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Thread: Franco's Mausoleum upsets Spain, again.

  1. #101

    Default Re: Franco's Mausoleum upsets Spain, again.

    Destroy that mausoleum and throw Franco's corpse into a woodchipper. But first hang it upside down for the lulz.
    Optio, Legio I Latina

  2. #102

    Default Re: Franco's Mausoleum upsets Spain, again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    Those of you who obviously idealise the Spanish republic should read Hemingway's For Whom The Bell Tolls. And spare me this left vs right & freedom fighters crap. That's not how reality works. Both sides were very willing to commit horrible, horrible crimes.
    I'd suggest reading a historical book, instead. Republican crimes are not very relevant, when the issue concerns specifically Franco's ruthlessness, but, as it has been mentioned before, there are serious qualitative differences. Apart from the much greater victims of the White Terror, the Spanish government did not endorse and in fact actively tried to discourage and prevent massacres committed by its supporters. On the other hand, the Nationalist leadership proudly followed a policy of indiscriminate murder, torture, imprisonment and repression, in an effort to terrify its citizens into submission.

    Moreover, let's not forget that several individuals executed by the Republicans, including fascists, royalists, army officers and top clerics were responsible for the extremely serious offense of treason and sedition, which was unsurprisingly punished with death, according to the Spanish laws. Finally, Republicans literally fought to protect the democratically elected (despite the rampant ballot fraud perpetrated by right-wing elites in the countryside) government, from the thread posed by a group of officers, who were determined to install a totalitarian regime and violate the Spanish people's principal human rights. That sounds to me like the definition of freedom fighter.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    And yeah this destroy the past through memorials and graves (?!) doesn't work for me. Obviously totalitarians of any political movement find it swell to erase anything nonconforming. Proponents of an open pluralist society reserve their strength to educate.
    What monument and grave has been destroyed? The basilica, memorial and big, fat cross are still standing intact, admiring the view of the Guadarrama Mountains, while the dictator's body was exhumed, inside its impeccable coffin, and moved, using a helicopter, to the richly decorated family mausoleum. It looks like a pretty luxurious treatment to me, especially if we take into consideration the average standards for cemetery relocations and the fate Franco reserved for his opponents. I really don't understand the moral disgust at the initiative. I would have thought that a tyrant being buried inside a honourific monument supposedly dedicated to the victims the war he provoked caused would be much more controversial than simply moving his skeleton, during a rather solemn and respectful ceremony, into a slightly less prestigious grave. From a moral and ideological perspective, it's not very wise for modern parliamentary democracies to pay tribute to authoritarian rulers, with a history of overthrowing democracy and sadistically murdering everyone in their path.

  3. #103
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    Default Re: Franco's Mausoleum upsets Spain, again.

    Queipo de Llano (fascist general) publicly (radio broadcast) calling for the murder and rape of women on April 23, 1936:

    "What will I do? Well, impose a very heavy punishment to silence those stupid idiots (followers) of Azaña. That is why I empower all citizens to, when they stumble upon one of those subjects, shut them up with a shot. Or bring them to me, I'll hit them. "

    Our brave legionaries and regulars have taught cowards what it means to be a man. And by the way, women too. After all, these communists and anarchists deserve it, haven't they been playing free love? Now at least they will know what real men are and not sissy militiamen. They will not get rid of how much they struggle and kick.

    You will know my system: For each one of the order that falls, I will kill at least ten extremists, and the fleeing leaders, do not believe that they will get rid of it: I will take them out from under the earth if necessary, and if they are dead i will kill them again."

    We could also talk about how the fascists prolonged the war (the other option is that they were inept) to continue raping, killing and torturing with total impunity.

    And a reminder of something even if it seems obvious: those who are winning are the ones who have more opportunities to show their barbarism.
    Last edited by mishkin; October 29, 2019 at 08:08 AM.

  4. #104
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    Default Re: Franco's Mausoleum upsets Spain, again.

    Thing is: I hate Lenin. I still don't think he should be moved from his Mausoleum. And Stalin for all I care could be with him there. Same thing goes for Franco. Instead of unnecessarily opening up graves again, let just leave the dead where they belong. Otherwise hey, let's take all those Conquistadors, Kings, knights etc. out of their cathedrals and crypts as well. Because what's the difference?

    The entire world is filled to the brim with bloodthirsty tyrants, who had themselves buried in huge monuments.
    Taking one of them out purely for propaganda reasons doesn't help anyone.
    And that's just the principled standpoint.

    Taking Franco out was also done with the implicit claim, that the war had a good and an evil side. That was not the case (at least as far as the good side was concerned).

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    From Socrates over Jesus to me it has always been the lot of any true visionary to be rejected by the reactionary bourgeoisie
    Qualis noncives pereo! #justiceforcookie #egalitéfraternitécookié #CLM

  5. #105
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    Default Re: Franco's Mausoleum upsets Spain, again.

    The good side: the defenders of the democratically established government. The bad side: those who with a military uprising overthrew a democratically established government, led a country to a bloody civil war and forty years of dictatorship.

    If you do not know why the Spanish government has wanted to move the corpse of this particular dictator, I recommend you read this discussion. The government finally decided to take his remains to a more discreet place because it was an insult to his victims and the descendants of his victims that his remains rested in a mausoleum, a pharaonic construction erected to honor him and fascism (there are also many photos in this same thread of the fascists visiting their mausoleum).

  6. #106
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    Default Re: Franco's Mausoleum upsets Spain, again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    "The title should be Franco Mausoleum upsets leftist extremists, while the rest of country is more concerned with leftist extremists then with Franco"
    It seems to be a common thing among jihadists and the left to attack... historical artifacts or places of burial.
    On the other hand this will probably rally more votes to VOX party
    That was incredibly stupid. The world for you is a dichotomy between the "good" side (extreme far right) and a malevolent force- everything else: moderate right, center, left.

    But in fact, rejoice:Far right in Spain: Far-right Spanish political party Vox:
    "The far-right party rejects Spain's highly decentralized system granting devolved powers to the region"...a list of changes it wants to see across Spain.
    The Francoist/fascist Party receives money from the Franco Foundation,



    The existence of the fascist foundation is adding insult to injury. EU chamber urges states to ban fascist groups
    26 October 2018
    The European Parliament yesterday passed a resolution in favour of banning radical far-right groups in its member states.
    The motion could lead the way for the banning of the Francisco Franco Foundation, which defends the legacy of the dictator and his regime .
    Passed with 355 votes in favour, 90 against, and 39 abstentions, the resolution urges EU states to take “effective” action against organisations that “glorify” Nazism and fascism.
    Another amendment passed refers to the Spanish parliament’s decision to remove Franco’s remains from the Valley of the Fallen mausoleum, and calls for the “withdrawal of all symbols and monuments that glorify the military uprising, the Civil War and the dictatorship.”
    --
    Edit,
    Timoleon view on Franco's crimes,
    Quote Originally Posted by Timoleon of Korinthos View Post
    Not against humanity, against the leftists
    For Timoleon, leftists are not human beings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timoleon of Korinthos View Post
    they are not just remembered but even venerated by many today, whereas you will leave behind you the same historical footprint as a bug.
    I'm hearing "The Ride of Valkyries". Brunilde is ready for the transportation of fallen heroes Hitler and Franco to Valhalla- and many others whose feats defeat the grave.
    You are too apt to look down upon theignobile vulgus with contempt. Yes, I'm a proud, happy and and insignificant bug,I don't carry upon my shoulders the crimes of all those extraordinary "heroes". We know already that Europe became great by becoming ruthlessly effective in war, and the Catalans are coward castrated slaves.
    Last edited by Ludicus; October 29, 2019 at 07:14 PM.
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    Default Re: Franco's Mausoleum upsets Spain, again.

    Intellectual maturity requires that one is able to handle seeing things he dislikes. But since you guys want to play the damnatio memoriae game: Should Lenin, Stalin and other communist leaders also be taken out of their graves?

    What about kings and queens and other historical personalities of questionable morality? Why stop with Franco when in Spain Columbus, and characters such as Ferdinand have their place?

    What would France look like today if the house of Bourbon had followed the example of the revolution and done the same to e.g. Napoléon ?

    What exactly should be the metric here?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    From Socrates over Jesus to me it has always been the lot of any true visionary to be rejected by the reactionary bourgeoisie
    Qualis noncives pereo! #justiceforcookie #egalitéfraternitécookié #CLM

  8. #108
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    Default Re: Franco's Mausoleum upsets Spain, again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    Intellectual maturity requires that one is able to handle seeing things he dislikes.
    What are you talking about? Has anyone denied that in any war both sides commit atrocities? The only thing that has been pointed out here is that here one side committed more atrocities, systematically (executions, torture and violations) and for a longer time (1936 - 1975, last political executions).

    But since you guys want to play the damnatio memoriae game: Should Lenin, Stalin and other communist leaders also be taken out of their graves?
    As far as I know the only dictators buried in grandiloquent mausoleums are (were) Lenin (1924) and Franco (1975). The rest of them (Stalin, Ceaucescu, Salazar, Mussolini, sorry I am missing someone probably) are buried in fairly normal graves.

    What about kings and queens and other historical personalities of questionable morality? Why stop with Franco when in Spain Columbus, and characters such as Ferdinand have their place?

    What would France look like today if the house of Bourbon had followed the example of the revolution and done the same to e.g. Napoléon ?

    What exactly should be the metric here?
    The metric is: Is this mother####er directly responsible for the death and torture of direct family members of mine?

    If you want to talk about this topic in general (withdrawal of monuments from public spaces), there was a discussion in the academy about it.

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    Default Re: Franco's Mausoleum upsets Spain, again.

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    What are you talking about? Has anyone denied that in any war both sides commit atrocities? The only thing that has been pointed out here is that here one side committed more atrocities, systematically (executions, torture and violations) and for a longer time (1936 - 1975, last political executions).
    That's BS.

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    As far as I know the only dictators buried in grandiloquent mausoleums are (were) Lenin (1924) and Franco (1975). The rest of them (Stalin, Ceaucescu, Salazar, Mussolini, sorry I am missing someone probably) are buried in fairly normal graves.
    Stalin etc. are put into the Kremlin wall. Not exactly normal.

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    The metric is: Is this mother####er directly responsible for the death and torture of direct family members of mine?
    Ah, kay. So Stalin and Lenin should go.

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    If you want to talk about this topic in general (withdrawal of monuments from public spaces), there was a discussion in the academy about it.
    If you don't have a principled argument, you don't have any argument at all. It's that simple. Countries that don't do this shtick to their political opponents end up with more historical legacy than their opponents, and fewer scars.

    No one gets stopped from going in front of the grave of Columbus and saying: "Well, he did have an impact on the world, but it wasn't necessarily the best one..."
    That same thing goes for Franco, Lenin and others.
    Last edited by Cookiegod; October 30, 2019 at 04:02 AM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    From Socrates over Jesus to me it has always been the lot of any true visionary to be rejected by the reactionary bourgeoisie
    Qualis noncives pereo! #justiceforcookie #egalitéfraternitécookié #CLM

  10. #110
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    Default Re: Franco's Mausoleum upsets Spain, again.

    Are you comparing a statue next to a wall with the ###ing valle de los caidos? have you seen pictures? (Just in case you want my personal opinion, if someone wants to take the remains of the three (lenin, Stalin and Franco) and sink them into an abyssal pit, fine).

    Dont know mate, Lenin died in 1924, Stalin in 1954 (?), this mother###er in question kept killing and torturing untill 1975. If you do not see the difference, even with the example I have set in my previous post, there is nothing more I can say.
    Last edited by mishkin; October 30, 2019 at 04:02 AM.

  11. #111
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    Default Re: Franco's Mausoleum upsets Spain, again.

    You are right. There is no comparison. Franco doesn't get anywhere near the bodycount Columbus, many Spanish kings, or regarding the Soviet Union, Stalin and Lenin reaped up. The location Stalin has is actually pretty neat.

    I have zero investment in this, but if you think the military uprising started in a vacuum and had nothing to do with the country being a massive powder keg even before the actual civil war started, with both sides committing crimes that made previously moderate people choose sides out of fear, then you're mistaken.

    Take the Asturias rebellion in 1934 as an example, where the anarchist insurgents first did their rather famous massacre, and then got put similarly harshly down by Franco, then still general of the republican army. Did he deserve that nickname "butcher of Asturias"? Probably. Should they have given him the justification to carry that retaliation out in the first place? Probably not.

    And yeah, maybe Abdulhamid is right and the republic government did order fewer crimes on purpose, but those that did happen, whether on purpose or not, did cause people to side with the nationalists. Often for no other reason than them wanting to be able to practice their religion. Just like not everyone fighting for the Republicans was a war criminal, the same also goes for those fighting for the Nationalists.

    And while I see Stalin and Lenin as genocidal mass murderers, I'm well aware that a sizable chunk of the population does not see them that way. That doesn't mean they endorse what he did, they simply think they either didn't do them, or had good reasons. Same goes for Franco and the people in Spain who still think he did good.

    So what do we see these days? This:
    The timing could not be better, nor, perhaps, worse. At the end of April, Spaniards will vote in a general election that is set to see Vox become the first avowedly far-right party to win seats in the national parliament since Spain returned to democracy.

    Vox, which broke through into the mainstream in last December’s Andalucían regional election, is big on slogans, short on details and shares much of its ideological DNA with Franco and his followers.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ight-vox-party
    The right wingers will profit from this, just like they did from similar acts before and during the civil war.
    Last edited by Lifthrasir; October 30, 2019 at 05:39 AM. Reason: Pic removed again (obscene content)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    From Socrates over Jesus to me it has always been the lot of any true visionary to be rejected by the reactionary bourgeoisie
    Qualis noncives pereo! #justiceforcookie #egalitéfraternitécookié #CLM

  12. #112
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    Default Re: Franco's Mausoleum upsets Spain, again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    Franco doesn't get anywhere near the bodycount Columbus...No one gets stopped from going in front of the grave of Columbus and saying: "Well, he did have an impact on the world, but it wasn't necessarily the best one..."
    A faulty comparison. Ignorant people, those unfamiliar with the history, pseudo-historians, myopic or envious minds. I'm not a fanatic euro-centrist (those who have read the monumental work of Donald Lach "Asia in The Making of Europe" know what I'm talking about) but it should be recognized that until the 16th century, evolution was in a divergent course, as the biota (plants and animals) of isolated/ barely accessible continents grew increasingly distinct. Since then, thanks to Iberic- Portuguese and Spanish- expansion during the 16th and 17th centuries, that linked continents, evolution has been in a convergent phase, with same crops, same livestock, same diseases and even same human types tend to recur around the world, that was the beginning of the globalization. I would dare to say that we (Portuguese and Spanish - in no particular order) created Atlantic networks around which-as the English/Spanish historian Felipe Armesto has put it- " modern Western civilization took shape, pioneering transfusions of blood and culture across the oceans". In fact we played a vital role in this process- certainly lethal-I don't deny it- for Blacks and Indians, in many aspects, eg. the Portuguese/Spanish/English and even Dutch transatlantic slave trade.
    ----------
    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    The right wingers will profit from this, just like they did from similar acts before and during the civil war.
    So be it. It doesn't matter. Sanchez did the right thing.
    Spain has a fractured society, the well-intentioned pact of forgetting is fragile. As I see it, mainly because francoist officials were involved in the negotiations of democratic transition and they had vested interest in keeping the past quiet, dormant, but the fascist beast is still alive. I don't envy Sanchez. In the next elections, Pedro needs to build a strong leftist coalition, or die ( metaphorically). We are worried, what matters to Spain matters to us. More centralization means less stability, it's a vicious circle. The post-imperial nostalgia of the right in Spain will never accept a federative solution, Sanchez's impossible dream. That's a pity.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
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    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  13. #113

    Default Re: Franco's Mausoleum upsets Spain, again.

    Just to give the proper context, contrary to the claims of the modern trend of equating fascism with communism and thus whitewashing the former, the victims of both the Russian and Spanish Red Terror combined are considerably fewer than Franco's kill list. In what concerns Cortes and other slightly irrelevant examples, as it has already been mentioned, the issue of Franco's legacy in modern Spain, cannot be compared with what happened in Mexico during the 16th century. We are not talking about a distant historical figure, but about a dictator, who temporarily overthrew the political system of Spanish parliamentary democracy and whose victims may still be alive today. Expecting any modern state to treat a despot, whose reign occurred in living memory, in a neutral manner is completely absurd. Comparing said tyrant with medieval conquerors is equally unreasonable and, in my opinion, a fallacious distraction.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    And yeah, maybe Abdulhamid is right and the republic government did order fewer crimes on purpose, but those that did happen, whether on purpose or not, did cause people to side with the nationalists. Often for no other reason than them wanting to be able to practice their religion. Just like not everyone fighting for the Republicans was a war criminal, the same also goes for those fighting for the Nationalists.
    It's the view of almost all major historians, from Hugh Thomas to Anthony Beevor and Helen Graham. The fact remains that, according to our moral standards, anyone who launches a military coup against a popular, democratically elected government and subsequently systematically massacres hundreds of thousands that stand on his path to domination is considered as a baddie, even if some of his opponents committed the unspeakable horrour of exhuming the bodies of dead nuns. As for the Asturias strike in 1934 (where, by the way, anarchists played only a marginal role), I don't believe that strikes, even if they later evolve into uprisings and other forms of popular struggle, should be equated with a couple of army officers conspiring against their society, constitution, military and civilian superiors and then attempt to install a junta. 33 murdered clerics and mine-businessmen does not reach the levels of the Spanish White Terror, does it?

  14. #114
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    Default Re: Franco's Mausoleum upsets Spain, again.

    No Abdul, his coup didn't happen in a vacuum and did not come out of nowhere. Nor was Franco alone in starting the failed coup attempt, nor the primus motor behind it.
    This video gives you a nice summary of also the run-up to the war.

    The country was split right through the middle and extremists on both sides made that civil war inevitable.

    Secondly, it's not the numbers themselves that matter, but the effect they have on people. People on both sides fought against the perceived transgressions on both sides, and both sides had a great many of them. Franco obviously won, which enabled his side to carry out revenge, whilst the other side became less and less able to carry out theirs. There is no telling what would have happened in the case of a Republican victory, which was impossible to begin with. Probably another civil war between communists, anarchists and perhaps other liberals. That infighting happened regardless.

    And finally ESPECIALLY given the history the Spanish left had with desecrating graves, opening this one already is a show of bad taste.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    From Socrates over Jesus to me it has always been the lot of any true visionary to be rejected by the reactionary bourgeoisie
    Qualis noncives pereo! #justiceforcookie #egalitéfraternitécookié #CLM

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    Default Re: Franco's Mausoleum upsets Spain, again.

    Have to agree Abdulmecid, and its worth teasing out the horendous complexity of the Spanish Civil war further. Franco represents an extreme fringe of the Right, as the murderous Russian Communist faction represented the extreme fringe of the Left. I would oppose the deification of Soviet "volunteers' or other opportunists anti-democratic elements: the poor soldiers were not there willingly I guess, and Stalin was involved for his own evil agenda as were Hitler and Mussolini.

    Its worth recalling the murder and atrocities of the worst of the left, but as you say, Franco was the worst of the Right and they took him as their leader. Franco and his soldier's and confederates' atrocities dwarf the Reds altogether, and in many ways his illegal and treacherous actions made possible (or increased the likelihood of) the Soviet and other extremist Left atrocities.

    This does have relevance in the Catalan debate. So long as Madrid elites glorify an illegal traitor as the hero of "their" country they alienate the sections of the community he set out to crush. Franco took as his colours Castilian ethnicity, an ultramontane Catholicism and a violent disregard for the rule of law in favour of "might is right". His adoring followers set themselves against democracy, popular will, plural ethnic identity and religious freedom.

    This is summed up by his improper burial in a cemetery for victims of war: he was the torturer, not the victim and his presence is a bitter insult to the truth of history, human decency, and the rule of law (all hallmarks of the man's evil life and career).
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  16. #116

    Default Re: Franco's Mausoleum upsets Spain, again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    No Abdul, his coup didn't happen in a vacuum and did not come out of nowhere. Nor was Franco alone in starting the failed coup attempt, nor the primus motor behind it.
    Never said anything like that, in fact, I always underlined that the people responsible for the coup were a cabal of treacherous officers, royalists, ultra-royalists, "normal" conservatives and outright fascists. Appeals to determinism and to Franco's dictatorship duration appear as somewhat unconvincing excuses. After all, the time argument was not sufficient to prevent the comparison between Franco's butcher record in the civil war with Stalin's rule from emerging. Anyway, interwar Spain was certainly full of scoial tensions, but let's not forget who ignited the spark. It was the aforementioned group, explicitly motivated by the fact that they lost the latest legislative elections. Others could have been upset with advancing secularism, the dissolution of the monarchy and the increasing demands of workers and peasants. Quite the sore losers, Spain didn't experience a Bolshevik revolution, after the left was defeated in 1933... As a result, several rather sneaky gentlemen conspired together and orchestrated a particularly violent coup, which included the summary execution of everyone opposing the regime. The Constitution is pretty clear on this regard: as Joker's heart-breaking and traumatic childhood didn't exonerate him from all those murders he committed, Franco and co.'s hurt feelings do not justify their coup or reduce at the slightest their responsibility. Fragile snowflakery has its limits.

    So, let's repeat some facts that so far have remained completely unchallenged. A bunch of royalists, fascists and army officers launched a coup, which mostly failed, so they pursued a bloody civil war, murdering hundreds of thousands of Spaniards during it (and not during the entirety of Franco's dictatorship), which is a number several times larger than that of the Republican side. The discrepancy is presumably explained by the fact that the Nationalists applied a policy of mass slaughter in every community they conquered, while the democratically elected government actively discouraged reprisals and, at its own expense, repeatedly refused to arm workers with lethal weapons. Then, when the dictator passed away, he was buried inside a basilica supposedly dedicated to the victims of the conflict and not to its main perpetrator. Nowadays, the parliamentary democracy, which is the immediate successor to Franco's junta, embarrassed by this obvious moral controversy, decided to move his body, in a formal and respectful ceremony, to the family mausoleum, probably because it acknowledges that Franco's principles violate the most essential values of modern, democratic and tolerant Spain. I fail to see the issue. Some nostalgic Falangists may get triggered, but, in all honesty, they are already upset by the mere presence of political pluralism, so no serious harm done.

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    Default Re: Franco's Mausoleum upsets Spain, again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Franco and his soldier's and confederates' atrocities dwarf the Reds altogether, and in many ways his illegal and treacherous actions made possible (or increased the likelihood of) the Soviet and other extremist Left atrocities.
    Na, terrorism had been the daily Spanish life committed by all factions since late 19th Century, civil war simply turned it into large scale by all sides.
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  18. #118
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    Default Re: Franco's Mausoleum upsets Spain, again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    Asturias strike.. 33 murdered clerics and mine-businessmen does not reach the levels of the Spanish White Terror, does it?
    Since we are talking about the white terror, in the aftermath, Asturian miners' strike of 1934 - Wikipedia
    In the armed action taken against the uprising, some 3,000 miners were killed in the fighting, with another 30,000[15]to 40,000 taken prisoner[16] and thousands more sacked from their jobs.[17] The repression of the uprising carried out by the colonial troops was very harsh, including looting, rape and summary executions
    ---
    Or let's keep in mind, in 1937, the obliteration of Guernica - a disproportionated, unprovoked and brutal attack on a civilian target.



    Picasso's most famous work, Guernica, was painted as an immediate reaction to the Nazi's devastating bombing on Guernica,


    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  19. #119

    Default Re: Franco's Mausoleum upsets Spain, again.

    Franco was far from perfect, but given how the other side was dominated by Stalinists, who wanted to re-create regime that was second place in history (after Communist China, which also modeled itself after Stalin's USSR btw) in terms of death-count, Id' say Franco deserves honors and memorials for preventing that.

  20. #120
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    Default Re: Franco's Mausoleum upsets Spain, again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Franco was far from perfect,...
    Such understatement. I am reminded of Hirohito's surrender speech "the war situation has developed not necessarily to Japan's advantage". I think Franco killed almost as many people as the nuke at Nagasaki...

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    ...but given how the other side was dominated by Stalinists, who wanted to re-create regime that was second place in history (after Communist China, which also modeled itself after Stalin's USSR btw) in terms of death-count, ...
    Your post resounds with ugly ignorance. The legitimate elected government of Spain was a patchwork of factions and movements ranging from far left to moderate centrists. It as only with the rabid intervention of vioent traitor and evil foreign powers that Spain sought foreign aid: the only power that responded was the evil Soviet Union. The savage lurch to the left was orchestrated by these scum, only after the revolt had begun.

    It is no exaggeration to say Franco's treasonous rebellion and evil slaughter of his own people, aided by Hitler and Mussolini (also evil scum) strengthened Soviet influence in Spain immeasurably.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    ... Id' say Franco deserves honors and memorials for preventing that.
    For slaughtering his own people, inviting in Hitler, impoverishing the state, and giving the Soviets a playground for their evil scheme you want Franco honoured? I have to say you post a lot of nonsense. He was a vicious butcher like Kim Il Sung or Mussolini, and his regime failed for lack of intelligence when he died. The current monarchy was happy to inherit the mess he left giving him a veneer of legitimacy that cannot cover the stench of his infamy.

    Franco was the worst thing to happen to Spain since Tariq Ibn Zayid (another military commander who brought an army and harsh rule from Africa).
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

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