How do I Sweboz?

[Dargaron]

Memetastic title notwithstanding, I'm having some trouble grasping how you're supposed to play the Sweboz.

In general, I'm trying not to stack my armies with too many elites, but I'm fairly constantly getting casualty rates of 20% or higher, even when I win battles against roughly-equal armies. I've lost twice now in stack-on-stack battles: once against the BK, once against the Lugiones.

My army "template," if you will, is the following:

1x FM
3x Veteran Spearmen
4x Levy Spearmen (in two groups of two)
2x Skirmishers
2x Skirmishers or Clubmen
2x or 3x archers/slingers
2x cavalry

I generally deploy the Veteran Spearmen in the centre, with one group of Levy Spearmen to either side, with one group of Skirmishers/Clubmen behind each wing, archers/slingers in front, and the cavalry refused on the left flank (If I'm using skirmishers and clubmen, the cavalry goes on whatever side the skirmishers are on). The FM goes behind the main line in the centre for maximum Inspiration.

The problem is: I'm not sure how to add striking power to this army. Generally, there's some cavalry skirmishing (with limited infantry support from the skirmishers), then my main line engages the bulk of the enemy army and gets bogged down in a grind-fest. My cavalry is generally still occupied with enemy cavalry (because Ridenaz suck badly), and the clubmen don't seem to have enough oomph to actually break enemies: any warriors with high enough armor for AP to be useful are elite enough (and have a high enough Defense Skill) that it isn't worth charging them: it'll take just as long for them to route as if I'd charged a non-armored, less elite unit.

The archers/slingers seem to be contributing squat at the moment: maybe I can sneak them around the side for some flank shots, but again, their damage potential is underwhelming. They certainly weren't effective against the Aorsi in my one battle with the KB, and even against Lugiones, they generally don't accomplish much. Should I just replace them with more spearmen? Should I bite the bullet and replace the Levy Spears with Veteran Spears, so that my flanks don't route?

It seems like the way to go with the Sweboz is to just not care about losses, fill an army with tons of dirt-cheap spearmen, and throw them into melee, realizing that you can pump out two or three of these guys per year per settlement, while the other dude can't. But I'm assuming that's not how the Sweboz are supposed to work.

A note: I've mainly been fighting Lugiones and Boii at this point. It looked like Rome might start being a problem, but they decided to blitz Gaul like it was 53 BC.

[Rad]

It looked like Rome might start being a problem, but they decided to blitz Gaul like it was 53 BC.

Rome is definitely going to be a problem. I am currently playing a Carthage campaign. Fighting Polybian Roman units feels like hitting a brick wall. God, I love this mod!

[Jurand of Cracow]

In general, I'm trying not to stack my armies with too many elites, but I'm fairly constantly getting casualty rates of 20% or higher, even when I win battles against roughly-equal armies. I've lost twice now in stack-on-stack battles: once against the BK, once against the Lugiones.

I'm not answering your question, but I have my own one: is 20% a big casualty rate? Do you have a Doctor or a general's trait that lowers this rate?
When you lost these battles what was the rate?

[athanaric]

I'm not answering your question, but I have my own one: is 20% a big casualty rate? Do you have a Doctor or a general's trait that lowers this rate?
When you lost these battles what was the rate?

Also, on which battle difficulty was he playing?

[Dargaron]

@Jurand of Cracow: 20% seems relatively high for a victory, in my experience. As Pontos, I was generally able to keep my casualties below 15% unless I really screwed up. Don't have a doctor on my warrior FMs: since Sweboz only get first level schools, the chances of getting one on the right FM isn't all that good, IIRC.

Lost battles generally result in 30%-40%. It would be higher if the AI was able to pursue w/ cavalry after the battle, since my units are overwhelmingly infantry. To my chagrin, the casualties are generally weighted toward my actually useful units, while the bowmen/slingers route early and get away to be useless another day.

@athanaric: Hard Campaign Difficulty, Medium Battle Difficulty.

[Jurand of Cracow]

20% seems relatively high for a victory, in my experience. As Pontos, I was generally able to keep my casualties below 15% unless I really screwed up. Don't have a doctor on my warrior FMs: since Sweboz only get first level schools, the chances of getting one on the right FM isn't all that good, IIRC.

Lost battles generally result in 30%-40%.

This is something that bothers me. The EBII has such a wonderful developed system of recruitment (for both factional and AoR units) and a slow refill of the pools that it seemed that the availability of the recruits would be a significant obstacle for the conquests. Unfortunately, it seems it doesn't matter much: you simply don't lose your troops, you just recruit a unit and it fights on for a few battles. You win a battle and then just 10-20% of the soldiers are dead, and with a doctor even more (in my experience the healing rate is 20%, with a doctor 33%). Unless you've got really few cities, you don't bother. And your performance in the battle (ability not to lose own soldiers) doesn't matter either...

[Beckitz]

Sometime Sweboz player here. Frankly, you may already be getting near optimal results from your battles if you're performing 20 percent with Sweboz armies. They do not have great kill power with factional units; until you can acquire a great general, with his morale and fear effects, Sweboz armies are frankly quick to wear out and slow to get kills.

My advice: I can't tell from your post, but I think you may be engaging the enemy mostly along the center? With two wings to push from the outside? My critique would be to attack the enemy at a flank. I started getting great Sweboz results when I switched battle tactics towards preying on weak links in the enemy line, typically the left or right flank. Coming at them like that, with your center arranged against their flank and your one wing threatening to loop around their rear, and your other wing pushing back on their battle line for support, this epitomizes the tactical principles of war.

[Rad]

In my opinion, Sweboz are EBs "quick and dirty" faction. Affordable, plentiful - but dont expect miracles from them.

[athanaric]

I've found that having an allied settlement which enables you to recruit Gallic heavy cavalry (and infantry) increases your armies' effectiveness. Although I don't know if that'll still be possible in future releases.

[LusitanianWolf]

Suebic FMs are total badasses. I would use 1 FM for halfstacks, 2 FM for 3/4 stacks and 3FM for larger "main" stacks and use the bodyguards to spearpoint attacks on flanks.

[Lord Custard]

My army "template," if you will, is the following:

1x FM
3x Veteran Spearmen
4x Levy Spearmen (in two groups of two)
2x Skirmishers
2x Skirmishers or Clubmen
2x or 3x archers/slingers
2x cavalry

My 0.02 minai's worth...

In my experience clubmen and vet spearmen drop like flies with the former taking the most causalities as the AI loves to concentrate all firepower on them (arrows, slings you name it). I would replace them with more skirmishers or levy spearmen and use vet spearmen sparingly.
Ridinz cavalry are for the most part, not worth the time and money unless you're desperate for maneuverability (luring away the heavy cav of the Boii) or need them to run down fleeing enemy units.
I like to add an extra FM unit to support your general. I roleplay it as a more junior member being guided by the general and getting some experience actually fighting before they are allowed to lead their own armies. Probably not historically accurate but whatever...

As for tactics I find the Sweboz a lot more straightforward then other factions I usually do three lines of men with the FMs in the middle as one line supporting the levy spearmen and the vet spearmen nearby. The line in front will be the juginthiz skirmishers who will be eager to prove themselves. Have the skirmish mode switched off as they can give a surprisingly good account of themselves when melee begins provided your FM/general isn't dead. The line at the back will be for archers and slingers. If I have any cavalry I will have them on the flanks but mostly when I play Sweboz that is very rare.

[BailianSteel]

Disclaimer: don't have much Sweboz expertise.

It sounds like what you want is the Hammer to your Anvil. If you're going east, I can recommend the Bastarnae for that role. I found that their cavalry could keep up the Boioi factional elite, though I can't say I fought them much, and their Foot Companions are in the same league as Rompaianai. Getting to them will be an issue though, the closest area of recruitment is the province right next to Boiotergon...literally. Sweboz governments and cultural differences might be an issue too. I had the option of Confederating Asanka, so I assume the region's predominantly Celtic.

I'd personally put the Vets on the flanks, a unit getting flanked is a massive morale killer, and your best men are better suited to handle that than your levy. Moving your FMs to the flanks (if you want them staffed with levies) or putting a reserve behind them also helps.

You could try fancier formations to break the enemy faster too, refused center to envelop the bulk of the enemy force and constrain them is the other thing I can think of.