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Thread: Valve leaks Steam game player counts

  1. #21
    Anna_Gein's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Valve leaks Steam game player counts

    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Cm'on! It's just a Fantasy game!
    Sure but it has dragons and unicorns. You do not like unicorns Diocle ?


    Quote Originally Posted by Daruwind View Post
    It is simple. Look at all other TWs, comparison with other TWs is the main problem of ToB:

    Rome - everybody will imagine Roman Legions, conquering whole world. Rome is symbol or greatness. Imperial Splendour, Ceasar, Hannibal, Augustus, Cleopatra. Big map from Frozen England almost to the India.
    Medieval - Another beloved settings, similar maps, crusades, Pope. Western Audience loves knights and castles, Attila is probably the most similar to this from recent titles with Campaign map size and faction diversity and with fall of Rome. Attila is also great historical character.
    Warhammer - ing Dragons fighting ing Dinosaurs...Elves, BDSM Elves, Stunties, Greenskins, Tomb Kings...You cannot pack more awesomeness into any other TW title.

    You see what all these TWs have similar? WH, Attila, Rome? Big campaign map, lot factions, lot additional content from DLCs..Looks like ToB from very beginning was intented to have almost no additional DLCs. That´s the problem while all other TWs are adding tons of additional content as FLCs or DLCs (you don´t have to buy DLC, AI will have all additions so the game gets better even for you!). But these games can start with some factions not fully fledged out and just add them later via DLCs.

    Attila is as well 40EU game but with knowledge about future DLCs they could aim higher with content and finish properly it later. But ToB had to do all factions from very beginning and that means some resources. At the same time the time frame, geographical setting is limited and that is limiting even faction diversity, units...there are simply no camels, elephants, horse archers/cavalry factions like steppe factions in Attila.

    So with all of this, what TW would you buy? If you put them all side by side. Rome 2, Attila, Whs, ToB is simply feels like smaller game. That´s my reason why not many people are trying it, with sales you can easily get a older bigger games. Yet, I played it without prejudice and it is quite good. Overall good TW. I´m missing awesome feeling of other TWs but enjoying it like more quiet smaller time period, like playing just some bigger DLC. Finished 4 campaigns and overall I had fun yet I was lacking any memorable moment.
    ToB is a bad game. Its under-performing sells are logical and deserved. ToB suffers from a poor marketing campaign, features removed, unambitious gameplay design and a dubious artistic direction.

    Its pre-release marketing was poor for multiple reasons :

    First ToB's focus was already covered by Attila. Vikings were the focus of Attila pre-release faction DLC. Irish and Scottish factions were covered by a following faction DLC. Then Charlemagne made playing the Anglo-Saxons and the Vikings (once again) during a timeframe close to ToB. So ToB felt very much like a repetition of Attila DLCs with the additional disadvantage of Attila being a stand alone DLC from Rome 2. TOB also suffered from its release calendar. It was announced and release after Warhammer II had been announced but before it was released. CA created confusion with its Saga thing. Fans already complained ToB looked like a glorified DLC for Attila and CA exacerbated the fears by telling Saga titles are smaller title than "normal" TW titles. After its initial misstep CA struggled to present ToB and its Saga thing as genuine stand alone title. Lastly Legend of Total War certainly damaged ToB's sells when he covered negatively the title, criticizing the title as dull and with too many cut content. To be fair his negative preview was entirely justified.

    The content of ToB is not good :

    There are too many cut contents. Ambushes were removed for unknown reasons. Character's retinue and skills point were clumsily merged. Religions and cultures taken out even as it should have been extensively covered given the period. Special agents were totally removed instead of reworked. Even diplomacy was simplified. Worse there is barely anything to replace the cut-off contents. Oddly enough, CA kept the technology tree even as during the Early Middle Age in the Britannic Isles hardly looks like a time of innovations and discoveries.

    CA and Jack Lusted tried to present ToB as an innovative title where they experimented many thing. It is not really true. For example the unit recruitment with few elites troops available existed in Medieval 2. A title released 12 years ago. Ok you do not need any building for recruitment but this was essentially true for units which only require the main building chain in earlier titles. Despite the smaller focus, individual factions do not feel really unique. The war weariness system of Charlemagne was implemented without change. As a result it ended up doing the exact opposite of its intention : allowing a victorious player to steamroll at will while punishing further players in trouble against the AI. Basically CA distributed different bar to fill or balance automatically. With the patch they are essentially copying the rites system of Warhammer 2. Let's agree its too little.

    The battle gameplay is also disappointing. During his recent interview, Jack tried to present positively ToB's battle by claiming the shield wall is presented in an automatic fashion. But in truth CA just reduced the unit spacing and tone down the pourcentage of 1vs1 animations. That is hardly an introduction of shield-wall warfare and it is a shame.

    Despite its narrow focus, the game is unpolished. Typically the walls in ToB are a copy-past of Attila walls despite the fact that siege warfare of Late Roman era and Anglo-Saxon era had nothing in common. There is not even an animation to remove battering ram once the gates are breached ...

    Overall the campaign gameplay suffered from too many cut contents and a general clumsy implementation of the remaining features.

    A final note on the artistic direction :

    The artistic direction is difficult to understand. CA choose to cover the British Isles shortly after the Great Heathen Army. The studio intentionally choose to not cover the most iconic viking invasion of England to focus to "what happens after", as CA liked to say before the game release. I think it is a fine idea. But then they added some epic music track including the main one which would have been for fitting for the Great Heathen Army. The game introduction has an ill-fitting modern direction and the game UI a very different style. It feels like there is no coherence in the artistic direction. In my opinion the game misses the mysterious, simple and mythical atmosphere fitting with Early Middle Age (particularly in the British Island).

  2. #22
    Daruwind's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Valve leaks Steam game player counts

    Quote Originally Posted by Anna_Gein View Post
    Fans already complained ToB looked like a glorified DLC for Attila and CA exacerbated the fears by telling Saga titles are smaller title than "normal" TW titles. After its initial misstep CA struggled to present ToB and its Saga thing as genuine stand alone title.
    Exactly what I think. ToB would be better as Attila´s DLC,bringing in so much needed performace update.
    Lastly Legend of Total War certainly damaged ToB's sells when he covered negatively the title, criticizing the title as dull and with too many cut content. To be fair his negative preview was entirely justified.
    Nah,you are giving Legend too much power. He is just one youtuber. CA managed to confused not only players, but even youtubers which in turn influenced the players even more..
    There are too many cut contents. Ambushes were removed for unknown reasons.
    The reason were given and made perfect sence, ambush battles are like way way below 1% of all battles in Attila. I can find you the blogpost if you cannot google it..
    Special agents were totally removed instead of reworked.
    People were complaining about agents a lot. Ok,removing them is extreme measure but why not try one game balance without them? I like that CA tried to remove them a balance game without them.

    Well we can discuss every aspect but probably each of us has different oppionion on what is good and what is not. However with latest beta update, I had fun and game was working. Yet it really feels like DLC to Attila than the Standalone title and that´s probably what we both can agree upon. But once you play it as DLC, it is quite good and working (my oppinion).

    Anyway, this thread should be more about overall number of players, why ToB is not so big success is probably discussion for ToB section of forum.

    Not completely about player count but we got Total War series complete sales from 2000:

    Total War series (since 2000) – Approx. 22 million (units / downloads*³) (packaged and digital total)
    *3 Including downloads of free-to-play titles
    Sources:


    From July Valve leak we got numbers of players for:
    Empire: Total War 3,491,439
    Total War: ROME II - Emperor Edition 3,350,407
    Napoleon: Total War 2,178,916
    Total War: WARHAMMER 2,085,605
    Total War: ATTILA 1,331,963
    Total War: WARHAMMER II 955,731
    Total War Saga: Thrones of Britannia 224,856

    as of July 1st, 2018 http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post15623903
    Which is overall +/- 13,6M. With recent massive sales (Whs were top sellers) and general sales from July...no idea, maybe another 100-200k more? So something like 13,7-13,8M for newer titles? (but not sure if these are included)

    Leaving something like 8,3-8,2M for Shogun 2 and Rome 1, Med 1+2, Shogun.

    Shogun 2 has great positive review score, little higher average online people the Attila, similar to Empire...So let´s say total sales about 2M?

    And forgot to add Arena+Kingdoms which could be another 0,5-1 M possibly? I have completely no idea here...

    So that would leave for Shogun + Rome + Med 1/2 numbers like (8,3-8,2)-2-(0,5-1)=5,8-5,2M for all these titles. (best case - worst case scenarios)

    Leaving just something about 1,3-1,45M for each of those older titles. Even if we say that Med 2 and Rome are probably more successful with like 2M, the other two games will be just under 1M...And that´s of course for their original and subsequent steam sales where a lot people bought the games again (like myself). Newer games were released only on steam...

    Ok, this is pure speculation on my part, wild estimation. Feel free to add your theories. Just keep in mind, the total numbers must add up to that public maximum number... :-) Just these numbers for the oldest titles seems to be way way lower than I would expect and probably many others too.

    And looking at steamDB for owners of these older titles:
    If Shogun and Medieval had original 0,5M sales, then Rome+Medival2 1M, it would add up with additional steam sales 1M for Rome and 2M for Medieval 2. This one scenario would mean totally almost 3M for Med2 but with some people rebuying the game on steam. So even in this best case scenario for Med2 total number of unique players/owners probably won´t reach 2,5M
    Last edited by ♔Greek Strategos♔; July 16, 2019 at 07:34 AM. Reason: Merged posts.

  3. #23
    Abdülmecid I's Avatar ¡Ay Carmela!
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    Default Re: Valve leaks Steam game player counts

    Yes, I also reached the same conclusion that, based on the data we had already collected, 22 million is a weirdly small number. Maybe I have a completely false impression of how well older titles sold, but fewer than six millions for three Total War games is not at all believable. I suspect something is off with the numbers. I am aware that there are many factors which influence a game's ''longevity'', but, right now, by only taking into account the digital stats, Medieval II is significantly more popular than Shogun, Empire and Napoleon (which is actually less popular than even the Steam version of Rome I). There is either a dramatic difference at player retention or a misleading discrepancy between the statistics of Valve and SEGA. Personally, judging from my own experience and common sense, the latter is a much likelier possibility. Perhaps the numbers of Valve are grossly overestimated or SEGA made a mistake at its claims and estimations. International companies enjoy the reputation of being flawless, but they are remarkably prone to sloppiness. I wonder whether SEGA took into consideration only the products that profited itself, but accidentally included every Total War game to the equation, thus falsely attributing the bizarrely low number of 22 million to Shogun I, Medieval I and Rome I, as well, despite neither of them initially being a property of the Japanese giant. I suppose I sound like a conspiracy-theorist, but skepticism is warranted, in this case, I think. Interested in hearing your opinion, Daruwind.

    P.S. To clarify, according to my hypothesis, only post-2005 sales were counted, but SEGA inaccurately stated that this number corresponds to the entirety of Total War history, in spite of only covering a negligible portion of the Rome I, Shogun I and Medieval I sales.
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; October 14, 2018 at 05:44 AM.

  4. #24
    Daruwind's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Valve leaks Steam game player counts

    EDIT: I started re-writing some parts...but it turned out to be much more complex with a lot notes and side stuf...This is mostly what if and best case scenario for Med 2. Just to see if it is better than Empire/Rome2 or not...
    --------------------------
    1) About Sega making a mistake. Hard to say. SEGA aquired CA in 2005 and both Alexander and Barbarian Invasion were already published under Sega so technically only Shogun (and Mongol Invasion for Shogun), Med 1 and Rome could be omitted from that count, in case Sega really made a "mistake". We have no evidence for that. Actually I´m not sure company would not added even the pre ownership numbers to "look better" overall. It is not about money,it is about numbers

    Anyway what were the sales in pre steam era? And only up to 2005, these initial sales? Comparing with newer titles, 1M seems to be too much as even WH1/2 are making 1M in first year and they are considered to be success and are quickly selling...I would go with overall sales like:
    --------------------------
    Shogun (2000-2005): 1M
    Mongol Invasion: whatever
    Med 1 (2002-2005): 1M
    Rome (2004-2005): 800K
    --------------------------
    In case Sega did mistake, these might be missing sales before Sega acquired CA. But again, we have no proof or info for that...And basically those numbers can be whatever. They will just add to the total number of sales..

    2) Another big question is, how were counted expansions in pre steam times. On steam they are almost always counted as DLCs but back in early days? These could as well be counted as separate units.. If we go with 300K per Expansion (Mongol Invasion, Alexander, Barbarian Invasion, Kingdoms) that could be easily another 1-1,5M lowering overall statistics somewhere...

    I searched the steam and looks like Alexander is actually considered to be separate unit, Barbarian Invasion is part of Rome collection, Med 2 Kingdoms are considered DLC, Mongol Invasion is also part of Shogun collection.
    Rome: Alexander 500K-1M
    https://steamdb.info/app/4770/graphs/
    That is adding to Rome 1 stats considerably
    Rome: 1-2M
    https://steamdb.info/app/4760/graphs/

    3) But another hard question is about Arena and Battles:Kingdoms, just looked at steamDB for Kingdoms and total owners are listed like 500k-1M. And there are no numbers for Arena. So anything around 500k-1M 1-1,5M for both titles combined...This number is important. It is directly lowering the free numbers i´m counting with...

    4) We can also expect the games on steam being re-bought after the long time passed from original release. I did, despite buying original Shogun, Meds...due to comfort and damage to original discs..
    --------------------------
    5) So finally. Going back to previous post:
    Leaving something like 8,3-8,2M for Shogun 2 and Rome 1, Med 1+2, Shogun.

    Shogun 2 has great positive review score, little higher average online people the Attila, similar to Empire...So let´s say total sales about 2M?

    And forgot to add Arena+Kingdoms which could be another 1-1,5M possibly? I have completely no idea here...(previously I had there 0,5-1M but thinking again about Arena, it should be between 1-1,5M probably)

    So that would leave for Shogun + Rome + Med 1/2 numbers like (8,3-8,2)-2-(1-1,5)=5,3-4,7M for all these titles. (best / worst case scenarios)...we can go probably with middle number of 5M

    Looking at steam DB:
    Shogun: 100-200K
    https://steamdb.info/app/345240/graphs/
    Medieval: 100-200K
    https://steamdb.info/app/345260/graphs/
    Rome: 1-2M
    https://steamdb.info/app/4760/graphs/
    Alexander: 500K-1M
    https://steamdb.info/app/4770/graphs/
    Medieval 2: 2-5M
    https://steamdb.info/app/4700/graphs/

    6) Counting just the lower numbers we got 3,7M which is leaving just around 1,3M (5M-3,7M = 1,3M) for non steam sales of Med 2 and Rome 1, but after being acquired by Sega. As we in this scenario are expecting Sega´s mistake, we can say Shogun,Med1,Rome had majority of their sales before being acquired be Sega...So we can split this 1,3M just between Med2/Rome... 1M for Med 2 and 300K for Rome... And that´s only in case Med 2 Kingdoms, Alexander, Barbarian Invasion were not counted separated before steam times!!!!! (Rome was new game + was getting expansions so it could sell more copies..that´s why it is getting 300K)

    So counting everything (omitted sales pre/pre steam/steam):
    Shogun:
    1M+0+200K
    Med 1
    1M+0+200K
    Rome
    800K+300K+1M
    Med 2
    0+1M+2M

    -people re-buing games on steam after so many years.
    -Kingdoms, Barbarian Invasion, Alexander pre-steam as those might be counted as separate expansion..
    -first numbers because Sega making mistake is just a theory :/

    Even in this best case scenario for Med 2, the max number is just around 3M. Minus re-buying...So realistically we are just around 2,5M. And Rome is reaching over 2M copies.

    7) In case Sega did not mistake and there are no more sales...Shogun, Med 1+2, Rome would need to distribute the 1,3M between them and bigger stress must be put on Shogun and Med 1 as their initial sales. Probably something like 500K for Shogun and Med 1 while Rome and Med 2 will get just some small like 100-200K.

    So counting everything (pre steam/steam):
    Shogun:
    500K+200K
    Med 1
    500K+200K
    Rome
    150K+1M
    Med 2
    150K+2M

    -people re-buing games on steam after so many years.
    -Kingdoms, Barbarian Invasion, Alexander pre-steam as those might be counted as separate expansion..

    --------------------------
    I honestly don´t know. All these nubmers are just personal estimates and trying to project one TW into another, in different times...

    Only valid conclusion I can get, with current DLC model, they are making more money per one sold game. Empire has massive sales but they are spread in 9 years plus DLCs are worth together only 18EU. Comparing it with R2 with all DLCs (55 EU base game + 125 for all DLCs without discount) and then with Warhammer and its DLCs. (only 60+70)..similar numbers will be true for other WH parts probably as well.

    Well maybe in time we will get some other piece of info like this Sega report.
    Last edited by Daruwind; October 16, 2018 at 09:16 AM.

  5. #25

    Default Re: Valve leaks Steam game player counts

    Idk how people can enjoy Rome II. I personally can't stand it. The unit cards... the crap building roster... just ugh. To each their own tho. I'm also suprised that so many played Age of Empires. Empire and Napoleon? Despite the somewhat crap launch of Empire, I still think it's one of the best games ever released by CA.

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Valve leaks Steam game player counts

    When it comes to unit cards, Rome II is by far the worse, but I can honestly see what they were going for. It is a little hard to fault them for the attempt. Fortunately, there are some good unit cards to use. I don't think the chains are necessarily bad, but some of the penalties you take for certain buildings seems out of place. I think one of the best TW game unit cards is ToB. The whole artistic approach is by far the best.
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  7. #27
    Bran Mac Born's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Valve leaks Steam game player counts

    Empire Total War was the most bugged game ever released by CA and has the most players Time for EMPIRE 2!

  8. #28
    Daruwind's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Valve leaks Steam game player counts

    https://www.vg247.com/2019/05/27/tot...unch-2019/amp/

    Looks like 3K has way better start then any other TW, dwarfing even WH1/2. 3K peaked at 192K concurrent players so far while R2 was 118K, Wh1 111k and Wh2 was around 70k. So 3K will be probably the biggest CA success up to date plus accroding to article, it is the best game launch on steam this year.

    It will be interesting to see how quickly 3K will breach million owners and if or how fast it will surpass other TWs.

    So looks like 3K was 6th top selling game in May 2019
    https://www.superdataresearch.com/wo...-games-market/

    Plus according to steamDB info, 3K is already between 1-2 Millions of owners. That is the same range as Wh1/2 and just for comparison R2/Empire are in 2-5 Millions bracket.
    Last edited by ♔Greek Strategos♔; July 16, 2019 at 07:35 AM. Reason: Merged posts.

  9. #29
    Basileos Leandros I's Avatar Writing is an art
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    Default Re: Valve leaks Steam game player counts

    With the release cycle of TW 3 Kingdoms and the massive sales success it has, I expect it to breach the 3-5 million bracket in the next year or so. After DLC and other content comes out, it should be a very good sales number.
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  10. #30
    ♔Greek Strategos♔'s Avatar BEARDED MODERATION
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    Default Re: Valve leaks Steam game player counts

    Quote Originally Posted by Basileos Leandros I View Post
    With the release cycle of TW 3 Kingdoms and the massive sales success it has, I expect it to breach the 3-5 million bracket in the next year or so. After DLC and other content comes out, it should be a very good sales number.
    Yeah, that's to be expected

  11. #31
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    Default Re: Valve leaks Steam game player counts

    Always had great respect for steam because of this. Nearly all other game clients (for example Blizzard) hide their statistics and it is really annoying. BTW Shogun 2 is really awesome.

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