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Thread: Life after Death : are we going to dance among ghosts and have a toast to our legacy?

  1. #41

    Default Re: Life after Death : are we going to dance among ghosts and have a toast to our legacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Sar1n,

    What evidence? It's all supposition to fit a theory that is unprovable in itself. I mean the story of the Big Bang takes more delusional faith to believe in it than does the Bible's explanation for how we got here yet all you guys just accept it as fact, why? Because that's what the world of science wants you to believe. Paul puts it into perspective in Romans when he writes that man would rather worship the created than the Creator.
    The evidence, both for scientific process in general and geology specifically, is plain to see and easily accessible in vast amount of literature, and we've been over this before. By now, I can only consider this willful ignorance.

    But to be honest, even if I had a choice, purely on faith, between submission to such capricious god as is the one you believe in and agnostic/atheist alternative, I'd choose the latter.

  2. #42
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Life after Death : are we going to dance among ghosts and have a toast to our legacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    conon394,

    I have no problem with the flood or any other event written of in the Bible for it gives us great detail of how the world was before it and how it is now. Indeed we can all see the mighty power that water has if unleashed even at the local level. Back then we can read that the earth was one mass but when the flood came coupled with volcanic action it split apart creating mountain ranges as well as great undersea chasms alongside cutting out great chasms like the Grand Canyon. Before it the land was pretty much low lying which allowed for the passage of the Ark as it rode out the storm. So, in the space of a year the flood did what you guys think evolution did over billions of years without you having any evidence to prove that. I mean many put store into global warming melting all the ice caps and flooding great swathes of land yet as far as the flood is concerned it's all hogwash despite many nations able to know of it even if by folklore.
    There simply is not enough water. Mountain ranges have easily measured different ages as does the grand canyon

    " Before it the land was pretty much low lying" Really the bible describes world topography as such where?

    "So, in the space of a year the flood did what you guys think evolution did over billions of years without you having any evidence to prove that. "

    Evolution, I think you mean geology. The observable facts say otherwise that the Geology of today is not the product of singular event. You do realize a global flood as you would would a easily visible and recognizable mark in polar ice cores yet none exist. Also The arc story would imply a easy recognizable and similar genetic bottleneck in all animals at the same time.

    "I mean many put store into global warming melting all the ice caps and flooding great swathes of land yet as far as the flood is concerned it's all hogwash despite many nations able to know of it even if by folklore."

    The flood yes I agree folklore, global warming sorry science.

    What evidence? It's all supposition to fit a theory that is unprovable in itself. I mean the story of the Big Bang takes more delusional faith to believe in it than does the Bible's explanation for how we got here yet all you guys just accept it as fact, why? Because that's what the world of science wants you to believe. Paul puts it into perspective in Romans when he writes that man would rather worship the created than the Creator.
    Well your jumping a round a bit. But you left out if it is belief you after you should remember you have two fights not just a binary situation of the consensus scientific view of creation from big bang to now and your own particular religion. You have to consider there are and and have been lots of religions. But I suppose you take your Romans quote (1:25 - If you are going to quote bible passages I find it rude or perhaps intentionally misleading that you do not cite your verse). to wave away all other religions. But how do you deal to bald faced hypocrisy of Romans 2:4 "do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience" Yep crates a paradise for his first two people who then make a mistake and damns all of his own creation with attainder of the blood for thousands of year until he gets around to providing a get out sin card but in a way that lets people dangle for more hundreds and thousands of years since fancy that most of world did not live in Judea and could not find it on a map if they had or cared to know about it.

    The universal flood has enough backing by many nations who all can tell of it.
    Flood myths are common true. But a survey of them does bear out a universal image of a world wide one , rarely a cataclysmic one as you would have and altogether not a consistent one.

    Consider how minor the flood myth is in Greece. First the the Greeks did not live in dread of floods like Babylonians or other nearby peoples. The earliest firm reference is the 5th century BC and even a tenuous name in line in Pindar only gets a few more decades. It gets a bit more popular is story telling but not religion in the Hellenist era but than again that would be after long acquaintance with the Babylonian type flood stories (as in the bible) That's a problem as the key aspects of Greek religion can be traced back in many cases to Mycenaean or Minoan times. Nor are there any particular shines to Deucalion and Pyrrha not in folds of Parnassus were they landed (after maybe a week - mountains already there - in what amounted to small 2 person boat), not in Athens, or Syracuse, Pella, Corinth, of any other major polis with fine Archaeological records.
    Last edited by conon394; September 26, 2018 at 07:14 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  3. #43
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    Default Re: Life after Death : are we going to dance among ghosts and have a toast to our legacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sar1n View Post
    The evidence, both for scientific process in general and geology specifically, is plain to see and easily accessible in vast amount of literature, and we've been over this before. By now, I can only consider this willful ignorance.

    But to be honest, even if I had a choice, purely on faith, between submission to such capricious god as is the one you believe in and agnostic/atheist alternative, I'd choose the latter.
    Sar1n,

    Think of the scientists who stood against what was believed in their time and consider Dr. Robert V. Gentry and the opposition he has to his work on the formation of rocks based on radio halos. I recommend reading his book on that research, Creation's Tiny Mystery. You talk of willful ignorance so I bet that as of now you'll be searching for anything that can debase what that scientist has discovered without reading his book. The halos prove that the foundational rocks are not old by evolutionary numbers at all. So, I may be ignorant about many things yet science as a whole appears willfully ignorant on his findings as they upset the applecart about evolution.

    conon394,

    Have you ever read the Bible? A scientist on a BBC programme declared that the earth is like a giant sponge soaked in water and that gave me some sort of perspective of what the Bible says of those days before the flood. There was one landmass with mountains but these mountains were no more than high hills verified by the siting of Jerusalem as being on the mount of Olives. The Ark therefore could safely float over these high hills without getting stranded as it never ventured to where mountains as we know them were being thrust up by the subterranean violence that was happening elsewhere. The water canopy that was above was no more as it had deluged the earth and when time for it to recede came it flowed into all the recesses that the earth's upheaval had made, hence the scientist able to say that the earth is a giant sponge.

    As for all the animals that died in the flood, they would have been no different from their offspring taken on board the Ark. They were all to their own kind. I refer your geology to the points I made to Sar1n. There never has been nor will there ever be a missing link to cross species evolution.

  4. #44
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    Default Re: Life after Death : are we going to dance among ghosts and have a toast to our legacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Dr. Robert V. Gentry
    Yes a man who failed his dissertation and can't seem to get published in any peer reviewed journal (the bits about polonium dating a young earth creationism). Impressive. You might consider the biggest problem he has. He allows only Polonium a constant decay rate, but argues that somehow the decay rate for all other elements has altered without basis in fact.

    Have you ever read the Bible?
    Yes

    A scientist on a BBC programme declared that the earth is like a giant sponge soaked in water and that gave me some sort of perspective of what the Bible says of those days before the flood.
    Ahh you mean the tiny fraction liquid trapped in Ringwoodite. Calling it a sponge is a bit misleading. The water trapped in the mineral is chemically bound not distict as in a sponge. In any its at the boundary between the inner and outer mantel to be released by geological event would be beyond something as catastropic as the your flood it likely require the collapse of the planet.

    As for all the animals that died in the flood, they would have been no different from their offspring taken on board the Ark. They were all to their own kind. I refer your geology to the points I made to Sar1n. There never has been nor will there ever be a missing link to cross species evolution.
    Whatever you are sidestepping the fact your flood event would have created a measurable and detectable genetic bottle neck in all living land animals. A recent and extreme one. The notable difference of absence in fish would be a comparable. No such data exists.

    There was one landmass with mountains but these mountains were no more than high hills verified by the siting of Jerusalem as being on the mount of Olives.
    Chapter and verse and translation please - why do refuse to provide your references. I see no point in your last bit???

    The Ark therefore could safely float over these high hills without getting stranded as it never ventured to where mountains as we know them were being thrust up by the subterranean violence that was happening elsewhere. The water canopy that was above was no more as it had deluged the earth and when time for it to recede came it flowed into all the recesses that the earth's upheaval had made, hence the scientist able to say that the earth is a giant sponge.
    You clearly have no ideal how Ringwoodite is formed. It been done in labs. It would take billions of years for water to be reabsorbed into the lower mantel as Ringwoodite again. But I tend to forget observable facts are not your problem
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  5. #45

    Default Re: Life after Death : are we going to dance among ghosts and have a toast to our legacy?

    Modern science is not about belief. You fail to understand that. It uses verification by repeated testing and application to minimize human bias.

    As for Gentry, he's a common creationist pseudoscientist. He proposed a hypothesis based on divine intervention as an alternative to scientific explanation for radiohalos, and when he's rightly laughed at for it, he plays victim.

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    Default Re: Life after Death : are we going to dance among ghosts and have a toast to our legacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sar1n View Post
    Modern science is not about belief. You fail to understand that. It uses verification by repeated testing and application to minimize human bias.

    As for Gentry, he's a common creationist pseudoscientist. He proposed a hypothesis based on divine intervention as an alternative to scientific explanation for radiohalos, and when he's rightly laughed at for it, he plays victim.
    Sar1n,

    So you've read his book? The scientific explanation for radio halos must conform to evolutionary thinking and when this man produces plenty of evidence to the contrary of course rather than let him upset the applecart he has to be ignored become a victim if you like of an organisation that will not allow itself to be wrong even though none can find fault with his findings. I always thought that science continued to search for the truth but it appears that is not so.

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    Default Re: Life after Death : are we going to dance among ghosts and have a toast to our legacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    I always thought that science continued to search for the truth but it appears that is not so.
    Science does, but scientists don't, not always. The Big Bang was initially mocked and rejected by most scientists as a silly religious idea. Sound familiar?

    In the 1920s and 1930s almost every major cosmologist preferred an eternal steady state universe, and several complained that the beginning of time implied by the Big Bang imported religious concepts into physics; this objection was later repeated by supporters of the steady state theory.[52] This perception was enhanced by the fact that the originator of the Big Bang theory, Georges Lemaître, was a Roman Catholic priest.[53]
    As Max Planck said, "A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it."
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  8. #48
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Life after Death : are we going to dance among ghosts and have a toast to our legacy?

    So you've read his book? The scientific explanation for radio halos must conform to evolutionary thinking and when this man produces plenty of evidence to the contrary of course rather than let him upset the applecart he has to be ignored become a victim if you like of an organisation that will not allow itself to be wrong even though none can find fault with his findings. I always thought that science continued to search for the truth but it appears that is not so.
    Yes a while back it was floating as a somewhat poor PDF form

    The problem is Robert V. Gentry's book is deeply flawed. I realize you won''t admit that. But "I always thought that science continued to search for the truth but it appears that is not so" you are wrong. Gentry has turned a interesting phenomenon into the basis for magical thinking.

    He is not ignored it just that his ideals do not hold up to scrutiny. First you might achieve yourself of a couple things The man is not a Dr of science, he holds but a MA and he has no credible background in geology. Nor importantly does he publish with any collaborator who is one (in his young earth). Have you looked at any recent scientific papers they are almost always massive collaborations of a range of experts from various fields.

    He found an interesting geological thing, but is not unique as he would argue and than he uses that to basically make stuff up.

    http://scholarworks.csun.edu/bitstre...pdf?sequence=1

    https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/...-1368-36.3.161

    http://www.csun.edu/~vcgeo005/baillieul.pdf

    http://grisda.org/origins/15032.pdf

    https://ncse.com/library-resource/re...s-tiny-mystery

    His theory (well really not since it cannot be tested) cannot stand scientific scrutiny. There is a lot to find fault with in his theory. At it core his assertion about primordial granite is simply an unfounded assertion that can be and has been contradicted. Maybe he can have a beer with Fleischmann and Pons and cry about it.
    Last edited by conon394; September 28, 2018 at 10:25 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  9. #49
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    Default Re: Life after Death : are we going to dance among ghosts and have a toast to our legacy?

    Am I the only one here who has no clue what a radiohalo is, or how it relates to ghosts and the afterlife?
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    Default Re: Life after Death : are we going to dance among ghosts and have a toast to our legacy?

    Please, please guys, can someone of good will be so kind to reassure the old Diocle about the fact that this is not the umpteenth useless discussion just trying to prove the not existence of God, or worse trying to count down the total amount of Theists/Atheists on TWC?

  11. #51
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    Default Re: Life after Death : are we going to dance among ghosts and have a toast to our legacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Legend View Post
    Am I the only one here who has no clue what a radiohalo is, or how it relates to ghosts and the afterlife?
    Dr. legend,

    They relate to the authenticity of the Bible in that this man asserts that we are indeed living on a young earth. It's just another little chink in the evolutionary armour that the world doesn't want to know about because it reinforces man's obligation to God and they won't have any of that. The only dancing and rejoicing will come from all those that get into heaven to be with God, the others, well if everlasting torment is their legacy then they are welcome to it but sadly.

  12. #52
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Life after Death : are we going to dance among ghosts and have a toast to our legacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Dr. legend,

    They relate to the authenticity of the Bible in that this man asserts that we are indeed living on a young earth. It's just another little chink in the evolutionary armour that the world doesn't want to know about because it reinforces man's obligation to God and they won't have any of that. The only dancing and rejoicing will come from all those that get into heaven to be with God, the others, well if everlasting torment is their legacy then they are welcome to it but sadly.
    Sorry basics there no chink when you have a poorly constructed that makes unfounded assertions based on on interesting phenomenon
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  13. #53

    Default Re: Life after Death : are we going to dance among ghosts and have a toast to our legacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    There are indeed many types of flood stories, but your problem is the particular one you choose to believe has left no observable evidence. If real it would have left a profound and detectable bottleneck in at minimum every mammal.
    If all Old Nations mention a Huge Flood in their records and Chronicles, despite their different cultures, geographies and customes, then perhaps there is a clue from the past that is being ignored.
    You can choose to ignore it, like you can choose to ignore a dinossaur footprint and dismiss it as nothing.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

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    Default Re: Life after Death : are we going to dance among ghosts and have a toast to our legacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Sorry basics there no chink when you have a poorly constructed that makes unfounded assertions based on on interesting phenomenon
    conon394,

    Yet this Phenomenon has been drawing people to Jesus Christ for the past six thousand years and no matter the background or the belief their lives have been changed quite drastically around that relatives or friends just cannot give an answer to it. That is the power of Almighty God so when He says six days, six days it was in the making of us and creation. One day you'll know that power. I just hope that you're not too late when you do.

  15. #55

    Default Re: Life after Death : are we going to dance among ghosts and have a toast to our legacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    That is the power of Almighty God so when He says six days, six days it was in the making of us and creation. One day you'll know that power. I just hope that you're not too late when you do.
    I just hope one day I can get the idea through that Creator does not use same timeline as Creation.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

  16. #56
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    Default Re: Life after Death : are we going to dance among ghosts and have a toast to our legacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by fkizz View Post
    If all Old Nations mention a Huge Flood in their records and Chronicles, despite their different cultures, geographies and customes, then perhaps there is a clue from the past that is being ignored.
    But it's not all. The primary stories all seem to come from the Near East, specifically Mesopotamia. And then was imported to cultures colonized or influenced by the various Near Eastern empires, particularly Babylonia, Assyria, and their revivals. The Greek variation of the flood story is entirely lifted from the Near East, along with a few other myths that are given literary value but weren't actually important in the religion-as-practiced.

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    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Life after Death : are we going to dance among ghosts and have a toast to our legacy?

    If all Old Nations mention a Huge Flood in their records and Chronicles, despite their different cultures, geographies and customes, then perhaps there is a clue from the past that is being ignored.
    You can choose to ignore it, like you can choose to ignore a dinossaur footprint and dismiss it as nothing.
    Flood myths are common but not universal. Second they are often very different few are as absolute as the Biblical one (setting aside the related Mesopotamian ones) many are clearly derivative as noted by Maximilian after contact with the Mesopotamian/Bible stories. To repeat the story of Deucalion and Pyrrha is a clear borrowing from the near east. It appears late in Greece 5th BC century be in a literary form. It leaves no mark in religious or national myths. No cults, festivals, no hint in Homer nor Hesiod, no history back to the Bronze age. Others for example like those you find from around the Pacific rim are clearly story's trying to make sense of Tsunamis and the flooding they cause. People generally survive by fleeing up to heights and the floods recede rapidly, in many cases there is no punishment implied but simply gods fighting.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

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    Default Re: Life after Death : are we going to dance among ghosts and have a toast to our legacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    No cults, festivals, no hint in Homer nor Hesiod
    Now that's not entirely accurate. Hesiod does have reference to Deucalion in Catalogue of Women, but it's in fragments doesn't even mention a flood. The story of Deucalion as told by Hesiod begins and ends with him throwing stones into the Earth, which birth the first generation of the Iron Age of men. The flood elements came in later, probably with Pindar and other poets two centuries after Hesiod. The elements that we would recognize as reflexes of the Biblical flood story, i.e. them surviving in a box, using pigeons to find land, only came about in the 1st century CE.

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    Default Re: Life after Death : are we going to dance among ghosts and have a toast to our legacy?

    conon394,

    The flood that Noah experienced did not have ground high enough for people and animals to survive. The water when it receded forced up the high mountains aided and abetted by volcanic activity enough so that there was plenty room for the water to take the place of what it had forced up. It's why we can find fish fossils too up in these mountains.

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    Default Re: Life after Death : are we going to dance among ghosts and have a toast to our legacy?

    Hesiod does have reference to Deucalion in Catalogue of Women
    True but given the fragmentary the event that caused the need for new people is not sure that's why glossed over it. A solid body of opinions argues the flood aspect is a later injection. Unlike the solid placing of the overall Prometheus arc (and Pandora) in all three of Hesiod's works. I suppose I was misleading. But I would argue it is late and not deeply embedded in Greek culture. Then only marginally as late as Hesiod in a generous reading. I also admit I brushed aside Plato (Timaeus 22a ff). But Plato makes or twists myths with a whim and adds or subtracts all kinds of stuff to get his stories to achieve his aims. It is worth noting that Plato's Solon would appear to relating a version of the Deucalion story to an Egyptian priest. He is laughed at like child and told that sure floods happen but the one he mentioned my have flooded greece but certainly not Egypt. I suspect Plato did not in reality consider the Greek flood myth credible.

    The flood that Noah experienced did not have ground high enough for people and animals to survive.
    How do you figure that?

    It's why we can find fish fossils too up in these mountains.
    Or you know the completely functional explanation offered by Modern Geology and Plate Technocratic. There is no sea of free underground water to be realized. Its locked in mineral form, it is in at the bottom of outer mantel to be released it would have to vaporized and much of the mantel would have to collapse Noah and his boast would not survive that.
    Last edited by conon394; October 01, 2018 at 11:16 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

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