?

[Abdülmecid I]

Well I don't know Abdul, were they globalists?

Worse, cosmopollitans. And their parties had a bunch of alphabet soup names like PSOE, PSE, POUM or whatever. On the other hand, however, the Trump fandom likes them...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Heathen Hammer]

Alright, since support is actually completely irrelevant to your original point about the membership's nationality, I take it as a concession. By the way, just for a historical note, the Republicans defeated the Nationalists at Madrid, when the International Brigades were less than one tenth of the loyalists.

So military advisors don't count? I'm not even talking about the fact that without Stalin's material support and disposable fanatical cannon-fodder from Stalinist parties in North America and Western Europe, they'd have lost much faster.

Major mistakes here. Soviet support started only after the outbreak of the war and in the 1936 elections, the Communist Party of Spain obtained 17 of the total 473 seats. By the way, please explain to me how the democratically-elected government that ruled for 5 months (which was not communist, so not sure why you keep repeating this lie) was more oppressive than a regime that abolished elections for 40 years and which executed without a trial tens of thousands of civilians, possibly even hundreds.

That's actually quite typical MO of communists, for example bolshevicks lost elections to Provisional Government in Russia and chose to simply do a coup, with German and others financial support from abroad. Same thing happened in Spanish civil war, where weak Republican leadership was easy pickings for mr. Dzhugashvili. So the fact that Stalinists took over "republican" government with such ease kinda proves my point: it doesn't matter what Republican government could have been. By middle of the war their side was firmly under Stalin's control and anyone saying that they were the good guys is either ignorant of historical facts or is a Stalinist sympathizer himself.

[Cyclops]

More good news about the Valley of the Fallen. Following the transfer of the dictator's body from the state-owned mausoleum to a more humble cemetery, the current center-leftist coalition government is planning to further cleanse the monument from its ideological affiliation with Franco's junta. In summary, according to the proposed bill, the Valley of the Fallen will now be dedicated exclusively to the victims (from both sides) of the Civil War. The Benedictine abbey might be removed, in the context of secularisation, while the remains of José Antonio Primo de Rivera, now lying next to the altar, will be either moved together with the rest of the buried bodies or, if the family so requests, will be buried in a common cemetery, similar to Franco's body. José Antonio Primo de Rivera was the son of the dictator Miguel Primo de Rivera and also the founder of Falange, Spain's most prominent fascist group, which contributed to the coup of 1936 and which then was transformed into Franco's official party, so the decision seems more than just.

In addition to that, the government is also planning to finance a huge initiative of identifying, through DNA tests, thousands of skeletons who are buried in unmarked graves, during the course of the civil war and which will then be moved to the Valley of the Fallen. Finally, regarding some extra measures, Madrid is also intending to reform the content of history classes in the primary and secondary education system, which, until this day, present, in a dishonestly sanitised manner, both combatants in equal terms, while consistently refraining from condemning the dissolution of the Spanish democracy by Franco and his fellow conspirators. Last but not least, the Spanish administration may even extend the citizenship eligibility of the descendants of the International Brigades members. The Brigades were foreign volunteers, whose regiments joined the Republican Army, in order to protect the democratically-elected government from the threat posed by Spanish Nationalists and their allies, Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany.

Overall, I'm qutie satisfied with the content of reform. My only objections is that it still treats the fighters of the Nationalists on equal terms, but I understand why such progress is so slow and gradual. The far-right (the moderate right-wing Popular Party accused the government of distraction, but avoided to comment on the merits of the legislation) is crying even when the authorities disassociate themselves from the totalitarian regime's heritage, so I can imagine how severely they will be triggered, if they are explicitly told that the Nationalists were the baddies in the conflict, because overthrowing a democracy and installing a military junta on its place is nowadays considered morally dubious. Hopefully, this is just the beginning of the trend and de-francoisation is completed in the foreseeable future, especially as the influence of the remaining Francoist officials has been steadily declining.

Some argue justice delayed is justice denied, but at least Spain is moving to redress the eivl symbols of Franco's murderous and intolerant regime.

[Heathen Hammer]

Some argue justice delayed is justice denied, but at least Spain is moving to redress the eivl symbols of Franco's murderous and intolerant regime.

Its one way to describe whitewashing Stalinism if one thinks that white-washing Stalinism is a good thing.