Question about Phalanx power and custom stats modification

[tentaku]

Hi I am new to EB2 and I am on a binge playing this game what an amazing amazing mod! The one thing I felt a little sad about is that it seems the phalanxes are a little weak and other elite infantries have no problem taking the best phalanx head on and destroy the phalanx despite a 1:2 numerical disadvantage (also a cost advantage). I just had a game where an elite hoplite destroy an agema phalanx head on in a 1v1 custom battle with 25:80 casualty rate.

I always felt the phalanx were never really beaten from the front throughout ancient history, they only got mauled when situation got complex. Is there a way I can modify the phalanx stats from game file? I wish I can give all phalanx units a power up so that the agema phalanx can convincingly beat all other elite infantries head on, while still vulnerable on the sides.

[Genghis Skahn]

Glad you're enjoying the mod. The main issue seems to be that the M2TW engine doesn't "do" phalanxes very well. Even with higher attack, the enemy often "walks through" the phalanx head on. Since the RTW engine had units specifically designed for macedonian phalanx, it worked a lot better in EB1 than EB2(although they were kind of stupidly OP). There's been lots of attempts to improve phalanxes by our unit-statters, but there are still many issues which yet remain. It's a complex problem issue, unfortunately.

[tentaku]

Glad you're enjoying the mod.....

Thanks for the reply. I guess it can't really be helped then and I will just have to buff it a little bit like the vanilla Scot royal pikemen. I found export_descr_unit in the mod's data folder and its section on phalanx units. I guess that's where I change it huh

stat_pri 6, 0, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, spear, 75, 1
stat_pri_attr light_spear, long_pike, spear_bonus_12
stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, melee_simple, blunt, none, 0, 1
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 9, 6, 5, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh

but I couldn't find where you change the unit size in that text block, is it also found in that same text or it's done differently....

[Gunydii]

A while ago there was a post on this topic, there were some 'draft' stats suggested. I did some testing at the time and was sort of surprised that (at least with the provisional stats proposed then) depth of formation was very important.

There was an argument that basically went 'you've used these stats but they still suck' vs someone saying 'these stats seem to have approximately the desired effect'. I tried to figure out why the results where inconsistent.

With a 16 x 16 style depth the phalanx was very effective, but as it got stretched to say 32 x 8 or worse it would get torn up by units they would comfortably chew through in full depth. I have no good explanation as to why this is the case (my best guess was that if you had men at the back turn round to fight it murdered shallow formations in a way deep ones could tolerate) but its possible you could have significantly different effectiveness (at least with some stats) for phalanxes based on deep formation vs (what looks like) stupidly deep formations.

Not saying this makes them world beaters, but formation depth could be something important to consider if you start testing these things thoroughly.

[Rad]

Remember kids, the phalanx is there so the cavalry can do its work.

[tentaku]

A while ago

In my custom battles the depth of phalanx was fine, the charging hoplites made a concave shape out of the phalanx but the phalanx was not punctured. I will continue to tweak the stats then. Too bad I missed the thread that discussed about the whole thing.

[tentaku]

Remember kids, the phalanx is there so the cavalry can do its work.

Nah, that's for pikemen. Phalanx has too much pride to be used as a mere anvil. It was its own hammer.

[Rad]

I was talking about the Macedonian style pike phalanx.

[Gunydii]

Too bad I missed the thread that discussed about the whole thing.

Found the thread if you feel like reading up on it http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...ding-Phalanxes

Incidentally I played a fair amount as Epirus in campaign using the stats discussed here. Can't recall being disappointed by the phalanx performance, but it was a fair time ago.

[Beckitz]

I've personally noticed phalanxes significantly more effective when combined from multiple units. I too notice a lone phalanx underperforming, but have discovered that their performance increases signficantly if you can get two or more to stand inside each other during battle. It seems like you need a lot of spear points together at once in order to start seeing significant kill power from your phalanx

[tentaku]

Found the thread if you feel like reading up on it http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...ding-Phalanxes

Thanks for the help.

I've personally noticed phalanxes significantly more effective when combined from multiple units.

Helpful tip. Can't believe they need more spears after already having twice the size...

[Genghis Skahn]

Well, at the least phalanxes still destroy cavalry. Agema phalanxes especially have caused me great mischief against some of my best cavalry units. That's one of the reasons I still find them useful, because if you get 3-4 units of them, they can form a wall that's virtually impenetrable to dangerous cavalry. In that regard, I'd still say they're great infantry to use against Steppe factions.

[tentaku]

I was talking about the Macedonian style pike phalanx.

I was thinking about the Battle of Gabiene, where Eumene's silver shields slaughtered 5000 enemy infantry.

[tentaku]

Well, at the least phalanxes still destroy cavalry. .

The cavalry charge in this mod is not that fearsome though, even though the charge stat is amazing. In stainless steel 6.4 custom battle my knight can pulverize at least half of the best non-spear infantry in one frontal charge, but in this mod my cataphract at most deal 5~6 quick deaths to a sword elite in a frontal charge before getting bogged down.

[Genghis Skahn]

The cavalry charge in this mod is not that fearsome though, even though the charge stat is amazing. In stainless steel 6.4 custom battle my knight can pulverize at least half of the best non-spear infantry in one frontal charge, but in this mod my cataphract at most deal 5~6 quick deaths to a sword elite in a frontal charge before getting bogged down.

Technologically and historically speaking, at this time heavy cavalry wasn't as well developed of a concept as it would later become in the medieval era like in Stainless Steel. A lot of cavalry forces weren't mean to be truly line breaking(and those that were had lots of other unit types supporting them), but instead used for scouting, harassment, skirmishing, countering enemy cavalry and most importantly chasing down routers. At any rate, I have no issues with destroying enemy forces using light or medium cavalry, though I mostly charge from behind with those sorts of units. People have even complained about cavalry's OP nature in the past, as well(especially when using hammer+anvil tactics). Fighting Steppe armies totally composed of cavalry in the open field without sufficient supporting cavalry of your own can be scary man.

I'm quite experienced with the Saka cataphracts. Let me tell you, I didn't kill just 5-6 men per charge when fighting baktria in the open field. I massacred them and broke their morale--but this was mostly after I had harassed them with my HAs though.

[Rad]

Technologically and historically speaking, at this time heavy cavalry wasn't as well developed of a concept as it would later become in the medieval era like in Stainless Steel. A lot of cavalry forces weren't mean to be truly line breaking(and those that were had lots of other unit types supporting them), but instead used for scouting, harassment, skirmishing, countering enemy cavalry and most importantly chasing down routers. At any rate, I have no issues with destroying enemy forces using light or medium cavalry, though I mostly charge from behind with those sorts of units. People have even complained about cavalry's OP nature in the past, as well(especially when using hammer+anvil tactics). Fighting Steppe armies totally composed of cavalry in the open field without sufficient supporting cavalry of your own can be scary man.

I'm quite experienced with the Saka cataphracts. Let me tell you, I didn't kill just 5-6 men per charge when fighting baktria in the open field. I massacred them and broke their morale--but this was mostly after I had harassed them with my HAs though.

You said it, sister!

[tentaku]

I'm quite experienced with the Saka cataphracts. Let me tell you, I didn't kill just 5-6 men per charge when fighting baktria in the open field. I massacred them and broke their morale--but this was mostly after I had harassed them with my HAs though.

I hope this is not too late to ask this question. Whenever I charged with my cavalry, after it's bogged down, and i try to pull it out for another charge, many of its men are stuck inside/behind enemy formation, and they often die while trying to pull out. Is there any trick to alleviate this situation...

[BailianSteel]

I hope this is not too late to ask this question. Whenever I charged with my cavalry, after it's bogged down, and i try to pull it out for another charge, many of its men are stuck inside/behind enemy formation, and they often die while trying to pull out. Is there any trick to alleviate this situation...

The best solution is to not get bogged down. Catch an enemy unit while they're moving, or are in a loose/disordered formation, and you should be able to pull out with little fuss. More subtly, you'd want to match the target formation's width to your cavalry's width. Using larger width from your cavalry to envelope them has it's merits, but on the charge the excess riders will go into the enemy's flanks and get bogged down.

[tentaku]

Using larger width from your cavalry to envelope them has it's merits, but on the charge the excess riders will go into the enemy's flanks and get bogged down.

Thanks!