Shieldwall - General Information and Goals

[Ngugi]

Looking good Godspeed!

[Kinjo]

Just a little update, I would like to announce that TheZuma has joined the Shieldwall team to help us accomplish our goals with some of the campaign features. Some of you might recognize him from his past projects like Seven Kingdoms mod for Attila or his King and Politics series of mods. We are very excited to have him on the team and look forward to what we will be able to accomplish with him onboard.

[ThePoshBarbarian]

Well then, looking forward to some campaign previews is on the list it seems!

Speaking of which... any one know what the new campaign map editor, Terry, does functionality wise? I think it allows you to modify textures and stuff, but I don't know what else there is to it. Anyone tried it out yet (I can't cause it seems to lag like hell)?

A posh raider fellow wuz 'ere~

[Kinjo]

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfil.../?id=892086051

I think this thread gives you a good idea of what terry can do, haven't messed with it much but will definitely look at exploring our options with the tool. If anybody out there has some skill with TEd and want to join the project feel free to send me or anybody on the team a pm.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Guys,
I've bought the game and I've played one campaign with it. IMO, it contains the best mechanics of the TW game since Medieval. It also depicts history in the most precise way possible we've seen in a vanilla TW game (it's what I'm looking for in gaming - it's why the Warhammer doesn't appeal to me).
As a good starting point it needs now the work of the moders - and here you come. I keep my fingers crossed for your work!
JoC

[geala]

What the mod descriptions say sounds really good, I would like to play it. Especially the reduction of armor is appreciated. Maybe the mod (together with the blood DLC) could finally lure me to buy the game?

Some nitpicking however: Firstly, it's bad to read of the common game flaw to think of spears as "defensive weapons, best against cavalry". This is utter garbage, as the spear is mostly also the best weapon of offense. Maybe some game balance reasons may opt for making spears worse than they actually were. Secondly, the removal of archers for the Irish, why? Did you do some research about medieval Irish archery? It is the weapon most often found in archeological excavations. I find the introduction of slingers a very good idea and the focus on javelins ok, but I would not remove archers entirely.

Some additional remarks to the Irish units: from the clothing manuals and advisory books and the spare sources otherwise we have I would say that the higher the rank, the less pants were used. I wood not use trousered figures much for armored Irish units, as armor was extremely seldomly used before about 1200 and the appearance of the Normans. Only the highest ranks should have it.

There is an interesting part in one of the medieval books for advice to the Irish nobles, that they should not go barefoot. This tells us some things, for example that it was not uncommon for nobles to go barefoot (otherwise the advice would have been superfluous) and that a lot of lower rank folks went barefoot (so the nobles had to distinguish themselves). The book might have not been overly successful, as the first travelogue we have about Gaelic Ireland (by a Spanish noble at the end of the 14th c. AD) tells us about Irish riders (surely not the poor) with bare legs who wear the spurs on their naked feet. The behaviour should be reflected in the units.

You know that Galloglass are an unhistorical unit in our timeframe. From the total absence of mentioning in the sources prior to the 13th century AD and the impact they had then, it is also highly improbable that there was a similar unit in Ireland in the early medieval period. I would get rid of them entirely, even if it is a pity gamewise.

[Kinjo]

What the mod descriptions say sounds really good, I would like to play it. Especially the reduction of armor is appreciated. Maybe the mod (together with the blood DLC) could finally lure me to buy the game?

Thank you the team is working hard on the mod!

Some nitpicking however: Firstly, it's bad to read of the common game flaw to think of spears as "defensive weapons, best against cavalry". This is utter garbage, as the spear is mostly also the best weapon of offense. Maybe some game balance reasons may opt for making spears worse than they actually were. Secondly, the removal of archers for the Irish, why? Did you do some research about medieval Irish archery? It is the weapon most often found in archeological excavations. I find the introduction of slingers a very good idea and the focus on javelins ok, but I would not remove archers entirely.

We appreciate any feedback for sure and I will do my best to answer your questions and our thoughts on the matter. With regards to spears I see where your coming from, but from my personal experience from reenacting battles and what can be seen is Wolin and SCA type battles spears can be extremely defensive. Spears can completely stall a melee between two battle lines creating a no mans land in the process which makes it very difficult to attack the other battle line unless you have spears as well. So in the case of this period and the focus on shield wall battles between two battle lines it makes sense to give spears a higher melee stat to simulate the ability to stall and to control the no man's land. What that means in game terms is there is only one melee stat now that represents both attack and defense in TOB and spears on average will have a higher melee stat to reflect this. This is something that I feel is often overlooked in books and is hard to explain unless you are actually in a melee and experience what spears and the advantage their reach really has. Check out this Wolin video to kind of get our point on spears

@about the 6 minute mark
https://youtu.be/78509ehnnnM?t=362


As for archery I did do some research and as far as I can tell most of the archaeological evidence is mostly isolated to Hiberno-Norse towns and the fact there is no mention of it at all in any of the pre-viking writings. So if there is something you know we might of missed we are always welcome new information.

http://ceathairne.blogspot.com/2012/...c-archery.html
http://what-when-how.com/medieval-ir...ieval-ireland/

Some additional remarks to the Irish units: from the clothing manuals and advisory books and the spare sources otherwise we have I would say that the higher the rank, the less pants were used. I wood not use trousered figures much for armored Irish units, as armor was extremely seldomly used before about 1200 and the appearance of the Normans. Only the highest ranks should have it.

There is an interesting part in one of the medieval books for advice to the Irish nobles, that they should not go barefoot. This tells us some things, for example that it was not uncommon for nobles to go barefoot (otherwise the advice would have been superfluous) and that a lot of lower rank folks went barefoot (so the nobles had to distinguish themselves). The book might have not been overly successful, as the first travelogue we have about Gaelic Ireland (by a Spanish noble at the end of the 14th c. AD) tells us about Irish riders (surely not the poor) with bare legs who wear the spurs on their naked feet. The behaviour should be reflected in the units.

When the mod was started is was mostly just a reskin of some vanilla units, but as the team grew it has become much more then that. The Irish are outdated compared to our newer stuff so at some point we will have to go back and update them a bit to get them on par with our newer stuff, that said shoes have been limited to mostly higher tier units but the main problem is there isn't a lot of vanilla content to work with on this front. When we go back and add our newer shield patterns we will look at our options to further improve the roster for sure.

You know that Galloglass are an unhistorical unit in our timeframe. From the total absence of mentioning in the sources prior to the 13th century AD and the impact they had then, it is also highly improbable that there was a similar unit in Ireland in the early medieval period. I would get rid of them entirely, even if it is a pity gamewise.

Yeah we are aware of it and they are left over from the vanilla reskin, but we do plan to revisit the list once we get some of the other factions done and probably replace them with a native Irish two handed axe (Lochlann) unit like in this illustration:

http://warfare.gq/WRG/Dark_Ages-40-Irish_Axeman.htm

Hopefully that answers some of your concerns and once we get the updated roster done you can check it out.

[geala]

Thanks for the answers. A good idea to go with the books of D. Head and I. Heath, I own them too. The axe warrior looks good but I hope you don't give them the ugly beard. I think the absence of armor is correctly shown, as is the rest of appearance.

Your hint of the place of the bow findings sounds interesting, I have to check.

I know such a question is very annoying but ... do you have some ideas about release? This year, next year, the year after next year, 6th of May 2019 or "in the future"?

[Johnyyy]

I know such a question is very annoying but ... do you have some ideas about release? This year, next year, the year after next year, 6th of May 2019 or "in the future"?

It's pretty hard to predict when we're going to get the mod to a full release. Our current plan is to get an Alpha/Beta version in the January of 2019th

[Asparagus]

Just wanted to say this looks great! Keep up the good work

[PhilipO'Hayda]

Am a Irish historian, tour guide, a Viking Reenactor who is also working on there masters (Once I have the money) haha would you like me to give you a hand.

[Kinjo]

Hi Philip,

I sent you a PM but feel free to join our discord server:

https://discord.gg/6JmgqsD

[Katsumoto]

Liking the look of this, keep up the good work.

[Marcus Aemilius Lepidus]

Will you change the formations, like making it possible to have a large two man deep line? I understand CA did made it impossible because in MP People exploited that, however that forces us to use some very ugly formations. For example i cam have up to 120 Horseman with my welsh General but they can't build a line, just a square because of the limitations.

[Johnyyy]

In Shieldwall you won't experience 120 horsemen in one unit, so I don't believe you'll experience that problem. The purpose of cavalry in our mod is to scout, or to run down yout enemies once they break their formation, thus their unit sizes are smaller.

I will use 2 Danelaw cavalry units as an example here:
Scout Horsemen - 24 men on ultra, as their name states, they're meant to scout the battlefield. This kind of cavalry will get massacred in a prolonged melee
Jarl's Horsemen - 48 men on ultra, they can run down fleeing enemies and flank, but to use their full potential you should use them as "mounted infantry", they will get killed pretty fast when on horseback (Battlefields of this period are dominated by spears)

[Marcus Aemilius Lepidus]

That was just one extreme example. I meant it generally. It's one of the ugly "features" that came with Warhammer. There it is impossible to have a orderly formation that is 3 lines deep. You always have the first lines nicely, but in the last line you have man missing on the flanks, because the game doesn't allow you to make large lines.

[Kinjo]

Yeah CA removed the spagati lines as it was causing too many issues in MP, in our mod units will be much smaller in general to fit the period so you will have more options to shape your battle line as far as rank depth goes. Since most of our unit sizes are even numbers 3 ranks won't be even for all units, but 3 ranks works for all of our cavvalry units so far to have even ranks.

[IHarps]

Wow, such great work. This game has enormous potential to get you totally immersed, CA really missed the ball on this one, but with this mod lads, awsome. Can't wait for more previews

[Yarev]

it is going to be awsome mod

[Nelduin]

Are you planning to create some sort of AOR system?