Franco's Mausoleum upsets Spain, again.

[Cookiegod]

Never said anything like that, in fact, I always underlined that the people responsible for the coup were a cabal of treacherous officers, royalists, ultra-royalists, "normal" conservatives and outright fascists.

That obsession you have with those whom you consider conservative is also weird btw.

Appeals to determinism and to Franco's dictatorship duration appear as somewhat unconvincing excuses. After all, the time argument was not sufficient to prevent the comparison between Franco's butcher record in the civil war with Stalin's rule from emerging. Anyway, interwar Spain was certainly full of scoial tensions, but let's not forget who ignited the spark. It was the aforementioned group, explicitly motivated by the fact that they lost the latest legislative elections. Others could have been upset with advancing secularism, the dissolution of the monarchy and the increasing demands of workers and peasants. Quite the sore losers, Spain didn't experience a Bolshevik revolution, after the left was defeated in 1933... As a result, several rather sneaky gentlemen conspired together and orchestrated a particularly violent coup, which included the summary execution of everyone opposing the regime. The Constitution is pretty clear on this regard: as Joker's heart-breaking and traumatic childhood didn't exonerate him from all those murders he committed, Franco and co.'s hurt feelings do not justify their coup or reduce at the slightest their responsibility. Fragile snowflakery has its limits.

So, let's repeat some facts that so far have remained completely unchallenged. A bunch of royalists, fascists and army officers launched a coup, which mostly failed, so they pursued a bloody civil war, murdering hundreds of thousands of Spaniards during it (and not during the entirety of Franco's dictatorship), which is a number several times larger than that of the Republican side. The discrepancy is presumably explained by the fact that the Nationalists applied a policy of mass slaughter in every community they conquered, while the democratically elected government actively discouraged reprisals and, at its own expense, repeatedly refused to arm workers with lethal weapons. Then, when the dictator passed away, he was buried inside a basilica supposedly dedicated to the victims of the conflict and not to its main perpetrator. Nowadays, the parliamentary democracy, which is the immediate successor to Franco's junta, embarrassed by this obvious moral controversy, decided to move his body, in a formal and respectful ceremony, to the family mausoleum, probably because it acknowledges that Franco's principles violate the most essential values of modern, democratic and tolerant Spain. I fail to see the issue. Some nostalgic Falangists may get triggered, but, in all honesty, they are already upset by the mere presence of political pluralism, so no serious harm done.

And "the left" rose up and promptly started massacres when they lost, just 2 years earlier. They were perfectly willing even during the civil war to fight one another. There is absolutely no way that, in the unlikely case that e.g. the Nationalists simply packing and leaving for Marocco, it wouldn't still have gotten another civil war. And "the left" stopped killing simply because they lost the means to, whereas the Nationalists got the means to exact revenge on the vanquished. Which "the left" probably would have done as well, had they had the chance.

But more importantly, you're missing the main point that I'm trying to tell you. Franco and the Nationalists got lots of support ESPECIALLY BECAUSE such acts such as desecrating graves. Can you blame it on Franco as well? Nope, they started doing that immediately. And was that poor Carmelite nun a Francosupporter? Probably not, given that she'd been dead for a good number of years.

Those completely unnecessary acts drove people to the Nationalists back then, and this completely unnecessary act today will drive voters to that far right party we talked about earlier.

[hellheaven1987]

The legitimate elected government of Spain was a patchwork of factions and movements ranging from far left to moderate centrists.

Which was wrong; about 1/3 of parliament was considered right or far right, and the inability to work together between far right, centrists and far left was the main reason why Republic was often paralyzed most time.

[Abdülmecid I]

That obsession you have with those whom you consider conservative is also weird btw.

Where's the obsession? I just listed all the groups that participated, collaborated or endorsed the military coup against the democratically elected government of Spain, following your complaint that Franco was not the sole force behind it.

And "the left" rose up and promptly started massacres when they lost, just 2 years earlier. They were perfectly willing even during the civil war to fight one another. There is absolutely no way that, in the unlikely case that e.g. the Nationalists simply packing and leaving for Marocco, it wouldn't still have gotten another civil war. And "the left" stopped killing simply because they lost the means to, whereas the Nationalists got the means to exact revenge on the vanquished. Which "the left" probably would have done as well, had they had the chance.

These allegations and hypothetical scenarios have already been disproved. Firstly, the events in Asturias, approximately one year after the general elections of 1933, began as a worker strike, initiated by miners who aimed at an improvement of their working conditions. Usually labour rights are respected and protected in parliamentary democracies, so I'm not sure why you are so appalled at workers demanding a higher quality of life and try to associate their crimes with the 1933 elections and a terror campaign more than one thousand times more lethal. Again, as I already explained twice, Franco and co. already massacred more civilians and captives than their opponents during the civil war alone, even if we don't take into account the oppression of Franco's 40 years old regime. Actually, the Nationalists still killed more, even if we add the victims of "infinitely more evil" Lenin during the Russian Civil War. As explained above, the great difference in numbers is the result of the putschers actively pursuing a policy of terrifying their subjects into submission, while the government in Madrid tried to prevent them and even followed the suicidal approach of refusing to arm its supporters. I have already repeated these arguments numerous times, but they unfortunately remain unaddressed.

But more importantly, you're missing the main point that I'm trying to tell you. Franco and the Nationalists got lots of support ESPECIALLY BECAUSE such acts such as desecrating graves. Can you blame it on Franco as well? Nope, they started doing that immediately. And was that poor Carmelite nun a Francosupporter? Probably not, given that she'd been dead for a good number of years. Those completely unnecessary acts drove people to the Nationalists back then, and this completely unnecessary act today will drive voters to that far right party we talked about earlier.

Citation needed for exhumed nuns leading to increased support for Franco and for Vox getting strengthened, because the dictator's dead body lost its prestigious seat inside a luxurious basilica. Not that the first matters much, as I could easily justify the crimes committed by the Republicans as a legitimately infuriated response to the military coup and the subsequent mass executions of leftists, trade union members and loyal officers that followed.

Finally, what is unnecessary about moving the corpse of the instigator of the civil war from a monument supposedly dedicated to its victims to a less prominent family mausoleum? Do you believe that a modern democracy should to honour its ideological enemy, at the expense of hundreds of thousands of executed Spaniards, just for the sake of not triggering a couple of far-right extremists? That sounds like political correctness gone crazy, to be frank. Democratic states paying respect to despots that overthrew democracy and exterminated thousands of its citizens in the distant past is morally unacceptable. It may sound harsh, but if the aforementioned statement undermines the fragile sensitivities of Vox fandom, so be it. They are not special snowflakes and they should not expect an entire society to ridicule itself on a global scale, just so that they can sleep comfortably, dreaming of Caudillo restoring Christianity in Bolshevik Iberia.

[Ludicus]

Franco was far from perfect, but given how the other side was dominated by Stalinists...

Hitler was far from perfect, but given how the other side was dominated by Stalinists, it's really sad to remember Hitler's defeat at Stalingrad, the beginning of the end of the Third Reich.

Franco was the worst thing to happen to Spain since Tariq Ibn Zayid

I agree with everything you said, but I disagree with this statement...with Tariq's conquest of the Iberian Peninsula also came an Islamic civilization that flourished in the Iberian Peninsula. Do you know how many times Thomas Aquinas quoted Ibn Rushd/Averroes? no less than 503 times in his works.
"We should accept from our predecessors, whether they share our religion or not, whatever accords with the truth."(Averroes,Faṣl al-maqāl, 26)

I could easily justify the crimes committed by the Republicans as a legitimately infuriated response to the military coup and the subsequent mass executions of leftists, trade union members and loyal officers that followed..

Absolutely.

[Heathen Hammer]

Ah yes, a day can't go by in Mudpit without whitewashing socialist murderous groups.

Hitler was far from perfect, but given how the other side was dominated by Stalinists, it's really sad to remember Hitler's defeat at Stalingrad, the beginning of the end of the Third Reich.

I don't recall Franco being a socialist or putting people into concentration camps. He was authoritarian, but a lesser evil compared to the leftists side of Spanish Civil War.

It is no exaggeration to say Franco's treasonous rebellion and evil slaughter of his own people, aided by Hitler and Mussolini (also evil scum) strengthened Soviet influence in Spain immeasurably.

Nah, Franco crushed leftist traitors, who wanted to install Stalinism in Spain, and his actions prevented slaughter and enslavement of his people, which was a wise thing to do, given how world already witnessed horrors that Lenin and Trotsky unleashed in Russia (in fact, Russian White Army patriots who fought red scum in Russia during RCW volunteered to fight socialist scum in Spain as well, heroically contributing to liberation of Spain from socialist war criminals and murderers). He should have been less authoritarian after, but then again his side consisted of variety of groups, unlike leftists whose sole goal was to turn Spain into Stalin's puppet state.

[mishkin]

So many people writing such outbursts (Stalinism settling in Spain in the thirties, nuns being unearthed as a cause of the military coup d'etat...) that it is really difficult to take this discussion with a minimum of seriousness. Back up your statements with some data or, well, I don't know, keep having fun I guess.

Also, It is seriously depressing that there are people here pretending to whiten the figure of a person responsible for the death of between 100 and 200,000 people during the war and forty years of fascist dictatorship. At least be honest and say clearly that you support the fascist side. Its not against any TWC rule, nobody is going to insult you or ban you, you have the right to express your opinion clearly, to expose your real ideology.

[Heathen Hammer]

Nuns being unearthed is a fact, along with many other atrocities that were committed by Stalinist "republican" side of Spanish Civil War.
Also since their whole argument was "he invited Hitler!111" (even though that's a blatant lie since Spain was never part of the Axis in WW2), then apologists for socialist insurrection have a huge problem in data/facts department.

[mishkin]

You really have no idea. Spanish civil war ended in 1939. Guernica (i.e.) was before ww2, before any axis, and franco sent troops to fight with the nazis (division azul, eastern front).
Showme pre war atrocities commited by the 2nd republica.

[Swiss Army Cheese]

So many people writing such outbursts (Stalinism settling in Spain in the thirties, nuns being unearthed as a cause of the military coup d'etat...) that it is really difficult to take this discussion with a minimum of seriousness. Back up your statements with some data or, well, I don't know, keep having fun I guess.

I don't require data, all I really need is people going "Nuh, uh." and "Uh huh", and then conceding the point or doubling down on the "Nuh uh". At the moment people are just dancing around eachother (not quite addressing the other), which is making me really confused as that means I don't know which narrative to believe. I just tend to gravitate towards the most recent person to claim the other is a deceiver.

Also, It is seriously depressing that there are people here pretending to whiten the figure of a person responsible for the death of between 100 and 200,000 people during the war and forty years of fascist dictatorship. At least be honest and say clearly that you support the fascist side. Its not against any TWC rule, nobody is going to insult you or ban you, you have the right to express your opinion clearly, to expose your real ideology.

I feel like there are two principles at work here. "Don't speak ill of the dead", and "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything all".

That being said, frankly speaking I think "Fransisco" is a terrible name for a Spannish dictator (Or a German, or English dictator, it's fine for French ones). As if being named "Franko" wasn't bad enough, can you have a name that screems more "I'M A FRENCHMAN".

[Cyclops]

...


Nah, Franco crushed leftist traitors, who wanted to install Stalinism in Spain, and his actions prevented slaughter and enslavement of his people, which was a wise thing to do, given how world already witnessed horrors that Lenin and Trotsky unleashed in Russia (in fact, Russian White Army patriots who fought red scum in Russia during RCW volunteered to fight socialist scum in Spain as well, heroically contributing to liberation of Spain from socialist war criminals and murderers). He should have been less authoritarian after, but then again his side consisted of variety of groups, unlike leftists whose sole goal was to turn Spain into Stalin's puppet state.

Nonsense. The Popular Front factions included Catholic, Union, some outright Soviet collaborators, loony anarchists and regionalist elements (although few Monarchists). Your posts add nothing to the debate and reading them is a waste of time.

[Heathen Hammer]

Nonsense. The Popular Front factions included Catholic, Union, some outright Soviet collaborators, loony anarchists and regionalist elements (although few Monarchists). Your posts add nothing to the debate and reading them is a waste of time.

And? At the end it were mainly Stalinists that fought for the leftist side, as they effectively suppressed other factions who were too weak and insignificant to maintain a strong presence. It seems you are projecting a bit here.

[Ludicus]

Delete, please

[Ludicus]

HH, rejoice...fascist-era street names will be returned to Cordoba, according to the city's new rightist administration.
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I don't recall Franco..putting people into concentration camps

HH, go learn history...
Exploitation, fascist violence and social cleansing: a study of Franco's a study of Franco's concentration camps from a comparative perspective ...
Spain had 300 concentration camps detaining 1 million after 1936-39 ...
Francoist concentration camps - Wikipedia
PSYCHOLOGY IN FRANCO'S CONCENTRATION CAMPS
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General Franco gave list of Spanish Jews to Nazis | World news | The ...



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Psss, just a reminder-...ironically, Stalin the bloody dictator saved the world from Hitler. I mean, Zhukov,Hitler's nemesis.

[Bob69Joe]

Would Spain still be Catholic if the communists had declared victory? The Phalanx instilled virtue when the republicans had resentment. Not exactly an eloquent way to say it, but it is what it is. Franco also passed away and insisted afterward, though not before, the rightful king wold rule.

LEFTists destroy the past so that the only correct option laid out before our very own children who are vulnerable to LEFTism in our institutions will not see anything but. Destruction of monuments, court trials for 90 year old German guards, censoring of speech, it's all LEFTist tactics, the same tactics used by more extreme forms of egalitarian ideologies.

[mishkin]

Would Spain still be Catholic if the communists had declared victory? The Phalanx instilled virtue when the republicans had resentment. Not exactly an eloquent way to say it, but it is what it is. Franco also passed away and insisted afterward, though not before, the rightful king wold rule.

LEFTists destroy the past so that the only correct option laid out before our very own children who are vulnerable to LEFTism in our institutions will not see anything but. Destruction of monuments, court trials for 90 year old German guards, censoring of speech, it's all LEFTist tactics, the same tactics used by more extreme forms of egalitarian ideologies.

Hi. The opposing sides in the Spanish Civil War were not catholics against virulent atheists or liberals against communists, were rebel fascist generals against the democratically established (and not communist at all) government of the Second Republic. I doubt that the message you want to spread is that the only thing that opposed anti-democratic fascism was communism, but if your real goal is to present communism like this, go ahead.

Regarding the phalanx, yes, really virtuous to side with some coup plotters and against the democratically elected government. I can't stop mentioning how franco he got rid of them after the war. Things you expose yourself to when you support the establishment of a dictatorship.

I ignore your last paragraph because it has no substance nor is it the subject of this discussion.

[RandomPerson2000]

It's rather amusing to see several posters uncritically regurgitate Francoist narratives about how Spain would have fallen to communism if the Nationalists didn't the win the civil war, of course in reality the Communists were far from the omnipotent entity that dominated the Republic it's commonly depicted to be. At the start of the war, the Communist party was a minor political force while during the last few weeks of the civil war, it was more or less completely and quickly crushed by other Republican factions following Casado's coup despite them becoming more powerful as the conflict dragged on. If anything, it would have been more than likely political suicide if the Communist had attempted to forcibly take control over Spain prior to and during the civil war.

LEFTists destroy the past so that the only correct option laid out before our very own children who are vulnerable to LEFTism in our institutions will not see anything but. Destruction of monuments, court trials for 90 year old German guards, censoring of speech, it's all LEFTist tactics, the same tactics used by more extreme forms of egalitarian ideologies.

The conservative PiS government in Poland is surely not planning to pull down hundreds of communist monuments, because of course it's only the Leftists who want to "destroy the past".
https://www.dw.com/en/poland-plans-t...als/a-19185159
https://www.newsweek.com/poland-plan...numents-442661

[Heathen Hammer]

Psss, just a reminder-...ironically, Stalin the bloody dictator saved the world from Hitler. I mean, Zhukov,Hitler's nemesis.

Zhukov was a military commander, not government leader. Sigh. This is what I'm talking about: pretty much every post attempting to whitewash stalinist "republican" side of SCW is full of gross mistakes even on most basic of facts.

[mishkin]

Zhukov was a military commander, not government leader. Sigh. This is what I'm talking about: pretty much every post attempting to whitewash stalinist "republican" side of SCW is full of gross mistakes even on most basic of facts.

Says the guy posting nonsense like this (worth mentioning how he ignores all rebuttal):

Nuns being unearthed is a fact, along with many other atrocities that were committed by Stalinist "republican" side of Spanish Civil War.
Also since their whole argument was "he invited Hitler!111" (even though that's a blatant lie since Spain was never part of the Axis in WW2), then apologists for socialist insurrection have a huge problem in data/facts department.

(By the way, Franco was just a military commander, not "government" leader at all, at the beginning of the war).

[Ludicus]

Would Spain still be Catholic if the communists had declared victory?..

May I answer that? (on second half of your post: it doesn't make sense)
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That is an interesting question. Dolores Ibárruri, La Pasionaria (the Passionflower) was born and raised Catholic renounced catholicism, and died catholic. Monument to Dolores Ibarruri (La Pasionaria) in Glasgow



In 1918 she adopted the pseudonym "La Pasionaria" on the publication of an article, highlighting religious hypocrisy, which coincided with Holy Week in a devotedly Catholic country. Obviously, religion was often judged with severity by the Republicans, as it was seen to involve a manipulation of people's conscience. At the time, there was a wave of anticlerical violence.

The Constitution of the Second Republic obviously had anticlerical (read the great Spanish philosopher Unamuno-he once said that he was anticlerical in defence of the Church) aspects but nobody can deny that the Republican coalition's electoral policy stated:

Catholics: the maximum program of the coalition is freedom of religion ...only religious liberty can emancipate us from discreditable clericalism. The Republic ... will not persecute any religion. Tolerance will be its theme

So, let's go back to 1931. From Jewish historical archives, April 17, 1931 Separation of Church and State Proclaimed in Spain: Equality of Rights for All Creeds and Religions

The Republican Government, which has been proclaimed in Spain, has informed the Papal Nuncio in Madrid, it is stated today, that in accordance with the declarations of principle published on the proclamation of the Republic, the Republican Government will establish freedom of conscience and equality of rights for all creeds and religions in Spain, and that in consequence the Catholic Church will henceforth lose its privileged position as an integral part of the State. All Roman Catholic priests in the country will be required to accept the principle of separation between Church and State and to swear loyalty to the Republic.
The relations between Church and State till now have been regulated by the Concordat of May 6th., 1851.
The first legally-recognized synagogue in Spain since the expulsion of 1492 was opened in Madrid as recently as last December, the congregation consisting of 30 families who had organized themselves with the consent of the Government, and a Government official was present at the opening ceremony and signed the statutes of the congregation.

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On a side note-Let's keep in mind that in my country, the transition to democracy in 1974/5 also posed the problem of constructing a new model for relationships between the state and the Catholic church. Portugal is now a secular state.
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The Spanish fanatic,conservative religious right will never forgive Dolores, Spanish Civil War: Vandals desecrate graves of Spanish Republican heroine - El País






And they will never forgive the Thirteen Roses. The monument was recently vandalized. Pedro Sánchez visita el monumento a las Trece Rosas tras la ... - El País
Remembering the Thirteen Roses - University Digital Conservancy

A group of thirteen women— seven under the age of eighteen—were executed near Madrid’s Ventas prison in the Cementerio del Este a few months after the end of the Spanish Civil War. The women had been involved in the communist youth organization, the Juventudes Socialistas Unificadas. Many of them had been recruited to serve as communist liaisons in Madrid at the end of the war, when most of the socialist and communist political leaders had gone into exile. At their trial, which took place two days before the execution, they were accused of political rebellion against Franco’s regime. Their execution sent a strong message to those who opposed Franco; no one who went against the dictator, regardless of age or gender, was exempt from extreme punishment or death

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Here, the PCP was the largest clandestine opposition during the dictatorship. The Catholic church must be respected, that's what they say nowadays .PCP. “Igreja católica deve ser respeitada e a visita do Papa acolhida
A militant of the communist Party, former candidate in the 2106 Presidential election says

The fight against poverty, social inequalities, job precariousness and peace building are concrete aspects that aim to bring communists and Catholics closer together

I know I'm wasting my time. Anyway,I hope I have answered your question.

[Heathen Hammer]

(By the way, Franco was just a military commander, not "government" leader at all, at the beginning of the war).

And? He had more authority in Spain, then Zhukov did in USSR.