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Thread: Nine Years War submod ideas thread (Update 06/08/2019)

  1. #21
    Geronimo2006's Avatar TAR Local Moderator
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    Default Re: Nine Years War submod ideas thread (Update 06/08/2019)

    I've attached an update screenshot of the French general model. I have chosen a red coat because in portraits of the Duke of Noailles and the Duke of Villeroy, they are wearing red coats. There is also a painting (shown in previous post) of the Duke of Luxembourg wearing a redcoat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leon Katakalon View Post
    Geronimo have you checked the M2TW With Fire and Sword 1.3 version? It has the entire Europe map plus a Sun King French map campaign. How does it seem to you, since we don't have many Pike and Shot era mods.
    I haven't heard of that version but I will check it out thanks.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails generalfr.png  
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  2. #22

    Default Re: Nine Years War submod ideas thread (Update 06/08/2019)

    When Pike and Shot formations were abandoned for good? Louis XIV armies fought in Pike and Shot or in musket linear style?





  3. #23
    Geronimo2006's Avatar TAR Local Moderator
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    Default Re: Nine Years War submod ideas thread (Update 06/08/2019)

    Quote Originally Posted by Leon Katakalon View Post
    When Pike and Shot formations were abandoned for good? Louis XIV armies fought in Pike and Shot or in musket linear style?
    The French kept the pike until 1703, but in practice by then only Swiss regiments still had them by that stage. The Regiment du Roi abandoned them around 1692-3. The French began to phase them out after the king heard of an event at the Battle of Steenkerque 1692 where the pikemen threw down their pikes and picked up the muskets of their dead comrades.

    Also the Gardes Francaises pikemen seem to have kept wearing a cuirass (breastplate) almost until they stopped having pikemen, and this may have been as late as 1696. On the linear formation question I need to do more research on this but I think the answer is "yes". Linear formations had been successfully used by the Swedes in the Thirty Years War to increase the rate of musket fire.
    Last edited by Geronimo2006; January 18, 2020 at 12:19 AM.
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    Default Re: Nine Years War submod ideas thread (Update 06/08/2019)

    Great work Geronimo

    The Austrian army abandoned pikes during 1690´s during the Ottoman campaigns. They were replaced by Cheval de Frise on the Ottoman front to protect the infantry from fierce Ottoman cavalry attacks.

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    Default Re: Nine Years War submod ideas thread (Update 06/08/2019)

    Quote Originally Posted by tomySVK View Post
    Great work Geronimo

    The Austrian army abandoned pikes during 1690´s during the Ottoman campaigns. They were replaced by Cheval de Frise on the Ottoman front to protect the infantry from fierce Ottoman cavalry attacks.
    Thanks. However there is some disagreement on the Austrian pikes. The Osprey book on the siege of Vienna puts the date of abolition at 1699.
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    Default Re: Nine Years War submod ideas thread (Update 06/08/2019)

    Hi, I didn´t mean the year 1690, but the last decade of the 17th century. You are right that Osprey´s book puts the date of abolition at 1699. But another book puts these date to 1691:

    "In the eigteenth century, each combatant was changing, the Austrians enhancing their firepower by adopting flintlock muskets and dispensing with pikemen, while the Tursk increasingly put their emphasis on the infantry rather than sipahis, the feudal cavalry. The Austrians abandoned the pike in the Balkans in about 1691 when Marshal Caprara changed pikemen companies into musketeer ones. In the West, pikes remained in Austrian ordinances until 1703, but were not used against the French from about 1690." (Jeremy Black, War in the Eighteenth-Century World, page 32)

    It´s interesting to note, that officially the pikes were mained in Austrian ordinances until 1703, but they were not used in the field.

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    Default Re: Nine Years War submod ideas thread (Update 06/08/2019)

    Noted thank you.

    The Osprey book also says that the flintlock didn't come into regular service in the Austrian infantry until 1699.

    Grenadiers presumably would have used them as they were an elite unit. Another book I read some time ago said that the introduction of the flintlock for the infantry was very slow, but was faster for the cavalry.
    Last edited by Geronimo2006; November 05, 2019 at 03:42 AM.
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    Default Re: Nine Years War submod ideas thread (Update 06/08/2019)

    Quote Originally Posted by Geronimo2006 View Post
    Noted thank you.

    The Osprey book also says that the flintlock didn't come into regular service in the Austrian infantry until 1699.

    Grenadiers presumably would have used them as they were an elite unit. Another book I read some time ago said that the introduction of the flintlock for the infantry was very slow, but was faster for the cavalry.
    You are welcome.

    I will also check this issue in my books - I have a feeling it was also a big project for Imperial budget

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    Default Re: Nine Years War submod ideas thread (Update 06/08/2019)

    The change from matchlock to flintlock was a very slow process in the Habsburg Monarchy, and in the 1660s there were even hybrids combining flintlock and matchlock. The Turskish army was more advamced in that respect, with the elite unit of the janissaries already being equipped with flintlock firearms at he sieges of Vienna in 1683 an Ofen (Buda) three years later. At the battle of Slankamen in 1691, the Christian army carried the day despite heavy losses due to the fact that the Christian troops still largely had matchlocks, while the Turks were mostly equipped with flintlocks. Even as lata as the very beginning of the War of the Spanish Succession (1701-14), Imperial regiments were armed wholly or partly with matchlock muskets, which alone were to be found in the Emperor´s arsenals of the time. The major domestic arms manufactures only gradually changed their production, an their capacity was in any case insufficient to equip all units with modern flintlocks, particulary at a point when massive wartime mobilization was under way. It may also have been the colonel-proprietors who were unwilling to spend too much on equipping their units with costly new weaponry. According to a regulation of 1702, however, the Emperor´s infantry was to be armed exclusively with flintlock muskets, the old matchlocks were to be handed in to be scrapped or adapted for use as flintlocks. Oppenheimer, the dominant army supplier, was in charge procuring 21,000 flintlock muskets. But it was not until 1722 that standardized musket was introduced. since muskets ordered from Suhl in Thuringia had proved superior to those fabricated in Austria, they were adopted as modles for domestic production in the spring of 1722. Following the Venetians and thier experiences in the siege warfare of Candia (Crete), grenadiers were introduced in the Imperial army from the 1670s.

    Hand grenades - hollow balls made of bronze, iron or thick glass, filled with gunpowder and thrown against the enemy - played an important role in siege warfare, not least during the siege of Vienna in 1683. elite troops consisting of especially tall and powerful men, the grenadiers were among the first infantry units to be fully equipped with the modern flintlock musket, and they remained elite soldiers, even after the use of hand grenades had been abondoned in the mid-1750s.

    (Michael Hochedlinger, Austria's Wars of Emergence, 1683-1797 p. 127)

    I hope it will help

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    Default Re: Nine Years War submod ideas thread (Update 06/08/2019)

    Thank you
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  11. #31

    Default Re: Nine Years War submod ideas thread (Update 06/08/2019)

    It's nice to see this mod is still being worked on. I'm looking forward to its release.

    I've found and lost again the book on the British army I mentioned in the first reply. But I remember it describing pikes and muskets being used in alternating blocks. And dragoons beginning their transition into proper cavalry. Being armed with muskets as well as pistols and swords. I'll try and find it again.

    Edit:
    https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...%20war&f=false

    I've not read any of this book, but it's the same author and should be useful
    https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...page&q&f=false
    Last edited by Hazzard; November 13, 2019 at 03:33 PM.

  12. #32
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    Default Re: Nine Years War submod ideas thread (Update 06/08/2019)

    So how is this mod progressing? I liked the unit work that has been done so far.

  13. #33
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    Default Re: Nine Years War submod ideas thread (Update 06/08/2019)

    I hope to release this submod in the next few weeks.

    Some more previews. Mercenary Bavarian Carbineers (Spain).

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    This unit was part of the Bavarian Auxiliary cavalry in Spanish service. Technically its uniform was a blue coat with red cuffs and a tricorne. However they wore a leather buffcoat called a kollet over it, so it probably wouldn't have been visible.

    Dutch soldiers tended to have a green sprig in their caps for recognition on the battlefield in this war. This will be included as below:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Attached below L-to-R: Pikeman (Tercio of the City of Valencia - Spain). English general model. Van Horn Regiment (dragoons - Hannover); Lowenfeld Dragoons (Austria); Jorger-Herbeville Dragoons (Austria), Batte Dragoons (Austria); Vaubonne Dragoons (Austria).
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails valenciapikeman.png   britishgeneral.png   vanhorndragoons.png   lowenfeld.png   vaubvonneregt.png  

    battdragoons.png   vaubvonne.png  
    Last edited by Geronimo2006; January 18, 2020 at 12:34 AM.
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  14. #34

    Default Re: Nine Years War submod ideas thread (Update 06/08/2019)

    Looking forward to this so badly.

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    Default Re: Nine Years War submod ideas thread (Update 06/08/2019)

    Update: I'm working on some Swedish units following new information.

    During this war, it seems the karpus was more widely worne than the tricorne in this army, though both were used. I will reflect this in the mod.

    Furthermore, the pikeman was still very much in use by this nation, in contrast to the German states in particular where its use was in decline.

    While the blue/yellow uniform was theoretically introduced for infantry in 1687, in practice it was a gradual process. The coats started to have turnbacks around this time. The introduction of the uniform for the cavalry was much slower, at first being cuirassiers with breastplates and leather buffcoats, with tricornes by the end of the century. The dragoons probably wore blue/yellow, but some dragoon regiments did not. The Bohuslan Dragoons wore green/red in 1700. These details will be included in the release.
    Last edited by Geronimo2006; March 10, 2020 at 05:15 PM.
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  16. #36

    Default Re: Nine Years War submod ideas thread (Update 06/08/2019)

    Hello.Thanks for your nice work.
    May i suggest include more tricorne units?.For instance spanish units. Spanish succesion war is near the period you cover and uniforme stile are similar.
    In other hand, Imperial esplendor has nice units on early period like france or england. Could you add in as well?



  17. #37

    Default Re: Nine Years War submod ideas thread (Update 06/08/2019)

    Quote Originally Posted by Nesto View Post
    Hello.Thanks for your nice work.
    May i suggest include more tricorne units?.For instance spanish units. Spanish succesion war is near the period you cover and uniforme stile are similar.
    In other hand, Imperial esplendor has nice units on early period like france or england. Could you add in as well?



    I'm not the author, but I presume that these units cannot be added because, even if european armies already introduced to a few regiments the tricorne during the Nine Years' War, they hadn't had introduced the wide-skirted justaucorps yet, which is worn by the picture's soldiers. You see, the justaucorps was firstly introduced into european fashion by Louis XIV during the late 1660's but its skirt became wider during the late 1680's, of course among fashionable circles. During the Nine Years' War, only officers would wear the skirted justaucorps, while the soldiers of rank and file would wear the plain one. When the war ended, european armies extended the usage of the tricorne by introducing it to more regiments, and they also introduced the skirted justaucorps to the soldiers of rank and file as well. However, it was not always the case. For example, British, Swedish (Until 1706, when the uniform was replaced by the skirted classic carolean uniform) and if I'm not mistaken Dutch soldiers still provided the plain or non-skirted justaucorps to their soldiers of rank and file (Although they wore the tricorne like other armies) while the officers would wear the skirted one.

  18. #38
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    Default Re: Nine Years War submod ideas thread (Update 06/08/2019)

    I have attached a preview image of the Swedish general based on this equestrian portrait of King Charles XI. He wears a breastplate and a light blue sash over a leather buff coat (kollet). In the portait he also has a horizontal, perhaps gold or orange sash around his waist, which I will add. Also an English cuirassier (based on uniform of 9th (later 10th) regiment which kept armour until 1699).

    Quote Originally Posted by 8907654738 View Post
    I'm not the author, but I presume that these units cannot be added because, even if european armies already introduced to a few regiments the tricorne during the Nine Years' War, they hadn't had introduced the wide-skirted justaucorps yet, which is worn by the picture's soldiers. You see, the justaucorps was firstly introduced into european fashion by Louis XIV during the late 1660's but its skirt became wider during the late 1680's, of course among fashionable circles. During the Nine Years' War, only officers would wear the skirted justaucorps, while the soldiers of rank and file would wear the plain one. When the war ended, european armies extended the usage of the tricorne by introducing it to more regiments, and they also introduced the skirted justaucorps to the soldiers of rank and file as well. However, it was not always the case. For example, British, Swedish (Until 1706, when the uniform was replaced by the skirted classic carolean uniform) and if I'm not mistaken Dutch soldiers still provided the plain or non-skirted justaucorps to their soldiers of rank and file (Although they wore the tricorne like other armies) while the officers would wear the skirted one.
    It doesn't seem that the tricorne was worne in the Spanish army except for some German mercenaries before the WSS. However that type Grenadier cap was worne at some point during the Nine Years War, though some sources have grenadiers wearing broad brimmed hats at the start of the war. The bearskin base on the cap seems to have been added in 1695. Sources say that the cut of the Spanish uniforms became more like that of the French in 1695. Most Swedish grenadiers probably did not have a unique head-dress until a few years into the Great Northern War, although in 1695-1700 a Queen Dowagers grenadier regiment is mentioned, with a white mitre cap with a crown and her monogram in it (probably in blue). I don't have an image of this yet.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails swedishgeneral.png   englishcuirassiers.png  
    Last edited by Geronimo2006; April 26, 2020 at 01:06 PM.
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  19. #39

    Default Re: Nine Years War submod ideas thread (Update 06/08/2019)

    Quote Originally Posted by Geronimo2006 View Post
    It doesn't seem that the tricorne was worne in the Spanish army except for some German mercenaries before the WSS. However that type Grenadier cap was worne at some point during the Nine Years War, though some sources have grenadiers wearing broad brimmed hats at the start of the war. The bearskin base on the cap seems to have been added in 1695. Sources say that the cut of the Spanish uniforms became more like that of the French in 1695. Most Swedish grenadiers probably did not have a unique head-dress until a few years into the Great Northern War, although in 1695-1700 a Queen Dowagers grenadier regiment is mentioned, with a white mitre cap with a crown and her monogram in it (probably in blue). I don't have an image of this yet.

    Thank you for the information and above all thank you very much for making this mod, the period of the NYW to the WSS is my favorite, so I'm sure the mod will look very good. Regarding the uniforms, I suggest you make all the uniforms based on what was worn at the very beginning, at 1689 to avoid historical inaccuracies. Because, if you introduce things from the very end it may look inaccurate at 1689 and not the other way round, as old uniforms might have been worn at the end sometimes. I don't think that looking for information regarding Sweden is very difficult as the basic uniform was very simple in most cases, based on the 1687 regulation, which made most regiments wear a plain blue justaucorps coat with the color of the lining depending on regiment, a carpus, pants and stockings with a color depending on regiment as well and shoes. There was no regulation for Officers and NCO's, so they most likely wore a fashionable skirted justaucorps to be easily distinguished from the rank and file soldiers. Most likely, the first ever Swedish regiment that received the tricorne was the Livgardet, which according to 1695 regulations (If I'm not mistaken) had to wear a tricorne, although the coat was unchanged. Cavalry was also one of the earliest sectors of the army to receive the tricorn hat, so by the start of the Great Northern War most cavalry wore the tricorne, although most soldiers except the Livgardet wore the carpus, which was quite practical, but by 1704 most Swedish regiments had received the tricorne. You can check the page tacitus.nu and Hans Högman's website: http://www.hhogman.se/uniforms-army-sweden-1600s.htm as sources for the Swedish military uniforms of this time.


    By the way, what do you mean by saying that the Spanish had the same cut as the French by 1695? Does that mean that they received the fashionable skirted justaucorps? Where did you find that?

  20. #40
    Geronimo2006's Avatar TAR Local Moderator
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    Default Re: Nine Years War submod ideas thread (Update 06/08/2019)

    Quote Originally Posted by 8907654738 View Post
    Thank you for the information and above all thank you very much for making this mod, the period of the NYW to the WSS is my favorite, so I'm sure the mod will look very good. Regarding the uniforms, I suggest you make all the uniforms based on what was worn at the very beginning, at 1689 to avoid historical inaccuracies. Because, if you introduce things from the very end it may look inaccurate at 1689 and not the other way round, as old uniforms might have been worn at the end sometimes. I don't think that looking for information regarding Sweden is very difficult as the basic uniform was very simple in most cases, based on the 1687 regulation, which made most regiments wear a plain blue justaucorps coat with the color of the lining depending on regiment, a carpus, pants and stockings with a color depending on regiment as well and shoes. There was no regulation for Officers and NCO's, so they most likely wore a fashionable skirted justaucorps to be easily distinguished from the rank and file soldiers. Most likely, the first ever Swedish regiment that received the tricorne was the Livgardet, which according to 1695 regulations (If I'm not mistaken) had to wear a tricorne, although the coat was unchanged. Cavalry was also one of the earliest sectors of the army to receive the tricorn hat, so by the start of the Great Northern War most cavalry wore the tricorne, although most soldiers except the Livgardet wore the carpus, which was quite practical, but by 1704 most Swedish regiments had received the tricorne. You can check the page tacitus.nu and Hans Högman's website: http://www.hhogman.se/uniforms-army-sweden-1600s.htm as sources for the Swedish military uniforms of this time.


    By the way, what do you mean by saying that the Spanish had the same cut as the French by 1695? Does that mean that they received the fashionable skirted justaucorps? Where did you find that?
    Maybe not exactly the same. But it does seem that the uniforms became closer to those of France in 1695, I think including the justaucorps, and black became the standard hat colour, whereas prior to that point hat colours had tended to be White in Castille and black elsewhere. Certainly black hats became standard in 1695.

    I am relying on an ebook called "The Spanish Army of the Wars of the League of Augsburg" by Giancarlo Boeri, Jose Luis Mirecki and Jose Palau for most of the uniforms. However the cut of the coat in that ebook is the cut of 1698 for the infantry. This ebook sometimes differs from the plates of the Count of Clonard in the mid 19th century, which tend to show lapels or the lining of the coat turned back at the front. I am trying to reconcile these sources. My personal opinion is that there was probably a transition between the coats with the lapels early in the war to more French-style justacucorps later in the war. But the issue is one I am still considering. Another issue is that in the Ospreys ebook "The Spanish tercios", it also showsa grenadier wearing a broad brimmed hat, whereas "The Spanish Army of the Wars of the League of Augsburg" mentions the grenadiers wearing the mitre cap of the kind in the picture posted above from the War of the Spanish Succession.
    Last edited by Geronimo2006; April 27, 2020 at 01:01 PM.
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