Mod suggestions and ideas - post your suggestions for the mod here!

[Mr_Nygren]

Yes, if you have any suggestions - post them here!

I will answer you, or anyone else in the team might do it - voice them here and we'll give you an answer if we already plan to do the changes requested, if we do not have those plans - or if we like/dislike your idea etc.

I have recently answered some suggestions over at MODDB but that forum ain't very active. Here is where we are supposed to write such things. And as such i will copy/paste what was written there recently.

[Mr_Nygren]

"Hello, I am new to all this. But a friend and I did some play testing and we have come to a few conclusions on some of the units.

Infernals are EXTREMELY op. My friend used 2000 human footman versus my 2 units of infernals and I beat him without losing a single one. Perhaps nerf them a bit? They aren't that strong in lore as far as I know.

Another one I noticed that seemed extremely powerful is the Lordaeron Royal Guard (cant remember if that is the exact name). This unit is very powerful as well, not sure if it was intended. My friend and I have been doing Lordaeron versus Stormwind battles and I have been playing Lordaeron. I choose only a few units of these guys and they completely carry me during the entire battle. We even tested them and not even 2 units of Stormwind
Vanguard versus the Royal Guard defeated them. In fact, the Royal Guard only lost 30 of the guys in the unit.Or at least give other units something to contest against them? Their weakness is against long range, but mages take dozens of shots before these guys even fall. So maybe nerf them a bit?"

Answer:

The Infernals were originally supposed to be many in numbers, but the mod cannot handle that without crashing - so they are not 3 in terms of their stats, their stats represent them being maybe 20 or 40 in numbers. We just had no choice but to use three in a unit, and as such gave them the stats to make up for the loss in numbers.

- The Infernals may seem over powered as they are only three in the field in a unit, but if you think about them as representing maybe 40 Infernals then the stats are correct. Also, use casters to kill them - because all units die easily from casters - Medieval 2 has a hardcoded limit preventing units from blocking arrows/missiles.

The Royal Guards were intended to be that strong.

Theramore, Stormwind, Stromgarde and the Scarlets still have more units to be added. Even Lordaeron - i think Stormwind in particular is in need of more elite units.

[Mr_Nygren]

"With TW Warhammer being the most moddable total war to date, with the inclusion of high fantasy features such as humanoids, large creatures, creative seige engines, units capable of flight and most importantly detailed hero units and MAGIC, would you as a team at any point consider starting to use that as the base game to mod WoW into?


I'm sure it seems quite daunting as you'd have to start from scratch and there are definitely downsides to it(pros and cons if you will), however I really think you'd find, overall, itd be less work to make a more accurate representation of warcraft in total war format.
Just for arguments sake, Ive already made a list of pros and cons that I would be ever so grateful for you to look at and consider.
Pros:

1. Baseline mod tools already provided.
2. Editable in depth magic system at every level, faction based, Unit based, character based, ritual based, etc.
3. In depth special characters system with loads of skill trees and custom items that can even be attached to special scenarios.
4. Plenty of high fantasy non-human species; elves, orks, goblins, rat-people (gnolls), undead, beast men, snake people (naga), eventually ogres, eventually demons(some people have already combined art assets to make them) etc etc.
5. High fantasy monstrous creatures; dragons, gryphons, Giants, spiders, hellhounds, bats, ghosts, etc etc.
6. No limit to # of factions.
7. No limit to # of various technical details; religion, corruption, etc etc.
8. Plenty of multiple choice mechanics for causing various faction wide changes that can be timed or initiated by situations.
9. Able to run multiple variants of a campaign so you can start from different time periods.
10. Much easier to add in plenty of minor factions.
11. Far expanded political system allowing for more accurate and detailed ways to represent why certain factions do and don't like eachother.
12. Very detailed live battle map editor allowing for wonderful iconic locations to be designed in very well recognizable and fun ways (see what people have already done for map mods in warhammer).
13. Tons of art assets already able to be worked with and very easily editable as the mod community for TW:Warhammer has already shown.

Cons:

1. Start from scratch (the most obvious, however easier to cover a lot more ground due to so many pros).
2. More difficult to edit landmasses on the campaign map.
3. Different graphics engine (still capable of running imported textures/files from previous total wars and wouldn't make it any harder to re-use art assets youre already using).

Im sure there are plenty of things I'm missing, I just really am a huge fan of both the TW series and warcraft series and have wonderful dreams about how good an accurate crossover of these could look like. Thanks for reading, with all respect��✌"

Answer: You don't have any clue do you..

"With TW Warhammer being the most moddable total war to date"

This statement is totally wrong..

- Medieval II: Total War: Kingdoms IS the most modable Total War game..

And Total War: Warhammer 2 is not - The GW doesn't allow total conversion mods, imagine someone creating a Warcraft mod for that game - no one would play the actual Warhammer.. I'd guess fear of Warcraft or Third Age is the reason they won't allow total conversions on their IP.

So no, there are no plans and will be no plans to port this mod. Mod would also be shut down immediately by the GW.

And btw, this mod ain't based on WoW - it's all about Warcraft 3 and it's expansion.

[Mr_Nygren]

"I know it's minor but the logo annoys me. It would look MUCH better if it went like "Total (planet thingy) War" and "Warcraft" underneath it for balance reasons. I know the name of the mod is "Warcraft: Total War" but the logo with that "World of Warcraft" thing looks bad. Alternatively you could just base it on the Total War logo and add the "Warcraft" font under it or make it more like the Warcraft I logo just editing the "Humans vs Orcs" text to "Total War". The current logo looks amateurish IMO. No disrespect intended, i'm loving the mod.

I also love the loading pictures, very well done, but i hate the menu pictures. Too busy. Something like a background ripped from Warcraft 3 or Wow would look better.

Also, the Scarlet Crusade are at war with Quel'thalas for some reason? I don't think that's how it should be, considering Quel'thalas will be fighting the undead and the burning legion and will probably ally with the Scarlet Crusade. Plus the Scarlet Crusade is allied with everyone else in the Alliance. When i removed the Scourge from Lordaeron and invaded Northrend as the High Elves, the Scarlet Crusade ended up being my most trusted ally.

And it would be great if we could get a new minimap.

And i've also noticed that some portraits are missing and some messages are wrong like calling High Elves as Byzantines. It's a shame because it takes from the immersion but either way it's minor and i understand the mod is still in Beta.

Another minor aesthetic problem i kinda have is that the units and the terrain don't match very well stylisticly. Total War tries to look realistic and Warcraft always tried to look kinda cartoony.

Either way, i'm loving to play this mod. It's really fun, the units look great, the map is fun as hell, the magic and flying units feel great. IMO if those minor details were addressed, plus all building models were added, this would be polished enough to feel like a real Total War game but better because actually much more fun than most and with a fascinating fantasy setting."

Answer:

The logo is the projects original one from 2009 to 2012 - we used it because this project were continued in a new form. With a new logo the mod would loose the connection to the project as seen previously. People who were following the mod would not understand it's the same mod they did follow nine years ago.

The loading pics are the work of Sulfurion/Sulphuristical mostly - and of course Eoghan Wolfkin if any of his pics are still included.

What do you mean by menu pics? The mod has different menu's.

You are wrong about the Scarlet Crusade - they are actually at war with everyone, or neutral. In Lore they did try to exterminate Prince Kael'Thaz and the Blood Elves when they were to reinforce the Alliance led by one of Lordaerons commanders - later turned Scarlet Commander.

The Scarlets are evil, but they think they are good - being the enemy of not only the traditional evil factions (undead, demons and trolls) but also of the Alliance because they think they are heathens who aren't following the Light the correct way.

- In Medieval 2 the AI and the Player can send out diplomats though, and change diplomatic relationships - so Lore will not be followed after x amount of turns. This is why the Scarlet Crusade is allied with other Humans later in your campaign. It's random and in some campaigns they even ally to the Scourge-

The real alliances are what they have when you start the campaign, and later the sandbox campaign may change things around not following the lore at all. Sometimes Lore will be followed by some. No one game is the other like.

Why would you want a new minimap? It will probably not be touched.

The unit-info portraits are an unfinished part of the mod. Sulfurion/Sulphuristical did the ones that are there now. He decides wheter he wants to continue on the pics or not. Modding is free work, we aren't earning money - it requires free time, passion and will to work for free. If he doesn't return it's up to someone else to step in- Anyone with skills are welcome to do so. Otherwise certain things will never be done.

As for Byzantium-texts i believe maybe some vanilla events are still there. But if there are units with such text then i suggest you to point to the very unit. I don't think there are any such cases.

I know about the units and field-issue - Bantu agree's with you on that. But we would need someone that has the skills to implement more cartoony fields. Or port from Hyrule/Warhammer. I don't wanna risk stability doing so.

I am glad you love the mod. The team really tried making it as good as possible based on our limited skills, limited free time etc. It's not as perfect as we would wish it to be just yet - we already have plans for about 54 new units for all the factions in total. That would mean about three to six new units for all factions. The issue is we do not know if we will finish everything or not. Our free time is running out for some, and if we will have to focus on work and income - the mod will take a backseat.

In the best case, if that were to happen - we will have a on-going but very slow development. And not like last year, were we had a very fast development because we had lots of free time.

Some of the current models are too ugly not to be replaced - such as the bandits, slimes, highwaymen and the Goblins. The Orcs are cool but may be updated, as may the Forsaken as a roster. But we never know for sure. I can tell you that we have the first three rebels already ready to be replaced as Bantu has finished new models for them. But i would like to implement new Goblins and new Orcs as well before an update.

We will attempt to improve on it any way we can. But text, pics etc are not the focus as we rather fix the gameplay, the models and add new stuff - rather than write text or pics. As for the custom settlements/buildings on the battlemap i would try to port suitable settlements from other mods. If i succeed we will at least get stuff from mods such as Hyrule or Warhammer as unique settlements. But none in the team can create such things - nor import entire cities from WoW.

So it's not very likely the cities will ever look like in WoW unless someone with great skills join the team.

As for the gameplay we will change the starting garrisons for at least one army to have most units from the start. It's not enough of a challenge i think, when they lack certain elites - and also the player often destroy certain factions before they get any cool units.

Recruitment will still take time, but they should have everything from the start in at least one army.

[Mr_Nygren]

">What do you mean by menu pics? The mod has different menu's.

The mod uses for background shots from the CGI cinematics from WC3, right? Those are what i mean. Medieval II and some other mods have a pretty clean menu, while those still shots look busy.

>Why would you want a new minimap? It will probably not be touched.

The minimap on the left side of the map doesn't look as polished as vanilla and feels like a mod unlike the minimap on Europa Barbarorum for instance. I understand it's a mod but it's just a minor detail that i wish could be addressed.

>So it's not very likely the cities will ever look like in WoW unless someone with great skills join the team.

Personally i don't think you need to. I always saw the cities and map in WoW as a kind of representation of the real world of warcraft. In Warcraft 3, Grom Hellscrem even says the have been marching for three days through the barrens, and in WoW, 3 days would be enough to go around the planet many times over and you can explore the whole of the barrens in a couple of hours. I like the way cities are designed to be random in TW games. I think just a consistency between the aesthetics of the units and the architecture would be more than enough to make the mod perfect.

Sure, stuff like the Sunwell or the Dark Portal would need a unique settlement probably, but besides that, cities like Zul'Aman look fine as they are. WoW doesn't even look like a plausible realistic world.

Either way, i'm glad the mod is advancing and the attention you guys are giving the community is amazing. I hope to see it grow and evolve a lot. Meanwhile i'll be having fun in my campaigns."

Answer:

- I added the FMV-background, and yes they are WC3 cinematics but cut - and it's not possible to use Warcraft 3 backgrounds (they would need to be turned into a BIK-format. You can only use pics or videos, and i do prefer videos - older versions of the mod had the splashscreen without the text. It is your opinion that you hate the videos, while others have stated they look cool - and that is my opinion as well. I will not change anything.

- I don't see a problem with the minimap, it were actually fixed from not showing the entire world to actually showing it - no reason to change anything.

- It's unlikely any cities will be custom unless we manage to import, and Hyrule Lanayuru cities were harder to import than i thought - i wanted those for the Naga.

- Yes, i do agree the Human and Troll settlements are good. I wish we could add custom ones for the Horde, Elven and Naga settlements. For some reason the settements refuse to show up for the naga when i tried to add them. I just got empty space without the actual city.

Alright, have fun doing that. I believe only Bantu (the modeller) is working on some models currently. I will work on implementation/gameplay when he is done - or at the later part of august. Because after that my time is up and i won't have that much time.

[Mr_Nygren]

"Hello, this is a really well made mod, and I love playing on it. But I gotta ask if there are any plans to turn Gilneas from a rebel nation to its own faction? Keep up the good work regardless, I can't way to see how far the mod will advance."

Answer:

Nope, there are no such plans.

- Two available slots (Mongols and Papal_States) will be any of the Goblins, Vrykuls, Ulduar and Zandalari Trolls.

Ulduar is one of them, the other could be anyone of the three remaining. Goblins do have vast areas but they have few possible units available, Zandalari have a great available roster but they have only an ireland-region, Vrykuls have a good amount of territory and would also add to the action in Northrend together with Ulduar but they are big units and Med2 could have similar problems with them as with the Legion.. We'll see though.

Then we have 7 unused Kingdoms-slots but those require implementation into the mod which is risky. As the mod is a Med 2 vanilla mod with some added features from Kingdoms. If we were to add those seven, then the Iron Horde (spawning), the Draenei (spawning or starting), the Defias (Baron's Alliance), two out of the three i mentioned as possile before that did not make it, Taurens and one final faction (most likely the Centaurs) would be possible. Then the true limit of 31 factions would be reached.

But to be honest, i think it's not even certain we will actually replace the two remaining faction slots that are already implemented. Ulduar could very well replace the Mongols because we kind of have a roster for them - but not the proper roster. Many units would be shared with the Dark Irons and others but just use different textures. The question is if Bantu will have the time to rig all the required models. If he does have the time i will implement all of it - if not, then they will probably use the units in use by the rebels.

[Rad]

EDIT: Observation moved to different thread.

[Rad]

I'd suggest that you make ranged units less deadly and that melee units become more durable.

From what I've seen so far, ranged units wreck havoc in this mod, making short work of melee infantry - even those that have good armor and 2 hp. Of course, some exceptions should remain - elites, elven archers etc.

Those foot units that do survive missile barages often get chewed up in melee rather fast. Lots of deaths in a small space of time.

Maybe the solution is to proportionately increase armor/defense skill/shield values and decrease melee and missile attack values?
Cavalry charges are too deadly atm.

Some average cavalry units wipe out fresh units of spearmen with a frontal charge. Even in a fantasy setting, that's too much.

Caster units are death machines - maybe make them less powerful, but more available?

I need to test gunpowder infantry more - I am getting the feeling that they aren't effective enough.

The best overall reference for unit balance I can give is Europa Barbarorum 2. I have very little idea how to fit their system into a world filled with daemons and mages, though. Maybe use it to balance the "normal" units and work your way up from there?

[Mr_Nygren]

I'd suggest that you make ranged units less deadly and that melee units become more durable.

From what I've seen so far, ranged units wreck havoc in this mod, making short work of melee infantry - even those that have good armor and 2 hp. Of course, some exceptions should remain - elites, elven archers etc.

Those foot units that do survive missile barages often get chewed up in melee rather fast. Lots of deaths in a small space of time.

Maybe the solution is to proportionately increase armor/defense skill/shield values and decrease melee and missile attack values?
Cavalry charges are too deadly atm. Some average cavalry units wipe out fresh units of spearmen with a frontal charge. Even in a fantasy setting, that's too much.

Caster units are death machines - maybe make them less powerful, but more available?

I need to test gunpowder infantry more - I am getting the feeling that they aren't effective enough.

The best overall reference for unit balance I can give is Europa Barbarorum 2. I have very little idea how to fit their system into a world filled with daemons and mages. Maybe use it to balance the "normal" units and work your way up from there?

Hello, due to an hardcoded limit of the game Medieval 2 it is impossible to defend against missile damage - defense only works against melee and cavalry attacks.

- This is the sole reason why giants die easily against missile attacks.

Nothing can be done about it, however - we are removing armor piercing for bow militias.

- Casters cannot be made weaker without rendering them useless. We won't do that, as they are supposed to be death-machines.

- Cavalry needs to be good to counter giants and others.

- Gun infantry aren't good enough but will probably be made better. An alternative will be to add mounted riflemen.

Mod is already balanced as far as i am concerned, and Bantu is improving the balance for the next version. I am done with balancing after doing all the factions, of course Sulfurion re-did it after i had done it first - now it's Bantu's turn to have a go at it. I am done so if you want balance-changes you'd have to do them yourself or hope Bantu does it right.

- Bantu has made most inf units (especially for the Trolls) have more morale.

[Rad]

Hello, due to an hardcoded limit of the game Medieval 2 it is impossible to defend against missile damage - defense only works against melee and cavalry attacks.

- This is the sole reason why giants die easily against missile attacks.

Nothing can be done about it, however - we are removing armor piercing for bow militias.

- Casters cannot be made weaker without them rendering them useless. We won't do that, as they are supposed to be death-machines.

- Cavalry needs to be good to counter giants and others.

- Gun infantry aren't good enough but will probably be made better. An alternative will be to add mounted riflemen.

Mod is already balanced as far as i am concerned, and Bantu is improving the balance for the next version. I am done with balancing after doing all the factions, of course Sulfurion re-did it after i had done it first - now it's Bantu's turn to have a go at it. I am done so if you want balance-changes you'd have to do them yourself or hope Bantu does it right.

Defense only protects from melee, ofc. What I suggested was to increase armor/defense skill/shield and decrease melee/missile attack. Armor and shield (if attacks are coming from the front or from the left) do defend against missiles.

Casters are way too powerful. One unit of mages usually scores more kills than 4 units of archers. 17 dudes with weird hats kill more enemies than 500 archers - and archers are way too strong as it is.

I'm fine with cavalry being anti-giant units, but regular infantry could be made more durable with some tweaks - besides more armor/defense skill/shield, they could benefit from bigger unit mass - if I remember correctly, that decreases the success rate of charges.

[Rad]

Small suggestion - ditch the current Scourge and Forsaken shields, make them more ragged, worn, war-torn.

[Mr_Nygren]

Small suggestion - ditch the current Scourge and Forsaken shields, make them more ragged, worn, war-torn.

If we are going to edit/change the skeletons, then the entire models will be swaped.

[Rad]

Does that have to be? You can always make a unit better, but in this case, I only suggested changing the shields. The current ones are too uniform... unscourgey

Btw, loving the mod. Once I realised how the mod functions on a grand, strategic level, I felt more at ease with the current unit balance. Right now, I am trying to destroy the Scourge on Northrend - it's one hell of a campaign!

[Mr_Nygren]

Does that have to be? You can always make a unit better, but in this case, I only suggested changing the shields. The current ones are too uniform... unscourgey

Btw, loving the mod. Once I realised how the mod functions on a grand, strategic level, I felt more at ease with the current unit balance. Right now, I am trying to destroy the Scourge on Northrend - it's one hell of a campaign!

I want the skeletons to be WoW-quality - but it's up to Bantu Chieftain if they ever will be. I would want HQ-models for all the armies in the mod. Fan-made is fine as long as they are HD-quality. The Scourge have WC3-quality and hopefully that will change with time.

Thank you, the mod is far from playable in the late-game due to the AI spaming dragons, giants and such. The update will be much better in all areas.