Handling Cavalry

[Dekhatres]

There is a thread in the RC forum with that file and the RC2.0 Guide. That EDU will not work with SS6.4 though because it references some new mount types.

i am just looking to compare your system/unit balance with mine

the only other file i am looking for is battle_config.xml because i need to know what the <melee-hit-rate> is, unless you can tell me ? xD did it remain the same as in 6.4 ?

[Point Blank]

<combat-balancing>
<missile-target-accuracy>
<infantry>1.0</infantry>
<cavalry>1.6</cavalry>
<elephants>2.2</elephants>
</missile-target-accuracy>
<melee-hit-rate>1.50</melee-hit-rate>
</combat-balancing>

I don't know what it was in 6.4.

[Dekhatres]

my backup says 2.0, so with your setting cavalry charge should be about 25% weaker


still sucks that cavalry secondary attack is insane, no wonder in 6.4 stationary cavalry could mop the floor with infantry without even charging, doesnt look any better with your mod, could be wrong but probably not

[Point Blank]

Er, cavalry gets a +2 attack bonus but a -2 defense bonus. Riders cannot attack targets directly ahead of the horse with secondary weapons and are also more vulnerable to missile weapons, see the <missile-target-accuracy> values above? There are all sorts of bonuses and mechanisms you are probably not aware of. The only special bonus cavalry gets is horse armor is added to rider armor to give an overall armor stat, but there is no real way to avoid some sort of thing like that. RC 2.0 also adds in additional categories for mounted units, such as Lancer and Brawler with associated animations and altered stats.

But ok, you're the expert, when you finish your version by all means please post your perfect cav stats.

[Strategos Autokrator]

What about decreasing their attack and morale, and in return make it so that they are recruited with 3 silver chevrons? They gain exp extremely fast and they are your crack soldiers after all. You could also remove the stamina or reduce it to hardy from very hardy, since exp gives stamina too? It does, right? Yes, I've done some testing and cavalry with exp will get exhausted slower than those without exp.

[Point Blank]

If I reduce their attack it reduces their differentiation from foot units, and as I said they already suffer a defense penalty compared. As far as experience, they can get it from tourney fields or the horse breeders guild, and the AI has one depending on the difficulty level. For stamina, almost no cavalry now has any kind of hardy trait, and heat values have been increased as well as charge distances to make cycle charging have more of a penalty. Plus there are the new mount penalties I mentioned.

[Dekhatres]

Er, cavalry gets a +2 attack bonus but a -2 defense bonus. Riders cannot attack targets directly ahead of the horse with secondary weapons and are also more vulnerable to missile weapons, see the <missile-target-accuracy> values above? There are all sorts of bonuses and mechanisms you are probably not aware of. The only special bonus cavalry gets is horse armor is added to rider armor to give an overall armor stat, but there is no real way to avoid some sort of thing like that. RC 2.0 also adds in additional categories for mounted units, such as Lancer and Brawler with associated animations and altered stats.

But ok, you're the expert, when you finish your version by all means please post your perfect cav stats.

cut secondary attack by 50-70%, you're now expert aswell and your cav stats are perfect too, you're welcome

[Point Blank]

So...Cavalry should have a secondary attack significantly less than foot units, as WELL as less defense? With what basis? Have a look at the RC2.0 Guide, foot units get all sorts of bonuses that cav do not. The way the stats are generated is a completely transparent process. If you don’t agree with it I’m always open to new ideas. Also try them in Late Era vs contemporary foot units armed with pikes and polearms, it’s a whole different ball game. The fact is that in earlier years Cavalry would generally destroy infantry disordered or caught in the open. Note that cav is also subject to unfavorable terrain modifiers when not in open terrain.

Also please read the link I posted in post #12 in this thread, it’s good stuff (y).

This mod has been developed over the course of 11 years, I put way more time into it than my MS degree I think I know what I am talking about, to some degree anyway. Military history and technology has been a passion of mine for over 40 years; I also consulted with a bunch of professional military historians and experts, such as at ATARN regarding archery, during the mod’s development.

FYI my company based in Singapore is writing a position paper on near-term developments in military technologies for the Australian military, as well as developing advanced AI simulation software (‘GameBrain’) based on deep neural networks (my thesis topic) and tensor flow technology. Pick any weapon system over the last 2000+ years - ancient, medieval, pike and shot, age of sail/Napoleonic, WW1 or 2, Cold War, modern - and off the top of my head I can tell you the relevant stats, tactical employment etc.

Anyway, try the new version when it is released, if you don’t like it you can always change the stats to your own preference, and post them as a sub mod.

Alternatively, look back over the approximately 25000 posts in this sub mod forum, I certainly don’t claim it to be perfect, it’s always evolving

[BatGoat]

The cavalry is fine how it is. People just need to utilise better strategy ingame to actually neutralise it.

[Dekhatres]

So...Cavalry should have a secondary attack significantly less than foot units, as WELL as less defense?

correct, stationary cavalry shouldnt be able to go toe to toe against infantry unless that infantry is peasants/early militias

significant reduction for secondary attack ? yes, significant reduction for defence ? no, just slightly less defence

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAmf4RTBoYk&t=1m35s (ah the nostalgia, good old 2013)

i am not claiming my solutions are perfect either mate (unless sarcastically ), but you know, if a chef puts 2kgs of salt in your food you dont need to be a chef aswell to say something is off

[Point Blank]

Cavalry cannot attack foot units in front or behind, only to the side *and* in reach, whereas any horseman can be surrounded and/or engaged by multiple footmen. Pretty much every foot weapon except swords/maces/clubs gets a bonus vs cavalry, and they usually have a significantly higher defense. Cavalry units are also of the order of 1/3 to a 1/2 the size of foot units, and have a cost 3+ times higher per horseman than a footman.

[Point Blank]

Another thing is that the attack value is not a generalized measure of combat effectiveness, it represents a single attack. So, for example, an elite mounted trooper would have a secondary attack wiith an arming sword of 10 (4 for the arming sword + 5 for elite mounted + 1 for weapon quality) while an elite spearman would have 14 versus him (3 spear + 8 long spear + 2 Elite + 1 weapon quality); an elite halberd would be 16AP. But I’m guessing you didn’t know that did you?

So so you can keep your salt and keep cooking up your own ‘balanced’ stats Anyway, this discussion is over, its becoming tiresome.

[Dekhatres]

an elite spearman

such as

EDIT: nevermind, you arent going to change mind anyway

[Sint]

The cavalry is fine how it is. People just need to utilise better strategy ingame to actually neutralise it.

It is utterly broken ,sure the player can fight it but the AI can't.The problem isn't that people can't fight them that cav is OP.Nice strawman.

So...Cavalry should have a secondary attack significantly less than foot units, as WELL as less defense? With what basis?

They sure as hell shouldn't be able to kill half a unit of heavy spears in a single charge while losing less than 10 man and then kill the rest in meele.But maybe the fact a man sitting on horse can't fight very well when standing still?That it is hard to use your shield on horseback when facing an enemy that is on your mainhand side?That it is hard facing enemies with a longer range?Once they're standing still the spearmen don't have to get in range of their swords but can stab them while the rider can not.

Have a look at the RC2.0 Guide,

That's all nice theory to bad that it doesn't work in practice.

foot units get all sorts of bonuses that cav do not.

Cleary not enough.

Also try them in Late Era vs contemporary foot units armed with pikes and polearms, it’s a whole different ball game.

A unit of lancers kills a unit of pikes in a frontal charge with 10-15 losses.A unit of feudal knights losses but still kills half a unit of pikes.

The fact is that in earlier years Cavalry would generally destroy infantry disordered or caught in the open. Note that cav is also subject to unfavorable terrain modifiers when not in open terrain.

This mod has been developed over the course of 11 years, I put way more time into it than my MS degree

To bad you haven't managed to get cavalry right.

[Point Blank]

'EDIT: nevermind, you arent going to change mind anyway'

Change it to what? You have not put forward any detailed, convincing arguments at all, or shown any comparative tests with your proposed stats. All you have done is given your opinion that you believe its 'all wrong', because...thats what you believe, for some reason.

'They sure as hell shouldn't be able to kill half a unit of heavy spears in a single charge while losing less than 10 man and then kill the rest in meele.But maybe the fact a man sitting on horse can't fight very well when standing still?That it is hard to use your shield on horseback when facing an enemy that is on your mainhand side?That it is hard facing enemies with a longer range?Once they're standing still the spearmen don't have to get in range of their swords but can stab them while the rider can not.'

Which cavalry are you talking about exactly? Are you talking about some Border Horse, or a group of Feudal Knights? And where have you formed your ideas on what cavalry should or shouldn't be able to do? You just decided because you 'feel' that way? Or did you do some research? The shield issue is HARDCODED genius, but tell me how you would fix it. In the game, the man on horseback CANNOT hit enemies out of the range of his weapon, whereas spearmen and pikemen etc can hit him. They can swarm him such that multiple opponents can get hits on him, whereas he can ONLY hit to either side.

'That's all nice theory to bad that it doesn't work in practice.'

Yeah, it does. If you don';t like it, stop whining and create your own stat system that also takes account of all the hardcoded combat and animation issues, charge mass values and hardcoded charge mechanics etc, and given that you guys want cavalry secondary attack values reduced by 70%, see how you can represent a peasant sitting on a horse with a club, up to a late era gothic knight, with an available attack range between 1-3, because thats what reducing it by 70% means.

'Cleary not enough.'

So, go ahead, explain to us exactly you would spread different bonuses around among the multiple weapon types, in a systematic and sensible fashion, to make it perfect in your esteemed view.

'A unit of lancers kills a unit of pikes in a frontal charge with 10-15 losses.A unit of feudal knights losses but still kills half a unit of pikes.'

So in a single charge, 80 Lancers kill 253 Pikemen? Oh? Which pikes? Late Era Swiss Armored Pikemen? Pike Militia? Lancers are the ultimate expression of super-heavy medieval cavalry. They were, in many cases, almost impervious to pike thrusts. Units like that often charged completely THROUGH enemy pike squares, such as at Marignano. What do you think should happen when they charge a pike unit, they should all just die? Also, for the price to recruit one unit of 80 Lancers, you can recruit 3-5 units of 250 pikemen of varying quality. Thats 10+ pikemen per rider. For additional resistance against cavalry charges, footmen can be arrayed in a deeper formation with less frontage, so less cavalry can impact the unit front, and any that do will be more readily absorbed by the increased depth. Any that cant't hit the front will only be able to flow around the side if they are open, and this will expose the flanks of the horsemen and nullify their charge. This is one of the reasons why why the Swiss pike formations usually advanced in a column.

I suppose you also believe that, in real life, cavalry never actually impacted with enemy formations it charged? So, using your example, a unit of cavalry charge a unit of spearmen. The 150 spearmen have a total bodymass of around 10000kg (150x70kg), while the 50 heavy cavalry could, including horse, rider and armor, total over 30000kg, and are charging the infantry at 25mph. So, in the single second where the spearman is at an appropriate distance, he has an opportunity to land a killing blow on the horse, in which case it will still smash into his formation and the rider may still be combat effective; or he might kill the rider, leaving him to deal with an enraged stallion that has continued smashing into his formation. And the spearman has about one second to do this, through horse or rider armor, and avoid being flattened, but will in any case likely be stunned or demoralized, and the rider will then be laying about himself with a sword etc. And notice in the above scenario that I didn't even mention anything about the horsemen using lances which will be longer than the footmen's spears either!

Did you even read the link I posted in post #12 in this thread?

'To bad you haven't managed to get cavalry right.'

It has been clearly stated in this thread that the new version of Real Combat, which will be released shortly and about which there are plenty of details available, re-works cavalry. So, in effect, you are complaining about a version of SS/RC or whatever that is many years old.

Anyway, as I said, go ahead and release your own mod, and show us how to get cavalry 'right'. Please.

[Navajo Joe]

Hell, how many times have I seen this argument about spearman v cavalry in all my years on SS, it's almost as legendary as the Longbow moans.

An excellent post above from someone who knows what he is talking about, with lots of valid points.

Cavalry of any type do not present me problems, if you have the right force composition, make sure you have x-bows, javelinmen and your own cavalry, your able to counter.

You also need to consider the terror factor of men on horses moving at speed on infantry with either a spear or a sword, without adequate training and discipline. You might want to watch a history programme by Dan Snow, where he was charged by the Household Cavalry, swishing their cutlass, its hear rate went from 60 to over a 100.

[Point Blank]

Yes its a perennial argument. In the new RC, any cavalry with a melee level of Superior or better gets the frighten_foot attribute, and pikes get frighten_mounted. I have adjusted the battleAI to further reduce the desirability of cav engaging pikes and spears as well.

Aside from the actual outcomes of cav vs spears/pikes, in reality cav of whatever quality would certainly avoid engaging them head-on if at all possible - given the expense and scarcity of good cav units, its not generally a good exchange on many levels.

Even if not riding heavily-armored mounts, it was possible for cav to engage pikes though, look at the example of Polish Hussars vs the Swedes, the Poles used extra-long lances and were quite successful. And of course, pikes are very vulnerable from the sides and rear. They have an extremely low defense value, usually 0 or 1, and their animations have been adjusted so that they turn to the sides or rear rather slowly, to represent how unwieldy pikes are. Plus, if you can get past the pike points, they can't deploy them vs cav in close melee, and cav with 'Brawler' animations push forward quite aggressively.

The M2TW engine is really quite remarkable in the way it can handle all this.

Finally, the frontal gap between pikemen varies from 1.0 for Elite units like Swiss, up to 1.3 for Militia. Given that the *maximum* x-radius for cavalry is, by design, 0.55 (and this would be for a heavily armored and large mount), this enables them to get in amongst lower-quality pikes more easily - these units also often have the untrained attribute, leading to a more ragged formation.

Specialized anti-pike units such as Sword-and-Buckler Men and Doppelsoldners have adjusted animations and x-radii to slip in amongst pikes more easily, and also have an 'aggressive' animation set such that they push forward into their formation more.

There has been a lot of thought and experimentation put into depicting pikes as well as possible. Their formations and unit spacing, and how the AI handles them, have also been further adjusted.

As I have said before, its very interesting to play Late Era battles, because of the preponderance of infantry armed with pikes, polearms and firearms - a frontal charge by cavalry into such a formation can be suicidal. The AI does much better in Late Era, because in earlier ones its often the human player's superior use of his cavalry which carries the day. I frequently lose to the AI in Late Era even match-ups, leading to frequent rage-quitting haha.

[Judeman266]

The AI responds pretty well in Late Era. I'm looking forward to seeing the new performance with the army advancing with the Musketeers.

[Judeman266]

Hell, how many times have I seen this argument about spearman v cavalry in all my years on SS, it's almost as legendary as the Longbow moans.

An excellent post above from someone who knows what he is talking about, with lots of valid points.

Cavalry of any type do not present me problems, if you have the right force composition, make sure you have x-bows, javelinmen and your own cavalry, your able to counter.

You also need to consider the terror factor of men on horses moving at speed on infantry with either a spear or a sword, without adequate training and discipline. You might want to watch a history programme by Dan Snow, where he was charged by the Household Cavalry, swishing their cutlass, its hear rate went from 60 to over a 100.

In modern scenarios, even when people know the horses won't charge them, particularly in films and tv shows, men panic. So it is right on point that people's heartrate's rise when charged by cavalry. I think that sometimes we forget that we are animals with instincts from hundreds of thousands of years that tell us when a large animal charges you, run. The type of discipline for a unit of men to overcome that fear and maintain a front was extremely rare in the time of military levies. The development of infantry in the Middle Ages actually makes sense in context. As states become more organized and centralized, their ability to raise disciplined, trained anti-cavalry infantry in significant numbers rises.

[Point Blank]

Yes exactly and we can see that in game terms with Late Professionals having the ‘disciplined’ and ‘highly_trained’ attributes becoming more common in later years (y)