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Thread: Stack spam script

  1. #41
    Otterbear's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: Stack spam script

    Quote Originally Posted by Seether View Post
    As an update, Gigantus is pretty sure he identified the problem and I have made the appropriate changes to the script. I’ll try to get some limited testing before the v2.3 release.
    My bad, I had only downloaded the hotfixes and didn't notice that the base exe file had been updated as well. (Or at least the date/time stamp makes it look that way.) I downloaded all three just to be safe.So, yea, disregard my issue as it may have actually been fixed already.

  2. #42
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    Default Re: Stack spam script

    Yep, sequential order of 2.3.000 Patch, then 2.3.001 Hotfix, then 2.3.002 Hotfix. I don’t think it was completely “fixed” prior to 2.3.002, as the amount of units allowed per settlement type was a bit high.
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  3. #43
    Gigantus's Avatar I am not special - I am a limited edition.
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    Default Re: Stack spam script

    A restriction somewhat fails to live up to it's name if the restriction is too high

    The numbers worked pretty well in EBII so I guess recruit priority and price of building might play into it as well.










  4. #44
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    Default Re: Stack spam script

    OK, I'm using the latest version, and both hot-fixes and this is what I see after about 90 turns. *See attached jpg file.
    I have adjusted the Squalor variables in the settlement xml, as squalor was making it impossible to get to huge-city levels. This does make the progression to Huge city a lot quicker than normal. However, I've managed to get rid of squalor,(its stuck at 5% atm),and I really have no Idea what I did. I just played with the numbers until it was no longer hobbling my ability to get to huge city size.

    If the amount of units allowed the AI is tied to the city size, and I believe it is, and that amount is rather large, than this could be a big contributing factor to the stack spam I'm seeing.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 0001.jpg  
    Last edited by Otterbear; October 27, 2018 at 02:08 PM.

  5. #45
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    Default Re: Stack spam script

    I think you arent supposed to have so many highest level cities because historically not all cities got so big only important ones. In game you can get to highest level even without squalor reduction by putting very good administrator there. So i guess this kinda "broke" script.

  6. #46

    Default Re: Stack spam script

    Demetrios is right, that may be the issue I ended my Sun Clan campaign on turn 105 and not single one city reach that level.


    Edit: Gigantus can you explain us how we can adjust this numbers in script?

  7. #47
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    Default Re: Stack spam script

    Quote Originally Posted by DemetriosCZE View Post
    I think you arent supposed to have so many highest level cities because historically not all cities got so big only important ones. In game you can get to highest level even without squalor reduction by putting very good administrator there. So i guess this kinda "broke" script.
    That makes sense, however, I had a Governor that was tops in every way I know of, when it came to governance, acumen of 7, and a city with every possible luxury or pop-enhancing building(in fact, all build-able buildings), and pop-growth was at a stand-still due to squalor.levels...or some built-in constraint. It begs the question..."How do I get ANY city past large, if squalor levels are going to prevent it." As I've said, I had a city with every possible enhancement, and a governor with the best combination of pop-enhancement stats I think there could be, and could not get past large before squalor put a stop to it. I believe that squalor is a "Tool" for devs or the game to use to stop ever increasing pop-growth, but it seems that whatever it is set at, its bringing growth to a stop early, or before population levels can be reached to get to the huge city level.

    I don't mind restraints...well, I'm never really happy with arbitrary limits to what I can/cannot accomplish in game, as long as:

    1: I, the player Know about it, and,
    2:I can do something about it.

    If the player does not know which cities can or cannot, upgrade to huge size, then they have to assume they all can, or cannot. This leads to building buildings/or not building buildings, which are going to do me no good, and are in fact a waste of my time and money.

    I seriously hope that city size is not limited by the mod.(TATW and DAC, both do this...grrr). As I say, squalor levels do that for you, but must be adjusted in the xml to allow for the pop-requirements to be met BEFORE squalor brings it to a halt. but without a way to manage squalor(and from all I've read there are no buildings that can reduce squalor, only the settlement xml), again, the player is left in the dark as to what cities allow for max growth, if any can reach max size due to the squalor restrictions in the xml.

    Any thoughts? Have I missed something? Has anyone been able to get to huge city size in ANY city using the default settlement xml?

    I will test again with the default Settlement xml, and see if I can get any city to huge with those figures.
    Last edited by Otterbear; October 27, 2018 at 08:32 PM.

  8. #48
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    Default Re: Stack spam script

    Understand! Thank you for the clarification!
    It seems I previously had some misunderstanding: I assumed the authorization you obtained was for Hanzhishang itself. Now it seems you only got the permission for converting to M2TW platform the original RTW based Sanguo Total War. That's a bit of a bummer - it surprised me that Pillar Studio, who made both Sanguo (based on RTW) and Hanzhishang (based on M2TW), would only consent to allow you guys to adapt the former but not the latter.
    Had you guys started off with Hanzhishang as the original vanilla materials, the current ROTK mod would be up on a whole new level of play-ability. I can't help but feeling a bit rueful about that drawback concerning the map: in terms of the soldier models, battle systems and campaign triggers, ROTK is progressing well abreast of all the other Hanzhishang variants (even ahead of them in many ways). Yet the single handicap of the stone-age quality map is just too crippling (it's only 1/4 as large with far fewer cities and features, and the overall level of nuance is equally bare-boned in comparison). For anyone who had seen the standard Hanzhishang map, the current ROTK campaign map (based on Sanguo TW map developed in 2007) just feels too vintage to even inspire interest in playing it. (Unless the player has never seen a Hanzhishang map, so he is simply unaware of stark contrast and feels no discomfort.) It's particularly ironical that ROTK is the only China-based M2TW mods currently existing in the world that uses a RTW age map. There are a whole bunch of China-based mods currently popular among the Chinese players on Chinese mod forums: apart from all the Hanzhishang variants, many are mods focusing on different eras, from early Warring States periods in the 400s BC, to the Mongolian Conquest of Jin/Song in the 1230s, to Jurchen-Qing's conquest of Ming in the 1640s, to even the Beiyang Warlord period in the 1920s - they are developed by totally different teams with totally different concepts, aesthetics units, scenarios, play styles, etc. Yet all of them seem to have developed their respective maps of China on the basis of the original Hanzhishang map that first came out in 2013. (In other words, that map is now the "grandfather map" for all China based M2TW mods.) I doubt many of them even bother with the issue of authorization, as that grandfather map seems to have become a piece of open resources that every modding teams simply picks up and tinkers with to their hearts' satisfaction. So far ROTK team is the only one that clings onto the avoidance of the Hanzhishang map.
    Given that, I kinda wonder:
    Does the team have any plan of acquiring the Hanzhishang map and incorporating it into ROTK's future versions? If that's too time consuming, given the hectic work of having to re-enter all the co-ordinates for all the campaign script triggers, could you simply borrow Hanzhishang's (or its variants') existing campaign script along with the map, and give it some less-labour intensive customization? Bear in mind that the vanilla Hanzhishang and its myriad variants all have their own impressively designed campaign scripts that pretty much delivers everything ROTK has on offer, and even above and beyond, such as the character capturing feature that allows the conqueror of a faction to acquire all its historical characters (including the killed, who would be resurrected), or the empire creation feature that allows a player to turn into a new faction (Cao clan becoming Wei, for example) once it meets the condition of declaring its own empire (in a way similar to the re-forging of Arnor in the Third Age mod), or the acquisition of historical elite units upon triggering major historical battles - just to name a few. If the ROTK team can do that it will be building on the shoulder of a giant - introducing the mighty Hanzhishang mods with all its glory to international players who can't read Chinese, retaining its awesome features (the map in particular), while adding unique bonus contents on top.

  9. #49
    Gigantus's Avatar I am not special - I am a limited edition.
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    Default Re: Stack spam script

    I am having vague memories of the recruit limit script being disabled after a set number of turns - will have to check on that.

    As to top level cities - I think it's only achievable in regions with a high fertility level, need to check here as well, just in case.

    ...such as the character capturing feature that allows the conqueror of a faction to acquire all its historical characters (including the killed, who would be resurrected), or the empire creation feature that allows a player to turn into a new faction (Cao clan becoming Wei, for example) once it meets the condition of declaring its own empire (in a way similar to the re-forging of Arnor in the Third Age mod), or the acquisition of historical elite units upon triggering major historical battles - just to name a few. If the ROTK team can do that it will be building on the shoulder of a giant
    All these features are relatively easy to implement (did them in 1648), it's another matter if they fit with the mod's goal. Eg if it is only loosely based on lore\history or if an attempt is made to stick with available sources.

    A bigger map means a total rework of a mod as anything co-ordinate related requires redoing. I mentioned it elsewhere: it's way more cumbersome and prone to errors to adjust a mod to a bigger map then creating things from scratch.

    As to the Hanzishang map: I have to admit that I have never seen it. Nor would I consider using it - but that's simply my ego as mapper. In this mod the initial goal was to transfer the RTW map (and UI) as close as possible to the original, including wonders that are not coded anymore as they are in RTW.

    Simply copying map files and tinkering a bit with them just isn't my style. I rather create a map from scratch down to proper placement of vegetation and trade resources, sourcing my own terrain files etc.

    If Seether still has energy after this stint then we might toss some idea around about what could be an interesting challenge for a new project.
    Last edited by Gigantus; October 28, 2018 at 03:33 AM.










  10. #50
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    Default Re: Stack spam script

    Quote Originally Posted by moralrelativism View Post
    It seems I previously had some misunderstanding: I assumed the authorization you obtained was for Hanzhishang itself.
    We did work with Pillar Studios for a short time and exchanged content with them, but I haven't had contact with them in years. Their logo is on our splash page.

    Yet the single handicap of the stone-age quality map is just too crippling (it's only 1/4 as large with far fewer cities and features, and the overall level of nuance is equally bare-boned in comparison). For anyone who had seen the standard Hanzhishang map, the current ROTK campaign map (based on Sanguo TW map developed in 2007) just feels too vintage to even inspire interest in playing it.
    I don't really agree with this. I've seen their map and, no disrespect to Pillar Studios or their mod, I didn't feel impressed by their map. While it is larger, it is fairly bland and featureless with a ton of dead space. In all honesty it is, at it's core, the same as our map, except double the X & Y coordinates. Over time we have done a lot of modifications to the map, including the terrain.

    ...such as the character capturing feature that allows the conqueror of a faction to acquire all its historical characters (including the killed, who would be resurrected), or the empire creation feature that allows a player to turn into a new faction (Cao clan becoming Wei, for example) once it meets the condition of declaring its own empire (in a way similar to the re-forging of Arnor in the Third Age mod)
    Hanzhishang, and other similar mods made by Chinese teams, is far more geared to SGYY. Ours is based, almost exclusively, on SGZ, ZZTJ, and the actual history of the Three Kingdoms. If it doesn't fit into the history of the Three Kingdoms, then we're not too interested in it. As to the new faction name, that requires free faction slots, which we don't have. To sort of bypass that, we have traits and ancillaries to give essentially the same effect, minus the faction name.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gigantus View Post
    I am having vague memories of the recruit limit script being disabled after a set number of turns - will have to check on that.
    I was going to ask you about that. In playing an AI hotseat, everything seemed fine until around turn 40 or 45, when recruitment seemed to explode. The script says TurnNumber > 100 *shrug*

    As to top level cities - I think it's only achievable in regions with a high fertility level, need to check here as well, just in case.
    You are correct, sir. And those regions would be Xuchang, Changan, Yecheng, Moling/Jianye, Jiangling, Chengdu, etc., as they can still get the food necessary to grow even when squalor would halt settlements with lower fertility.

    If Seether still has energy after this stint then we might toss some idea around about what could be an interesting challenge for a new project.
    Last edited by Seether; October 28, 2018 at 05:45 AM.
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  11. #51
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    Default Re: Stack spam script

    I just found a download link for han zhi shang 1.03 - will that have the map we are talking about? Going by the faction screen pic it's the same area as our map.

    Our city count is 150 - 199 is max, btw.


    Spoiler for faction selection screen



    Edit: download succeeded

    By the looks of it someone simply doubled the map size (exactly double to the pixel) and took the rough edges off.

    New on the left, ours on the right (magnified for comparison). Same city count as ours: 150
    The large black area on the top left of the new map: an exact fill in of the turquoise in the old map. Bottom right black areas: fill in of light green.

    Spoiler for comparison
    Last edited by Gigantus; October 28, 2018 at 07:48 AM.










  12. #52
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    Default Re: Stack spam script

    While it covers the same area, the actual map size is 2x larger; ours is 190*180, theirs is 380*360 . Plus we also altered a lot of the southern shoreline to accommodate the Jiaozhou faction we added a few versions ago.

    EDIT: Gigantus and myself will discuss this further in the Dev Forum
    Last edited by Seether; October 28, 2018 at 08:23 AM.
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  13. #53
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    Default Re: Stack spam script

    Hanzhishang 1.03 is the earliest official post-beta version that came out more than 5 years ago. For those who have not been following up with Hanzhishang's development, the situation one needs to bear mind is that the mod has been undergoing continual updates and upgrades over the past years, during which substantial new features/contents had been steadily added in. If we take a look at my game, which is a submod based on the standard map of Hanzhishang 1.04 (rolled out in 2015), here is what we can see:

    Yanzhou (Lubu's home turf):

    Click image for larger version. 

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    The mountain terrain with two red Chinese characters slapped on top reads: Taishan (the famous Tai Mountain)
    All of the Five Mountains (Wuyue) are treated as wonders like that

    Central Yizhou (Liu Bei's final base):
    Click image for larger version. 

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    The city in the center is Chengdu

    Youzhou (Areas around Beijing):
    Click image for larger version. 

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    The city in the center is Ji (Beijing). The Pass on the Great Wall in the north is the famous Juyong Pass

    Hetao (The territory of nomadic Xiongnu):
    Click image for larger version. 

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    If we compare that standard map of Hanzhishang with the current ROTK map (which is based on the Sanguo map developed 11 years ago), here is how they respectively look like with Cao Cao' home base zoomed out at the highest camera angle:

    Sanguo map:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Hanzhishang 1.04 Standard Map:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    According to Hanzhishang's official introduction, the map is X4 as large as the ancient Sanguo map (in other words twice the distance). It has 188 regions (as opposed to Sanguo's 150). The greatly expanded distance makes for far more diverse and nuanced game play, for it not only allows for the addition of more settlements (especially the special ones such as the Passes and the historical sites), but also make the map far less swarmed with characters, leaving more space for open field battles, and making the supply system more relevant.


    Since the launching of Hanzhishang back in 2013, it has spawned at least 3 families of major sub-mods, all of which sport some radical overhauls and unique customization. (I will give a more detailed account on that subject in a follow-up posting). The one I have access to is the Sishuiliu2016-EndofYear version of the famous Sishuiliu submod, which is itself the descendant of the SM mod (the latest version SM1.2), which is based on the official Hanzhishang 1.04. (Hanzhishang applies a small numerical scale in its cataloguing of versions - the leap from 1.03 to 1.04 took two years to develop, and is as enormous as the one from Stainless Steel 6.0 to Stainless Steel 6.4). As mentioned earlier, my Chinese language ability is quite limited (I don't have ethnic connections with China; I did however once take Chinese lessons in university and had been to China as an exchange student). As the result I am unable to roam the Chinese total war forums with as much ease as I am able to do here. (Adding to the hassle is the extremely complicated registration process and the XP-based access granting mechanism for downloadable materials that seem to be a fixture of every Chinese mod platforms). I therefore am incapable of obtaining the latest and most advanced version at this point. On a side note, since we are talking about Chinese modding, an intriguing (and ultimately dismaying) paradox is that Chinese modders had developed a wide range of stunningly high quality M2TW mods based on the rich history of China over the past years, only to have their tremendous potential of gaining recognition - genuinely warranted by their impressive outputs - undercut by the prevailing attitude of indifference to the international community. (I guess one potential obstacle is their community's lack of English speaking modders).

    The point I try to make here is that the Hanzhishang based coalition of families of mods in the Chinese modding community is akin to the Third Age mod or the EBII mod on this forum - they are as prodigiously popular and prestigious as they are productive in progressing and prolific in propagating progeny. I myself am not even catching up with the latest development. (On that subject, the latest submod features a map expanded southward all the way to the Hainan Island and Eastward to include the Korean peninsula). Yet even the submod I play(i.e. the one I screen-cut these pictures from), which is nearly two years old, is light years ahead of the original Hanzhishang 1.03 version (which is the first "serial production" version that rolled out right after the beta testing in the August of 2013). We simply can't judge Hanzhishang's current state of development based on the initial semi-prototype.
    Last edited by moralrelativism; October 28, 2018 at 09:51 AM.

  14. #54
    Gigantus's Avatar I am not special - I am a limited edition.
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    Default Re: Stack spam script

    Tip for more detailed screen shots.

    Seems they used the 'labeling forts' principle and used an alpha channel skin on a 'flat' character model. We don't have a faction slot left to do that.

    Had a mild amusement with the comparison pic: they certainly haven't managed straightening diagonal coast lines or smoothing them like we did, it's actually easier on a large map.
    Add to that the mountain spikes (Yizhou) plus CivII blocky style ground cover (Hetao) means there is plenty room for improvement. The 'blocky' stuff is due to enlarging of the map and not paying attention to detail, the spikes where already a problem in our source map, usually the result of wholesale resizing of a regular height map, basically using this principle of map creating (auto fill color with grey scale). Simply adjusting descr_terrain values (as done in the 1.03 version) doesn't help much. Attention to detail does.
    Good effort otherwise where ground cover is concerned.

    Two other reasons why mod's by Chinese don't gain recognition outside China is the indiscriminate use of material by other modders (Russians are quite into it as well) and the occasional inclusion of an cracked executable, sometimes even the whole base game on top of that. Translation is an obvious stumbling block but that is handled relatively well if it is done, alternatively non Chinese fans fill the gap to provide English text files.

    Edit: I was digging a bit deeper into the coding and I am left with a simple question: What's the sense of doubling a map's size if you then more then double the movement range of characters (80-->200)? It totally negates any argument about increased strategic options if it takes you less moves to get from A to B then before. Never mind the vastly increased load on path finding and increased turn times caused by it.

    All of the above is reason enough for me to make a mod from scratch where map change implications are concerned. It may actually present a worthy team challenge.
    Last edited by Gigantus; October 28, 2018 at 09:38 PM.










  15. #55
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    Default Re: Stack spam script

    Thank you Master Gigantus for detailed reply & instructions!
    I totally agree with your assessment of the map (as if I actually had the expertise to even have an independent opinion on the matter LOL) In the defense of the developers, the version I am playing now is the a submod of a submod dating to 2016. It seems the newest versions had these visual/movement problems resolved, based on what I can see on my friends' screen who had been keeping with the updates (I can't get my hands on the new versions, given the download access restriction problem I mentioned earlier, which had become ubiquitous across Chinese modding forums in the past years as a ploy by developers to actually monetize their contents. While my friend - a Chinese national who has Chinese bank accounts back at home - doesn't mind paying for his membership, such membership is beyond my reach given I don't have the exclusive Chinese bank accounts these forums accept money from, even if I consent to pay for it - a purely hypothetical "if").

    What I discussed about the new map is a matter of conceptual proposal. As a fan of M2TW who had been playing different mods for years, and had been directly benefited from your personal teachings/tutorials through messaging in the past, I'd gladly bow to your better insight and decision-making as to what approach to take regarding the issue I broached here. (While you may not necessarily remember me, since my activities on the forum are a bit on-and-off, we had had communications on multiple occasions in the past, with me making inquires on matters mostly related to the SS & Broken Crescent. Your responses had always been as prompt as they were on-point. Kudos to your continuous mentor-ship on the forum!)

    On the issue of the limited recognition received by Chinese modders, their "inclusion of an cracked executable" is not as "occasional" as unfailingly pervasive - such that neither me nor my Chinese friend had encountered a Chinese mod that DOESN'T include the executable in the downloadable materials. It's hardly surprising inasmuch as the free cracked versions of M2TW, and for that matter, all Total War games, are downloadable everywhere on any random websites. That doesn't however indicate an uniform attitude of sweeping disregard concerning copyrights in general, contrary to the stereotype in the West. The actual reality is one of a mind-blowing paradox: while the copyrights of the patented games are treated as irrelevant as the communists are treated in the US, the copyrights of the mods themselves are guarded jealously. There are hardly any high-quality free mods, as most professional modders tend to hook up with modding forums with monetized VIP memberships that sell mods for money while offering the original game for free as a side gift. Many of these mods incorporate into their files some elaborate anti-grafting features, even the customized executable that makes logging into their forum account mandatory for initiating the game. So they clearly care about copyrights, so much so that open places like TWC that offer freely downloadable mods are quite the rarities. What they don't care about are the copyrights they have to pay for, as opposed to collecting money from . Long story short, the culture is a bit different, so is the ethics.
    Last edited by moralrelativism; November 03, 2018 at 01:01 AM.

  16. #56
    Gigantus's Avatar I am not special - I am a limited edition.
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    Default Re: Stack spam script

    Long story short, the culture is a bit different, so is the ethics
    It certainly is, confirming Trump's accusations of the Chinese of a general habit of intellectual property theft isn't a smart move where I am concerned. It's a good explanation why you hardly find Chinese mods outside China.










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