Life after Death : are we going to dance among ghosts and have a toast to our legacy?

[R.P. Gryphus]

Greetings fair ladies and honorable sires!


When I woke up this morning I was struck by an existential question that I came to share with you and I hope that it will initiate an intelligent discussion and consequently an interesting one. One thing has always intrigued me, probably the whole human race too in the course of its short existence, and its is there something after death? Big question, I know! As far as I'm concerned, I can immediately confirm that no, I do not believe in life after death, or at least not in the way that most people conceive it. I am too rational to have the luxury of having some kind or any kind of faith. Faith has become a completely alien concept to my brain. I have no faith in any god, nor in the human race, nor in myself. I know or I don't. Moreover, death is a human concept to explain what cannot and will never be explained. Death does not exist.


That being said, I once believed. I had faith in Jesus our Lord for many years. I talked to him, I asked him things, I prayed and cursed him. I went to church and I questioned some of my actions fearing of His judgment. Shortly, I once was a Christian. All of this ended abruptly when my father died in front of me when I was 12 years old. My faith had already begun to eroded before his death. I lived with him and my mother-in-law and I was partly very, very happy, but on the other hand very, very unhappy too because they often quarreled. I suffered the consequences of course and I did not understand why.


We played a lot with my head after his death, people were not sure how to comfort a child who had lost his father, his model, his hero. I was told things like "he will always be near you", "he sees you right now", "he is so proud of you", "he is good where he is", "he has stopped suffering", "he will always walk beside you", and so on. Nice crap. That may have been the biggest contributor to me losing faith definitely because ... for **** sake where the hell was my father? I looked for signs, I sought God, but I never found anything. Why did they abandon me? Where was he during my prom? Where was he for my 18 year old birthday? Where was he when my daughter was born?


It was difficult to move forward for the rest of my life, it was painful and even frightening because I had lost the lighthouse that only faith knows how to be in such dark times. I became pessimistic and skeptical, but my curiosity was quadrupled. I wanted answers. I want answers. I seek them, I find them, otherwise I continue to search. And what's good is that my quest is your quest, and your quest is mine. Your findings will be mine, as mine will be yours. So my quest took me to question religion, its origins, its sources. So I did some research. And historically speaking, we have managed to determine that Jesus of Nazareth did indeed exist.


I know he existed because the evidence is unequivocal. And even if I do not believe in God anymore, I know that Jesus was a real inspiration after all. He tried to change the world and he succeeded, to say the least. However, there is still a lot of speculation as to his life, how it ended and where. Some research suggests that he did not died on the cross. He had an uncle with significant financial means and good relations with Roman officials. Jesus would has been took down from the cross and exiled with his wife and children in the south of France, in the region of present-day Marseille.


You must understand that, whether true or not, it is much closer to reality than the Bible can ever be in my opinion. It is based on rigorous research and careful observation. And in this same order of ideas, let me finally share with you what I "believe" in, if I really am capable of such a thing. And it's based, as far as I know, on science. So do not hesitate to refute what I "believe" or rather what I believe I know, I'll seek the truth as soon as I read you.


It was observed that nothing can be created and nothing can be completely annihilated (the reason why the word Creator is so prestigious). All that exist already existed. Therefore, all that composes us, all that composes our chair or our car, is matter that existed long before we walked the Earth. And if nothing can be created or destroyed ... where do we come from and where will we go when our body perishes? And our consciousness (or spirit, soul, etc.) ... where will it go? We know that our brain is a hard drive that works with energy that our blood cycle generates (the only source of renewable energy that exists?). This energy cannot disappear if we turn to my first sentence of this paragraph. So inevitably there is something after death, but not for our conscience, our identity, I think. There is something after death for all the matter that makes us who we are. It will be recycled and possibly redistributed.


I see life a bit like the way rain is created. Pregnancy being the time that condensation reaches a certain height in the sky, and life the journey of a drop of water before it returns to the ocean that has released it. The pregnancy seems long and the formation of life is really laborious, but life seems to pass at the speed of a shooting star. The drop is recycled, decomposed, and others will be formed, one day, by elements they will share, but not simultaneously since the previous drop will never exist again (the probabilities forbid it).


I do not know if I managed to make myself understood... As Einstein put it so well, "if you cannot explain a concept to a 6-year-old child, it's because you do not understand it yourself" and that's probably true. I still doubt the realism of what I think I know. For the moment, that's what I know. I am nevertheless very open-minded and ready to read your versions of faith, of life after death or all that this text may have inspired you. I leave you with a quote from the greatest artist that this world has known in my opinion, resuming quite extraordinarily the extent of my faith, if any :

"If like me, stunned by the world, by the inebriation of the ages, by the madness of others, if you still do not know, believe like me who tries to believe that the essential was not to know, but to never stop the search for those who will come after us."

Faith is a seductive concept and sometimes I wish I could be possessed by it, I bet that it would have safeguarded me against many anxieties, innumerable follies and would have allowed me to be more successful in many aspects of my life... but I'm afraid that no matter how hard I try, I'll never be invested by it.


I'm condemn to know. Or to not know. Without nuance.


P.S. I do not claim to be a scientist or to have the infused science, I share my thoughts to create an instructive experience, so please stay kind and respectful! Also english is not my native language, so I'm sorry if there's any incomprehensible sentences and don't hesitate to point them out so I can correct myself.

[95thrifleman]

How does it matter?

Live you life to the full extent, worry about the next life when you die.

[R.P. Gryphus]

Well I don't think that's the point of this thread nor this forum, is it? So if you don't mind, maybe you could elaborate on what your beliefs are in regards of life and death or simply about what you think of faith? Cheers.

[95thrifleman]

Well I don't think that's the point of this thread nor this forum, is it? So if you don't mind, maybe you could elaborate on what your beliefs are in regards of life and death or simply about what you think of faith? Cheers.

That's exactly what I believe. I'm a pagan, the norse tradition has two basic options when we die.

Option 1) Valhalla, feasting, drinking, weapons training and then we fight a massive battle and everyone dies.

Option 2) Hel's hall, not so much in the way of drinking and feasting but in the end you get shoved onto a boat and forced to fight a massive battle and everyone dies.

So, what does it matter? Sure I'd like option a but in the end both options result in the same thing. Ragnarok is not some paradise but a celestial reset button.

What matters is not the next life but this one, what I do and say, what I believe in. If I'm true to my word, have the confidence and conviction of my beliefs and teach these virtues to my daughter then my life has meant something. I have an obligation to LIVE, to make the most of each dawn and appreciate each sunset, to fill my life with experience.

To live with honour, courage and the joy of each breath.

Christians spend so much time worrying about the next life they fail to live in this one. Christians have a religion they will die for, I have a faith I will LIVE for.

[R.P. Gryphus]

Well thanks to share this with me, even though it's probably not a common belief nowadays, but I don't think you get the point of this thread. One doesn't preclude the other. We can discuss the matter of our belief without being a waste of time. You sure seem to have some time to come here and comment, why would other people not be able to do the same thing by discussing their belief without them being prisoner of an irrelevant quest for knowledge?

What matters is not the next life but this one, what I do and say, what I believe in. If I'm true to my word, have the confidence and conviction of my beliefs and teach these virtues to my daughter then my life has meant something.

Am I to understand that because this life AND the next, if there's any, matter to me I'm preventing myself to be the better version of myself and also preventing ,myself of being a good father to my daughter? Doesn't make sense if that's the case and this thread is definitely not about what "matters" for everything matters in some degree and depending on the individual we are discussing with. It's also not about christian nor islam or norse mythology, it's simply about : is there something after life? If all the great minds of this world had follow your way of thinking, we would still be at the Neanderthal level I think. We can live with honor, courage and joy while also searching for the truth of our nature and foundation.

Anyway, it does matter to me and I'm sure to a hell lot of other people and we are obliged to at least respect their need for answers. Thanks for you time and no offense.

P.S. You have an obligation not to only live, but to make everything around you better for the ones that come after you (like your child) and the way to do this is by asking question to people and to our own self, to question everything, and just like you said, quite paradoxically to the rest of your post, "to fill your life with experiences" and make the better of it.

[95thrifleman]

I understand the point of your thread and trying to get across a viewpoint. You make the assumption that I do not question, but I do.

Is ragnarok literal? I don't know, but it's the concept that the next life, whatever it is, is inconsequential to this one.

I've known allot of death, 3 of my class mates died in Northern Ireland trying to protect two communities that hated each other. I knew the navigator that was killed in the friendly fire instant back in the gulf war, a totaly meaningless death. My grandfather served in the RN on sub-hunters and then on D-day as part of a RN signal party only to die of cancer, all skin and bones, a ghost of a man.

What's the point of these lives, some cut short, some ending in pain and despair?

I was raised a catholic, studied the bible and began a theological journey. I've studied the big three, christianity, islam and judaism. I've delved into the concept of reincarnation, the concept of Shinto ancestor worship and the inter-connected theology of the aborigines.

I studied history, saw how much blood has been shed on matters of faith, genocide and destruction on interpretations of ink on paper. I've tried to fond meaning and the one thing that speaks to me is the simple concept, what does it matter?

I think making the best of this life is all we can do, the next life is a total unknown and by definition, unknowable. There are so many questions and mysteries in the world of the living, from the mundane to to the metaphysical. Questions we can answer, maybe not today but tomorrow perhaps.

THIS is what gives us our drive. Steven Hawkings was given a death sentence, told he'd only live to his early 20's. Had he focused on the next life I have no doubt he'd of died at that early age but his drive his focus was in the mysteries of THIS life and his mind was a key that, quite literaly, unlocked secrets of the universe itself.

It is the obsession with the afterlife that held back cultures, not just christians and muslims but others sch as the egyptians. Cultures that embraced this life, this existence gave birth and sustenance to science, art and technology.

That is not to say the afterlife has not inspired in it's own way, I have a great love for Dante's Inferno and Paradise Lost, I think there is a danger in focusing on the next world.

[R.P. Gryphus]

I understand your point and partially share it, but what I don't understand about your post is the lack of nuance. Sometimes it is most necessary to have some and not always jump to extremities. No one is speaking about an obsession of the afterlife (or for that matter any of your mythology references). I feel like you're mistaking this thread for another debate, probably a wider and more in depth one? Not that I wouldn't like to be part of it, but I don't want us to distance ourselve from the subject here, which is not about WHY we should or should not wonder what comes next, but actually and more simply WHAT we think comes next and share our experiences that made us think that way. If it doesn't interest you, which seem to be the case, I respect and understand that. But I'd like people to also understand that the purpose of this thread is discussing what people think comes next and not why we should or should not pursue this existential quest. Stephen Hawkings maybe wasn't obsess by the afterlife, but it would be foolish to deny that as the genius he was, he did question his existence and more widely the existence of mankind. And as far as I know he was limited as much as we all are by our human nature, so there is no doubt that to some degree he was interested in what becomes of our mind after our body perish, especially in his condition.

Thanks again for sharing some of your background with us.

[95thrifleman]

Fair enough, the meat and bones of it? As I said, I follow a nordic tradition and while the specifics may not be as fanciful I do believe in the Nordic interpretation of the afterlife. In that there is a period of waiting and then all of us will be involved in the ending of this cycle of existence and the next shall begin.

Why? I could be simple and say it's what I "feel" is right, but that is perhaps too vague byt is the very definition of faith. There are other faiths that follow similar interpretations of an ending and rebirth, and if more than one culture across the spectrum of human habitation and civilisation, has come to believe in this concept perhaps it has more susbstance?

Also it follows the natural cycle we see around us, the fall of the seasons. The cycle of life, death, rebirth is one we see on the small and large scale so perhaps it i true that that same cycle exists on a larger, meta-physical sense?

So to answer your question (and apologies for my misunderstanding and going on a tangent), I believe the afterlife is/will be a preperation for the ending of all things. All that is, was and will be, gods and daemons, angels an devils will destroy each other in a last, symbolic act before the start of the next meta-pyhsical cycle of existence.

[R.P. Gryphus]

In that there is a period of waiting and then all of us will be involved in the ending of this cycle of existence and the next shall begin.

There are other faiths that follow similar interpretations of an ending and rebirth, and if more than one culture across the spectrum of human habitation and civilisation, has come to believe in this concept perhaps it has more susbstance?

Also it follows the natural cycle we see around us, the fall of the seasons. The cycle of life, death, rebirth is one we see on the small and large scale so perhaps it is true that that same cycle exists on a larger, meta-physical sense?

And that is exactly what I meant, or maybe a bit on a different degree, about the drop of water being the symbolic of our lives. Where we differ, for what I understand, is that I don't think we will have an identity after we perish, for what we call our soul (or energy I guess) will be dispersed and merged to all the residual energy around us and around the Earth (generated by the Earth itself?). So when the next life shall begin, the next era for Earth, no one will be around... and everyone will still be here at the same time. I don't know if what I'm saying is comprehensible, but if not I'll try to make it more clear. I'm just saying that scientifically speaking we cannot disappear, not physically nor energetically, but the way we are assemble, the way we are harmoniously assemble, which makes us the way we are and gives us our identity won't ever happen again in the history of the whole universe. Sorry had to write this one fast, I'm called away! Thanks again mate and no worries, I like the way our discussion went. You have my respect!

[R.P. Gryphus]

Anyone else would like to share their thoughts about what they think comes after death, spiritually or physically speaking (the latter in a broader sense of course, we all know we feed the worms when we die)?

[basics]

Of course there is life after death but there are only two options which our Creator, Jesus Christ laid out when He was on the planet. The Bible gives two vivid descriptions, one, the garden of Eden and two the story of the rich man and poor man when they died.

[Muizer]

I'm just saying that scientifically speaking we cannot disappear, not physically nor energetically, but the way we are assemble, the way we are harmoniously assemble, which makes us the way we are and gives us our identity won't ever happen again in the history of the whole universe

There's no reason to think otherwise. Assertions to the contrary invariably do not transcend the boundaries of human story telling to gain a foothold in a wider, observable reality.

For me, if there's one thing coming close to a religious experience in this life it's realising that we're the first generation of humans ever, and possibly the first beings anywhere, to have somewhat pieced together what our place in the universe is. We roughtly know how the universe originated, how our solar system came into being, how our world and its living creatures developed, what happened in human (pre-)history, what's happening now all over the world and to some extent even things that will happen long... long after we're gone. Compare that to lives lived concerned with the mundane in a mental world of myopic superstition our recent ancestors were confined to, and many still choose to confine themselves to today.

[Prodromos]

For me, if there's one thing coming close to a religious experience in this life it's realising that we're the first generation of humans ever, and possibly the first beings anywhere, to have somewhat pieced together what our place in the universe is. We roughtly know how the universe originated, how our solar system came into being, how our world and its living creatures developed, what happened in human (pre-)history, what's happening now all over the world and to some extent even things that will happen long... long after we're gone. Compare that to lives lived concerned with the mundane in a mental world of myopic superstition our recent ancestors were confined to, and many still choose to confine themselves to today.

But these are the How's of existence, which can be answered to a good extent by the physical sciences (natural philosophy, i.e., the second philosophy), but as for the Why's, those questions can only be answered by religion (metaphysics, i.e., the first philosophy). Our having answered many of the How's of life doesn't negate the need for religion. Religion and science answer different questions, the latter can't 'disprove' the former.

“Men who know very little of science and men who know very little of religion do indeed get to quarreling, and the onlookers imagine that there is a conflict between science and religion, whereas the conflict is only between two species of ignorance.” - Robert Millikan

Modern humanity is certainly more knowledgeable regarding matters of the physical world, though I doubt the average member of the population is particularly knowledgeable. However, when it comes to matters of the spirit, this generation is profoundly ignorant.

Man is inherently religious. The trouble with abandoning God is that you don't become godless, but rather you begin to attribute divinity to something else. Far from an enlightenment, irreligion, in fact, is simply false religion.

[Muizer]

But these are the How's of existence, which can be answered to a good extent by the physical sciences (natural philosophy, i.e., the second philosophy), but as for the Why's, those questions can only be answered by religion (metaphysics, i.e., the first philosophy). Our having answered many of the How's of life doesn't negate the need for religion. Religion and science answer different questions, the latter can't 'disprove' the former.

Historically religion has concerned itself very much with the physical realm and there's no reason to think it will ever reach this ultimate metaphysical retreat because by that time it will no longer satisfy people's needs. I know what you say has been brought up very often by believers, but they never actually take the step of reducing their own religion to these bare bones. If they did, they'd realise there'd be very little of it left.

[fkizz]

Man is inherently religious. The trouble with abandoning God is that you don't become godless, but rather you begin to attribute divinity to something else. Far from an enlightenment, irreligion, in fact, is simply false religion.

Very good. Paying attention to this fact opens gates to a lot of new ideas

[Candy_Licker]

What happens after death? Eternal oblivion. I daresay it's a pretty similar experience to pre-birth.

Epicur got it right. We don't know how things came to be, why there is even such a thing as a universe. But no matter what, humans are no different than ants, flies or bacteria. Life forms that only exist because of chance, and live & perish.

It's foolish to think there's bliss or salvation waiting for individual beings known as homo sapiens.

I admire all those who have the mental strength to accept this and still are able to enjoy life.

But all the same, there's enough humans at work who think death can be defeated. But we all know that immortality (or rather a-mortality) + reproduction will lead to catastrophe since the planet is already at it's limit.

So cheating death would only be a thing for the few, and that would be terrible. The only think that consoles me is that a Henry Kissinger or Paul Singer will end up as worm food too.

[basics]

That we can go back into the dark recesses of time to find that man has for some reason searched the skies for something that demonstrates our existence is unquestionably more factual than the thought that we just appeared out of nowhere and why was that? Simply put man knew about God. He knew about Him because he was much closer to Him at that time. He knew what Adam had done and the consequences of it and out of that religion sprung up but as we know it wasn'r enough, the flood awaiting. Thankfully there was a man who did grasp what God wanted and subsequently only him and his family survived the second judgement of God on all men. Unfortunately there's always one in a family who doesn't think or feel like the others and so one of Noah's sons set up the first of many false religions that would explode across the globe as man expanded. Even so men still believed there was a God, it's just that their interpretation of Him was so different from the One True God. It comes as no surprise that such were the numbers of gods that thinking men began to wonder which if any actually were gods and so we had a quite different but appealing system that attracted much of the world and still does. My point is that there is still One True God, His Saviour and Comforter stirring the hearts and minds of many giving them the security of knowing that for them life is just beginning.

[Prodromos]

Historically religion has concerned itself very much with the physical realm and there's no reason to think it will ever reach this ultimate metaphysical retreat because by that time it will no longer satisfy people's needs. I know what you say has been brought up very often by believers, but they never actually take the step of reducing their own religion to these bare bones. If they did, they'd realise there'd be very little of it left.

I'd actually describe religion as the exact opposite of bare bones. Science can only tell us what is and, to an extent, how things came to be, but religion deals with much more important questions that won't ever go outdated: why things happen and what we ought to make happen. Even if you were concerned only with matters of science, you could only examine them through the lens of metaphysics, since science is rooted in metaphysical beliefs. That's why science is described as the second philosophy, while metaphysics is the first philosophy. Historically religion and science were both the realm of theologians, who viewed science as a form of worshiping God.

Very good. Paying attention to this fact opens gates to a lot of new ideas

And hopefully closes the gates to all kinds of destructive worldly ideologies.

[95thrifleman]

Allot comes down to religion v personal faith and the inherent flaws in certain religious texts.

It can not be argued that almost all organised religions devolve into political establishments than enslave people to the will of the clerical elite who get to determine what god says. We see this in history, the worst historical atrocities occur when a religion is used to justify a political ideal. The believers are ignorant of the politcal ends of their actions, blindly believing they are doing god's work without question.

What changed Europe? What brought us out from dark age barbarism? People turning from organised religion to personal interpretation which allowed for the development of free ideas and progress.

The process was long and had many setbacks, we see many of these groups start as free thinkers only to be taken over by demagogues and becoming restrictive and oppressive. Look at the contradiction of America, a nation overwhelmingly linked with christianity yet that same christianity justified the genocide of native americans and slavery.

The road from Crusaders locking jews in the Jersalem synagogues before setting them on fire to today's secular society has been a long one. However those same interpretations and justifications that caused the greatest acts of barbarism in human history are still there, waiting for a demagogue to find an excuse to overturn secularism.

[Muizer]

I'd actually describe religion as the exact opposite of bare bones. Science can only tell us what is and, to an extent, how things came to be, but religion deals with much more important questions that won't ever go outdated

They'll be outdated when there's no one left to ask them. Just like they didn't exist before there was anyone to ask them. They're bound to our human selves.

why things happen and what we ought to make happen.

The problem with your philosophy is that it does not salvage any practical instance of religion. It just salvages a skeleton concept of religion. However, when you retreat into a space that is impervious to scientific probling, you enter one from which no one answer is worth believing more than any other, which in turn means you might as well believe nothing, though you could believe anything you want. That's not something that will satisfy this human craving for religion. Historically speaking, I'd go so far as saying that isn't religion at all.

Historically religion and science were both the realm of theologians, who viewed science as a form of worshiping God.

Indeed, and over time we've come to the conclusion that religion as a starting point for scientific inquiry has no added value at all. If anything, the opposite. In short,practical instances of religion so far have failed to conform to your concept of religion. So why even bother with your concept when we discuss religion?