spies in cities

[Maroslav]

How am i supposed effectively kick out enemy spy from a city? It seems to me incredibly impossible to do that. is there any multiplier for more own spies in cities to help with that? I have pretty solid spies in every city with unrest higher than 30%, but i didn't manage kick any of theirs so far. A moment ago i was assured that it is spy when they opened my gates during siege defense. Any tips aside from having counterspy? I am playing Takshashila. Culture differences are pesky enough on its own. Now i have to keep fullstacks in every city outside India just because of all negative PO modifiers no matter what i build or who govern those cities.

[Nightsh4de]

You could try assassins and I guess diplomats on the bribe, never tried it myself as I never have problems getting enemy spies caught or expelled, maybe you were just unlucky. Perhaps you have a 007 doing missions in your cities lol?

[Maroslav]

how long will persist that unrest from conquest?

[Jurand of Cracow]

...I have pretty solid spies in every city with unrest higher than 30%, but i didn't manage kick any of theirs so far. A moment ago i was assured that it is spy when they opened my gates during siege defense. Any tips aside from having counterspy? ...

Are you really sure that the spies are the cause? It seems to me it's rather the province-related unrest.

I think the sources of unrest are as follows:
- newly conquered province: instant 30% if occupied (special minus-unrest benefits if sacked/exterminated); plus special add-on (perhaps up to 80%? I don't know, but I've got 80% unrest after having taken Kabula) for a few very important settlements, declines in 5% steps a turn;
- foreign cultures (displayed differently: black masks) max. 50% (with the presence of your culture at 0-5%, but if your it's 50% then the unrest is 20% unrest - Poppis made an Excel table with a proper counting), which only subsides if you convert to your culture (Allied Governments fast-convert to "Independent")
- rebels in the province cause unrest (declines 5% a turn after rebels are killed);
- province-specific natural unrest - varies from province to province (there's been the map of this unrest, for most regions between 10 and 55%, with two worse provinces at 75% (Ptolemais-Akko) and 100% (Albabagena) - it stays in the game;
- famine (displayed as skulls) - the bigger cities, the more famine (but it's still pretty low compared to the other mods and other sources of unrest);
- distance from capital (displayed as wheels) - as in the vanilla M2TW and other mods;
- Greek cities have special "buildings" (stasis and autonomia) that provide for substantial unrest (20%) for the factions other than KH;
- spies - I don't know if it exists in the EBII, but it certainly does in the other mods;
- certain governors traits provide for unrest or famine.


Anything more?

[Maroslav]

Are you really sure that the spies are the cause? It seems to me it's rather the province-related unrest.

I think the sources of unrest are as follows:
- newly conquered province: instant 80% unrest (or it's lower? this is the figure that was posted some time ago, but might be only for the more important settlements, I've taken Byzantion as Pergamon and haven't seen this type of unrest, but with Kabala that belongs to the Thracians - yes), declines at a rate of 5% a turn;
- foreign cultures: max. 50% (with your culture at 0-5%, but if your culture is 50% then the unrest is 20% unrest - Poppis made an Excel table some time ago with a proper re-count), which only subsides if you convert to your culture (Allied Governments fast-convert to "Independent")
- rebels in the province cause unrest (declines 5% a turn after rebels are killed);
- province-specific natural unrest - varies from province to province (there's been the map of this unrest, for most regions between 10 and 55%, with two worse provinces at 75% (Ptolemais-Akko) and 100% (Albabagena) - it stays in the game;
- famine - the bigger cities, the more famine (but it's still pretty low compared to the other mods and other sources of unrest);
- distance from capital - as in the vanilla M2TW and other mods (technically it's not unrest but it's displayed separately in the scroll);
- Greek cities have special "buildings" (stasis) that provide for substantial unrest (20%) for the factions other than KH;
- spies - I don't know if it exists in the EBII, but it certainly does in the other mods - it's displayed as unrest;
- certain governors traits provide for unrest or famine (obviously, the latter is not displayed as unrest, but as additional famine).


Anything more?

Thanks for replies. Do you have link on that map, which specify region-related unrest? However, spies cause enormous filth and if they are fully skilled, it seems to me practicaly impossible to get rid of them. Also i have hear that it matters how you treat a city after you conquer him. That if you sack/massacre people, then the unrest will gradualy grow to some point for a long period of time. But is a long time ago.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Thanks for replies. Do you have link on that map, which specify region-related unrest? However, spies cause enormous filth and if they are fully skilled, it seems to me practicaly impossible to get rid of them. Also i have hear that it matters how you treat a city after you conquer him. That if you sack/massacre people, then the unrest will gradualy grow to some point for a long period of time. But is a long time ago.

Map is here.
To be frank - I haven't seen many spies in my games. I think they may seem to be plenty if many other factions are added, but they should be max. 5 per faction, afaik.
No idea about long-term effects of sacking/enslaving, but it'd interesting to hear from Quintus how it's now (and if my list is right / complete). I think it gives temporary lower unrest that's fade away at the usual 5%/turn rate (thus it may appear that the unrest it growing - while it's the minus-unrest is declining).

[Genghis Skahn]

Spies most certainly do cause unrest, and can be very pesky. It can be difficult to know when your city has a spy inside of it though, unless that spy has been caught and then subsequently kicked out of the city or killed.

[Floren d'Asteneuz]

The problem is that computer controlled faction have virtually an unlimited number of spies. Maybe there is a cap, but as soon as you kill one, they recruit a new one and so forth.

Same with assassins.

[Kaskad]

Hello. How you guys manage to reduce famine ? ( except putting a governor with special traits)

[Maroslav]

and this province-related unrest will disappear in some time or it is permanent?

[Jurand of Cracow]

Hello. How you guys manage to reduce famine ? ( except putting a governor with special traits)

I don't think it's possible otherwise. You've got to live with it, otherwise the size of the cities would sky-rocket. You've got to build buildings like granary to counterweigh.

and this province-related unrest will disappear in some time or it is permanent?

permanent, afaik. btw, it's not only in the EBII, also the SSHIP has additional unrest (although it varies less from provinces to province).

[Daelric]

I came on here just now to make a post about public order fluctuations that I think are caused by spies and I see this. I really wish there was a way to figure this out for sure, and then a way to counter it.

I've been having nothing but problems in my Baktra campaign keeping the public order in Baktria (my capital) under control. I haven't been able to understand it because I restarted my game a couple days ago and am having all these issues where I'm up to about Turn 70, whereas the game I was playing before this I was up over 100 and never had this issue with PO, especially in my capital (I restarted the game because I wanted to ensure I completed all the missions to get the max # of colony points in the new game).

For a while I just assumed my problem was because my income hasn't been what it was in the previous game, and so my buildings/improvements like Waystayions and Garrisons etc have been slower getting built. But then just recently something strange happened. I've been struggling with PO in Baktria (and elsewhere) with it hovering around blue/red (65-70%) and then one turn I got a notification that a Pahlahvan spy had been found and executed, and all of a sudden my PO in Baktria was 135% with no other changes (no new recruitment, governor change, or building completed). Then the next turn it was back down to 65-70% again (new spy infiltrated?).

Anyway, I'd love to know if there's a way to deal with this because it's super annoying. And if it is a spy causing my problems, it's a bit overpowered IMHO that it can cause unrest on the order of a 65-70% drop!

[Maroslav]

I came on here just now to make a post about public order fluctuations that I think are caused by spies and I see this. I really wish there was a way to figure this out for sure, and then a way to counter it.

I've been having nothing but problems in my Baktra campaign keeping the public order in Baktria (my capital) under control. I haven't been able to understand it because I restarted my game a couple days ago and am having all these issues where I'm up to about Turn 70, whereas the game I was playing before this I was up over 100 and never had this issue with PO, especially in my capital (I restarted the game because I wanted to ensure I completed all the missions to get the max # of colony points in the new game).



For a while I just assumed my problem was because my income hasn't been what it was in the previous game, and so my buildings/improvements like Waystayions and Garrisons etc have been slower getting built. But then just recently something strange happened. I've been struggling with PO in Baktria (and elsewhere) with it hovering around blue/red (65-70%) and then one turn I got a notification that a Pahlahvan spy had been found and executed, and all of a sudden my PO in Baktria was 135% with no other changes (no new recruitment, governor change, or building completed). Then the next turn it was back down to 65-70% again (new spy infiltrated?).

Anyway, I'd love to know if there's a way to deal with this because it's super annoying. And if it is a spy causing my problems, it's a bit overpowered IMHO that it can cause unrest on the order of a 65-70% drop!

I have found, that the best way to get rid of enemy spies from a city is let it rioting at 60-65% if possible, where they are usually kicked out from a city, one by one. In my current Indian playthrough it is quite regular, that a newly conquered cities( especially those more advanced) have already spies inside. The thing you will have to do is garrison every city bordering with hostile faction(already in war or behaving like it would like to ) with skilled spies. I have had very rare cases where i was able to kick out enemy spies in non-rioting city. Always during riots.

[Jurand of Cracow]

I came on here just now to make a post about public order fluctuations that I think are caused by spies and I see this. I really wish there was a way to figure this out for sure, and then a way to counter it.

I've been having nothing but problems in my Baktra campaign keeping the public order in Baktria (my capital) under control. I haven't been able to understand it because I restarted my game a couple days ago and am having all these issues where I'm up to about Turn 70, whereas the game I was playing before this I was up over 100 and never had this issue with PO, especially in my capital (I restarted the game because I wanted to ensure I completed all the missions to get the max # of colony points in the new game).

For a while I just assumed my problem was because my income hasn't been what it was in the previous game, and so my buildings/improvements like Waystayions and Garrisons etc have been slower getting built. But then just recently something strange happened. I've been struggling with PO in Baktria (and elsewhere) with it hovering around blue/red (65-70%) and then one turn I got a notification that a Pahlahvan spy had been found and executed, and all of a sudden my PO in Baktria was 135% with no other changes (no new recruitment, governor change, or building completed). Then the next turn it was back down to 65-70% again (new spy infiltrated?).

Anyway, I'd love to know if there's a way to deal with this because it's super annoying. And if it is a spy causing my problems, it's a bit overpowered IMHO that it can cause unrest on the order of a 65-70% drop!

I have experienced something similar in the Pergamon campaign: the unrest fluctuating from 40 to 80% in a few steps (like 40 -> 45 -> 50 -> 60 -> 80), then coming back to 40.
It was just in one city (Kabyla), on the border of my faction. I still don't think the spies are the problem (haven't seen any, even though I've put strong own spies and assassins inside the city; the changes are in those strange stages). Part of the problem may come from the client ruler traits (he does get negative ones for the unrest) but how to explain why it moved back and why the changes were so big? I've got no clue. (there's no devastation present)
Maybe the team could say something on this, and indeed on the topic of this thread?

[hlidskjalf]

look in settlement details for unrest and devastation

over multiple campaigns i've had unrest issues with batumacos(sp), the city in normandy area. always has very high unrest, maybe it's a feature

[Jurand of Cracow]

over multiple campaigns i've had unrest issues with batumacos(sp), the city in normandy area. always has very high unrest, maybe it's a feature

This would be a great feature, if it'd exist. I actually find it a weak side of the M2TW engine that you don't have problems in your backyard settlements unless you're very sloppy in the PO management. In history the client ruler or the governors of the settlements would often rebel (in the M2TW it's not possible inside settlements), and the populations would also periodically make more troubles than otherwise (the EBII simulates it through high natural unrest of certain provinces, and through rebel scripts - but it spawns the armies, not create additional unrest, afaik).
Spies - I haven't seen this heavy effect (70%) on unrest, but who knows how much it's possible...